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Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE

 
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Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 2:58:56 AM   
Numdydar

 

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A question came up in a different thread about this topic as to why playing Japan and getting destroyed seems to be better than playing Germany and having the same thing happen. As I am playing two games as Japan and have played one game as Germany, I thought I would let everyone my thoughts about this. These are in no particular order.

Scale. The Pacific is sooo much bigger than Russia. That provides a lot more options as what to do, China, Inida, Oz, oh my . With WitE, it is just Russia. No options for anything else.

Production. Japan has it, the US does not. Even when being overrun, Japan still can decide what to produce to try and effect the Allied advances (not much, but hey, at least you feel like you have a 1% chance, lol). With WitE, Germany's production is fixed, so there is nothing the Axis player can do to help improve things like producing more planes/tanks/etc. I understand why the game was designed this way, but it definately affects the German experience with the game.

Research. Again Japan has it the Allies do not. While not what you would call efficent or even easy, it is possible to get some planes advanced where they can come available earlier than historical. Will it change the outcome? No. But again it allows Japan to see how the new models will fare against the Allies. With WitE as Germany, want Tigers or Panthers in 42, sol, jet fighters same. So again the Germany player has to play with his hand as delt without even an outside chance to effect the historical result with newer equipment gotten sooner. Again unsterstand the why, but the game would be sooo much better with it.

Alternative Campaign. As part of the official release, there is a GC that allows Japan to be better prepared for war in 12/41. This is not a fantasy scenerio but a plausable path/option Japan could have accomplished if they had done things different earlier. WitE has nothing like this in the official release. One simple solution for the release could have had a Germany that did NOT go into the Balkins for example and have them attack Russia earlier than June '41. Or a scenerio where Germany would have waited until '42 to attack. Either of these would allow more options in the release that what is currently available and possibly allow a beter game experience from the Axis player.

These are the major points as to why I think playing Japan to distruction is more fun than Germany's collaspe in WitE. Your comments/opnions are welcome.

Edit: Just can't spell any more

< Message edited by Numdydar -- 10/19/2011 1:31:57 PM >
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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 6:39:26 AM   
darbymcd

 

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Nymdydar, I totally agree with you with regard to the need for a 'scen 2' version for this game. lots of the agita around this game seems to be wanting the germans to have a better chance. or maybe a reluctant admiral type, going through and deciding a plausible alternative history, like you said, no balkans, or no north africa, or maybe japan invades the east. you could totally postulate accelerated weapon system introduction or much more efficient industrial output earlier.

I think you are right on about some of the things that make japan more fun to play, they are the losing side but they have options. in this game russia has the options which makes it fun for the first 12 months while they are getting kicked around. but when the germans are in punching bag mode, they don't get to have the fun options.

I also think that the WitP community as a whole, because of the nature of the conflict, are a bit more into the game as historical. Most of the real complaints here seem to be of the 'but the germans can't WIN' variety.

< Message edited by darbymcd -- 10/19/2011 6:41:15 AM >

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 9:05:39 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Good points Nymdyar! It is not really about that the Germans should have a chance to win, but that the game would be more interesting if it offered the Germans more options.Then of course there is a little problem with play balance in that the Germans seem to lose the war too fast, being fated to be steamrollered in 1943 or 1944.


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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 2:26:52 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: darbymcd

Nymdydar, I totally agree with you with regard to the need for a 'scen 2' version for this game. lots of the agita around this game seems to be wanting the germans to have a better chance. or maybe a reluctant admiral type, going through and deciding a plausible alternative history, like you said, no balkans, or no north africa, or maybe japan invades the east. you could totally postulate accelerated weapon system introduction or much more efficient industrial output earlier.



Given the same people designed both games, it is stricking that WitPAE has a plasible alternative campaign for Japan while WitE does not. Especially since it seems like it would have been so easy to do. Maybe they just ran out of time or thought modders would do it? Or more likely it was much harder to do than what it looks like to those of us outside of the game design

Of course the issue with mods is that there is a large number of players that will never use them. So if it is not part of the 'official' package, only a small minority will use them.

