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First Winter/Blizzard Redux

 
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First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 10/16/2011 4:03:34 PM   
Marquo


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Any thoughts on how the difference between 1.05 xx and previous versions on how the Axis and Soviets may want to approach the 1st blizzard?

Since the 1:1 rule is still in effect for the first blizzard, is there any disincentive to attacking all along the front? Is is any less manageable for the Axis with the new fort rules? Has the Axis been further neutered for this blizzard or what? Some want to move units all teh way back to Poland or Germany to refit; is there really any advantage to this over being at least 10 hexes away from the closest supplied Soivet unit in terms of refit?

Marquo
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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 10/16/2011 4:31:58 PM   
Flaviusx


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The big difference is the fort change. Decay will eliminate anything not occupied quite rapidly and at the same time it's very difficult to dig in inclement weather. As the weather flips over and the initiative switches from one side to the other, this will create opportunities and dangers. If you press an offensive too hard you can run into some real trouble during these weather changes.

From the Soviet perspective, it becomes very dangerous to keep pressing forward by the beginning of February. The old fort spam won't be there anymore. The reduction in manpower and armaments in 1942 also indirectly affects this: it's very hard to bring up to speed all your shells and keep up the