At least with Japan, even while getting pounded into dust, the player can feel like they have some control over 'their' version of Japan even in the historical campaign. As soon as the game begins, the Japanese player CAN change history which WILL effect the pace of the game, want to attack PH twice or three times np, reconfigure Japan's entire industry the way you want fine, go for it, invade Oz instead (or in addition to India) good luck . So it is the player's Japan that will face the Allied onslaught, not the historical one. This is true even in both campaigns, but even more so in scenerio 2.

With Germany, you are dealt Hilter's hand and the player has no way to change it to 'your version'. To be blunt, WitPAE would have the same type of threads as this forum if the player was forced to use Japan's historical output without any ability to change it at all. So the Russians have the ability to make the Russian forces a version of what they think it should be AND the hindsight not to do the stupid things Stalin did. All Germay gets is the hindsight which is no where near enough to compensate for getiing your butt kicked for three years (or more).

The bottom line is that there are players that have no issue being on the (massively, lol) losing side as long as they have SOME ability to make that side into a different/their vision of that side than the historical one. Playing the losing side is hard enough without being forced to use the historical forces and timeline. It is no wonder why the two games give such a different experience to losing

One other major difference between the two games is that WitPAE goes to 3/46 with 'victory' being modified by the number of nukes the Allies use, i.e. three or more nukes and the victory levels drop by one for the Allies.

WitE can go to 10/45. Really? Anytimeline extension after 7/45 would need to account for atomic bombs somehow. If Germany was still holding on in the East by then, the Allies would have been drpping bombs on Germany rather than Japan. This seems to be totally absent. Hitler would not have to worry about suiside in the bunker at that point . Of course as no one seems to survive that long it is not really an issue

The bottom line for me anyway is that WitPAE gives ME the ability to lose using MY strategy with production, research, what area of the Pacific I want to concentrate on versus using Hitler's model, Hitler's research, etc. To be on the losing side it is not enought to just be able to correct the military mistakes, the player has to be able to correct the economic and political ones (i.e no infighting between IJN and IJA) as well. Because, no matter how effective you are with the military, it is the economic and research that truely shapes the events of the battles and the outcome of the war.

To give the winning side even more control has truely unbalanced the game to the point where it is unplayable for me. Which is sad as I played the hell out of the first one. The only way this game can be fixed to make it the classic it should be imho is to either allow Germany production/Research (expansion maybe?, I'd buy it ) or remove the Russian production and force them to also follow the historical path. At least this way it would truly be a game of equals versus what it is now.

(in reply to darbymcd)
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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 3:18:05 PM   
dazoline II


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You have a bit of apples vs. oranges comparison.

Your looking at WitE a year or so out from release while WITP is almost 10 years out and WITP-AE is around 3. My time lines maybe out as I'm not going to go and research the dates. WitE is still supported by the original developers while WITP-AE was at first a mod then an entire rewrite. before AE WITP didn't have scenario #2 or Ironman.

The guys who made AE took the advice of the guys who made WITP and made their own scenarios. So likewise one could take the same advice in WitE and make a scenario #2 favouring a different setup within the parameters of the game.

Or do what AE did and beg/borrow the code, do an entire re write for free and put out a great enhancement along with scenario #2.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 3:41:13 PM   
Klydon


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I think the vast majority of players acknowledge that Japan had no chance to "win" the war. (Japan herself realized that; their goal was to get to the point where the Allies were tired of the war and negotiated a settlement to the war in favor of Japan).

In addition, there is interest in giving the Japanese a shot from the standpoint that while Japan had their run of 6 months, the battle of Midway was an absolute crusher when the 4 carriers went down. Most players probably feel they can avoid that issue and perhaps can continue Japan's run of victories, especially if they can actually achieve what they set out to do with Midway and that is finish off the US carrier force. Should they be able to achieve that, they would likely continue a victory run for another year at least.

The Eastern front has no such clear cut war changing battle in a period of a couple of days like Midway. Some might point to Stalingrad, but that situation took months to develop. There are some campaigns the Germans have a choice with (what shape will a 1942 campaign take for example).

I think there are far fewer players that feel Germany had no chance of an outright military victory over Russia. Opinion on this varies a lot.

There are some varients out there, but if they are not done by the staff as an "official" release, they have been pretty much ignored by the community.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 3:59:20 PM   
Q-Ball


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I have been a WITP-AE player, and I like the Scenario #2 there. But that's because the Japanese are so behind. Historically, while German victory chances were slim, Japanese victory chances were absolutely and completely zero, IMO, and pretty much everyone's opinion.

But some pro-German variants might be interesting when the game is at a balanced state. Some ideas:

1. GERMAN TANK PRODUCTION: Accelerated priority given to AFV production; accelerate certain T-34-killing models, and increase production. Add more Tank SUs, particularly Stugs.

2. BULGARIANS: Just for fun!

3. DELAYED ALLIED COMMITMENT: More units available in 1943/44

4. UKRAINIAN and/or BALTIC PUPPET STATES: Including troops

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Post #: 7
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 4:23:21 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball
2. BULGARIANS: Just for fun!


Really, this one may well overpower the system.

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Post #: 8
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 5:36:51 PM   
bwheatley

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

A question came up in a different thread about this topic as to why playing Japan and getting destroyed seems to be better than playing Germany and having the same thing happen. As I am playing two games as Japan and have played one game as Germany, I thought I would let everyone my thoughts about this. These are in no particular order.

Scale. The Pacific is sooo much bigger than Russia. That provides a lot more options as what to do, China, Inida, Oz, oh my . With WitE, it is just Russia. No options for anything else.

Production. Japan has it, the US does not. Even when being overrun, Japan still can decide what to produce to try and effect the Allied advances (not much, but hey, at least you feel like you have a 1% chance, lol). With WitE, Germany's production is fixed, so there is nothing the Axis player can do to help improve things like producing more planes/tanks/etc. I understand why the game was designed this way, but it definately affects the German experience with the game.

Research. Again Japan has it the Allies do not. While not what you would call efficent or even easy, it is possible to get some planes advanced where they can come available earlier than historical. Will it change the outcome? No. But again it allows Japan to see how the new models will fare against the Allies. With WitE as Germany, want Tigers or Panthers in 42, sol, jet fighters same. So again the Germany player has to play with his hand as delt without even an outside chance to effect the historical result with newer equipment gotten sooner. Again unsterstand the why, but the game would be sooo much better with it.

Alternative Campaign. As part of the official release, there is a GC that allows Japan to be better prepared for war in 12/41. This is not a fantasy scenerio but a plausable path/option Japan could have accomplished if they had done things different earlier. WitE has nothing like this in the official release. One simple solution for the release could have had a Germany that did NOT go into the Balkins for example and have them attack Russia earlier than June '41. Or a scenerio where Germany would have waited until '42 to attack. Either of these would allow more options in the release that what is currently available and possibly allow a beter game experience from the Axis player.

These are the major points as to why I think playing Japan to distruction is more fun than Germany's collaspe in WitE. Your comments/opnions are welcome.

Edit: Just can't spell any more



I've been saying this for a year and i completely agree. It might have to wait until fans band together to make WitE:FM similar to how fans all worked together to redo WitP:AE.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 5:40:13 PM   
Schmart

 

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One thing that continuously bothers me about WITE, is that you can manually upgrade (or down grade) air unit aircraft, but ground unit AFV upgrade is automatic. It just has never made sense to me. In one game, many of my Mot Divs were getting their PzIV's upgraded to Panthers, while at the same time I still had some Panzer Divs running around with Pz38's! WTF. Manual AFV upgrades IMHO would give a good chrome boost to the game.

I understand that WITE is still relatively new and that there are still many bugs to work out (as well as fine tuning the game balance), but it very much lacks a degree of chrome to make the Axis side enjoyable beyond 1941. I'm not saying there needs to be unrealistic/unhistorical options to make the game easier to win for the Axis. But as Numdydar says, if I'm almost guarranteed to lose, then at least make the experience of losing enjoyable and fun! Otherwise, the game loses its re-playability value, which is where I am at now. Right now, the Axis side feels a little more like a strict simulation, whereas the Russian side has far more options such as building whatever units they want, which leads to an unrealistic Soviet force structure as players don't know how they are supposed to be building their army along historical lines. This in turn IMO unbalances the game results in an unhistorical/unrealistic way.

< Message edited by Schmart -- 10/19/2011 5:42:09 PM >

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 5:40:50 PM   
gradenko_2000

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
Given the same people designed both games, it is stricking that WitPAE has a plasible alternative campaign for Japan while WitE does not. Especially since it seems like it would have been so easy to do. Maybe they just ran out of time or thought modders would do it?

It should be noted that the people who developed War in the East are NOT the same people that developed War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition. The WITP:AE team is completely different.

What *is* the same are the designers of WITE and the original, non-Admiral's Edition of WITP, and the latter game had no alt-history scenarios. Hakko Ichiu, the Reluctant Admiral and Ironman-Japan scenarios really are in fact packages created by third-party modders.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 5:43:31 PM   
Flaviusx


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My own view is that the reasons for this being the case do not lie in game design at all, and this is going to be an issue in any East Front game.



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Post #: 12
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/19/2011 5:45:13 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I think there are far fewer players that feel Germany had no chance of an outright military victory over Russia. Opinion on this varies a lot.



Here, you begin to grasp the nettle of the problem. But that's only part of it.


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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 6:07:05 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dazoline II

You have a bit of apples vs. oranges comparison.

Your looking at WitE a year or so out from release while WITP is almost 10 years out and WITP-AE is around 3. My time lines maybe out as I'm not going to go and research the dates. WitE is still supported by the original developers while WITP-AE was at first a mod then an entire rewrite. before AE WITP didn't have scenario #2 or Ironman.

The guys who made AE took the advice of the guys who made WITP and made their own scenarios. So likewise one could take the same advice in WitE and make a scenario #2 favouring a different setup within the parameters of the game.

Or do what AE did and beg/borrow the code, do an entire re write for free and put out a great enhancement along with scenario #2.


You are correct and a very good point. WitPAE is, as you point out, version 2.0 of the original WitP. But is not this WitE version 2.0 of the original WitE?

Even if you disagree that it is not, it still leave the fact that even the original WitP had the same features for Japan as WitPAE does that I talk about in the OP, Research, Production, Scale, and Alternative options. These are NOT unique to the AE version. Better implemented, more detailed, etc, but still the same basic structure. All of this is still lacking in base version of WitE for Germany.

I should point out that if somehow a WitEFM edition came out 3-4years from now I would definately buy it. Also, I did not much like the original WitP or UV either even though I own both. However, I love WitPAE and am playing the heck out of it since it came out. So all I can do is hope that an enhanced version of WitE will become available that does the same thing for it that AE did for WitP. Otherwise it will just sit on my shelf collecting dust.

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Post #: 14
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 6:11:53 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I think there are far fewer players that feel Germany had no chance of an outright military victory over Russia. Opinion on this varies a lot.



All that Germany doing better than historical means is that Germany would have won the nuculer lottery versus Japan

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 6:44:58 AM   
Rasputitsa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

I think there are far fewer players that feel Germany had no chance of an outright military victory over Russia. Opinion on this varies a lot.



All that Germany doing better than historical means is that Germany would have won the nuculer lottery versus Japan


Any German victory would have to come in 1941, or early 1942 at the latest. The German declaration of war on the US was stupidly unnecessary for them (although a relief for the Allies). A triumphant Germany in Europe and the Mediterranean should have been able to sit out the Pacific war, which anyway may have been prevented by greater German success in the East. Encouraging Japan to join in the dismemberment of Russia, rather than resort to the Co-prosperity sphere in SE Asia and conflict with the US.

The nuclear option need not have become a foregone conclusion to the war, although it was likely to have appeared sometime in the future. The development of the bomb required such a huge investment, it could have only been triggered by a direct and immediate threat to the US.



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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 7:51:07 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
You are correct and a very good point. WitPAE is, as you point out, version 2.0 of the original WitP. But is not this WitE version 2.0 of the original WitE?

Not quite. To make a comparison:

Pacific War -> War in the Pacific -> War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition
War in Russia -> War in the East -> We're-not-here-yet

quote:


Even if you disagree that it is not, it still leave the fact that even the original WitP had the same features for Japan as WitPAE does that I talk about in the OP, Research, Production, Scale, and Alternative options. These are NOT unique to the AE version. Better implemented, more detailed, etc, but still the same basic structure. All of this is still lacking in base version of WitE for Germany.

The original WITP did NOT have alternative scenarios, just as WITE does NOT have alternative scenarios. Yes, you can make ahistorical movements and strategies, but the starting position is/was always historical.

Yes, the original WITP did have ahistorical scenarios, but they were produced by 3rd-party modders, so the expectation of WITE having similarly ahistorical scenarios will probably fall under the same burden of those modders.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 17
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 8:10:32 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

IMHO the Japan lost the war when they attacked Pearl Harbor.

Similarly, IMHO, Germany lost war the moment they attacked Soviet Union.


Why?

The Soviet Union was no France - it was huge huge mass of land that needed to be conquered and with great production and enormous manpower!

If the Soviet Union was the size of France then, perhaps, the Germans might have won - but realistically they simply didn't have a chance of winning a war against Soviet Union...

Why couldn't the German won?

Well... first of all... one should look at the history... Russians would not surrender that easily... even if the Moscow and Leningrad fell they would continue to fight...their history is strong showcase that they would never yield...

Napoleon thought he could conquer Imperial Russia - he was very wrong. Also Germany in WWI knew of Napoleon's mistakes and even though they had some spectacular victories and captured huge amount of prisoners they were still unable to win - instead they signed a peace treaty of Brest-Litovsk.

Nazi Germany in WWII knew all about Napoleon and all about WWI (where so many of the officers still active in WWII fought in WWI) but still they tried - and failed...


On a sidenote - if Germany pursued the European war against Great Britain things might have been different - although invading UK is out of the question (British channel was impenetrable obstacle) the Germans might have tried going south again British interest:

Gibraltar
Malta
Egypt

Lucky for us and whole world Hitler was madman and he went for Soviet Union instead...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 18
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 8:16:36 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

One other thing that is, IMHO, very important...


In WitE the "victory" for Axis should be the fact that player is better than history - in other words if he/she kept the Russians away from Berlin by the time the historic WWII in Europe ended (May 1945)!


This is along the same lines as Japanese in WitP and WitP-AE - the "victory" for them would be if the Japanese player could hold Allies further from the Home Islands that it was historically (August 1945)!


Total victory in WitE for Germans and Japanese for WitP / WitP-AE should be and is almost impossible because this is how things historically were - if we want historic game / simulation and not some sort of fantasy this is how things are...


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
Sighted typo fixed.

< Message edited by Apollo11 -- 10/20/2011 8:18:29 AM >


_____________________________



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A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 19
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 9:35:41 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
In WitE the "victory" for Axis should be the fact that player is better than history - in other words if he/she kept the Russians away from Berlin by the time the historic WWII in Europe ended (May 1945)!

This is along the same lines as Japanese in WitP and WitP-AE - the "victory" for them would be if the Japanese player could hold Allies further from the Home Islands that it was historically (August 1945)!

Total victory in WitE for Germans and Japanese for WitP / WitP-AE should be and is almost impossible because this is how things historically were - if we want historic game / simulation and not some sort of fantasy this is how things are...

I believe part of why the 'acceptance' of the historical fate of the War in the East is so different from the War in the Pacific is the perception that it was a very close-run thing. The Germans got tantalizingly close to Moscow, got quite close to Stalingrad, and all in all there are several instances where one might have drastically changed the course of the war if only some alternate decisions were taken.

That is, there's basically no way no how that the Japanese were ever going to surmount an eventual defeat at the hands of the US, and that plays into a Japanese player's psyche and approach, but a German player may take the scenario he's presented with grim determination to just tip the scales a little more into victory.

(Of course, it goes without saying that there's no guarantee of a Soviet armistice even in the event of the big three cities falling, but simply being able to march into the Kremlin would be a notable achievement even if the Reds would have fought on in a parallel universe)

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 20
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 9:49:53 AM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

In WitE the "victory" for Axis should be the fact that player is better than history - in other words if he/she kept the Russians away from Berlin by the time the historic WWII in Europe ended (May 1945)!

This is along the same lines as Japanese in WitP and WitP-AE - the "victory" for them would be if the Japanese player could hold Allies further from the Home Islands that it was historically (August 1945)!

Total victory in WitE for Germans and Japanese for WitP / WitP-AE should be and is almost impossible because this is how things historically were - if we want historic game / simulation and not some sort of fantasy this is how things are...

I believe part of why the 'acceptance' of the historical fate of the War in the East is so different from the War in the Pacific is the perception that it was a very close-run thing. The Germans got tantalizingly close to Moscow, got quite close to Stalingrad, and all in all there are several instances where one might have drastically changed the course of the war if only some alternate decisions were taken.

That is, there's basically no way no how that the Japanese were ever going to surmount an eventual defeat at the hands of the US, and that plays into a Japanese player's psyche and approach, but a German player may take the scenario he's presented with grim determination to just tip the scales a little more into victory.

(Of course, it goes without saying that there's no guarantee of a Soviet armistice even in the event of the big three cities falling, but simply being able to march into the Kremlin would be a notable achievement even if the Reds would have fought on in a parallel universe)


The fall of Moscow and/or Leningrad and/or Stalingrad would not mean the end of Soviet fighting... on contrary...

Even if all three cities listed above fell the Soviets would still have large army, large production deep in the back (out of German reach) and even more resolve to fight!

Like I wrote in the first message I wrote - the Soviet Union was not France - we simply can't objectively "judge" Soviets by Western USA/European standards (similarly how we can't objectively "judge" Japanese by those same USA/Western European standards)...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 21
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 11:00:10 AM   
veji1

 

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Well I can see the danger here of getting dragged in an endless debate about "should the German be given a better chance to win the game?". From my point of view this isn't the issue. I haven't bought the game (not enough time and major risk of divorce if I did!) so my comments surely must be taken with a grain of salt but I think the issue lies not in 41 but in summer of 42 onwards for Germany in this game.

From then on I think Germany having a bit more flexibility on how to organise its forces, which SUs to have and use, and adapt its TOE depending on how it wants to play the game would make sense. I mean for example the game has inbuilt the creation of AGA and AGB based on a set of circumstances. Why can't that type of options not be opened to the player more often ?

There are ideas to be dug here, but I suppose this would be for the community to do if the editor allows it.

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 11:09:03 AM   
76mm


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The Germans' inability to create new HQ really seems rather odd...

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 12:50:16 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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WitP and the Admiral's edition are not really two different games. It's the same game engine, code. AE is simply a forum's creature. Many new features are added, map is different, OOB has been reworked. If you have played AE you won't play WitP. And if you play -as I do- the Da Big Babes mod (logistics are even more realistic), you won't play stock AE either

I'm pretty certain this is what is going to happen with WitE so I guess people should be patient... or start modding

The thing I am missing in WitE is the ability to make defensive positions behind the front-line. Yes, you can do it but it's very expensive (Fortified Regions). The Sec Regiments are now disbanded and the brigades can't dig that much (the Strategig Reserves are not here to dig, they are needed to react here and there). The historical fact is the Soviets had created 10 ENGINEER ARMIES to fortify many places (disbanded in 1943 if I remember correctly) They are more or less in the game. The RR thing. But they won't do ANYTHING if a real, concrete unit is not present in x hex. As opposed to really having what the Soviets had: the engineer armies I have mentioned: "send 1st Engineer Army to Voronezh area [maybe 10 hexes BEHIND the front] and start digging fortifications"...

And still, with the current game, if a Soviet player makes quite many mistakes (and no one is perfect) then MAYBE they will not even get to the Reich frontier... So if you strenghten the Germans even more maybe they will not even get to Minsk...

No matter what, in WitP and AE (mods included) the Japanese are doomed. The US will ALWAYS produce astronomical quantities of materiel. These forces alone will crush A N Y Japanese defence... I mean the outcome will always be "historical". Remember the allies only need to land in Marianas Islands for example. From there er... an A Bomb will be dropped. Game over

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 10/20/2011 1:03:20 PM >


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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 12:55:22 PM   
jomni


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To OP... the reasons you gave that makes playing Japan more fun are the reasons why I don't like playing Japan in WITP. :)  To many things to do and worry about but you still lose anyway. If you don't do them well, your loss becomes quicker.

< Message edited by jomni -- 10/20/2011 12:58:07 PM >


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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 1:05:04 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Jonmi, in Uncommon valor I was possibly one of the only players that played (PBEM) a historical campaign as JAPANESE. I did not have the carriers sunk in Midway. Only the Shokaku, Zuikaku and Co. It was a lot of fun so...

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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 1:24:37 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

Jonmi, in Uncommon valor I was possibly one of the only players that played (PBEM) a historical campaign as JAPANESE. I did not have the carriers sunk in Midway. Only the Shokaku, Zuikaku and Co. It was a lot of fun so...


Oh I played plenty campaigns in UV and WitP (much much less in WitP-AE due to WitE development) via PBEM as Japanese...

I won many of those games (especially in UV - once even in game that was continued by "Mogami" when original Allied player surrendered)...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 27
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/20/2011 9:22:18 PM   
Mike13z50


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar
You are correct and a very good point. WitPAE is, as you point out, version 2.0 of the original WitP. But is not this WitE version 2.0 of the original WitE?

Not quite. To make a comparison:

Pacific War -> War in the Pacific -> War in the Pacific Admiral's Edition
War in Russia -> War in the East -> We're-not-here-yet


Missed a couple there:
War in Russia (1984)==>Second Front (1990)==>Gary Grigsby's War in Russia (1993)==>Gary Grigsby's War in the East (2010)

In the 1984 War in Russia you could build units as the Germans and your rail repair units could lay down new tracks!


< Message edited by Mike13z50 -- 10/20/2011 9:26:55 PM >

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Post #: 28
RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/21/2011 1:47:33 AM   
jomni


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike13z50

Missed a couple there:
War in Russia (1984)==>Second Front (1990)==>Gary Grigsby's War in Russia (1993)==>Gary Grigsby's War in the East (2010)

In the 1984 War in Russia you could build units as the Germans and your rail repair units could lay down new tracks!



Yeah but you end up with loads of Tiger II divisions that make it very gamey.


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RE: Japan in WitPAE versus Germany in WitE - 10/21/2011 2:59:29 AM   
el hefe


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Why is that odd?

quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

The Germans' inability to create new HQ really seems rather odd...



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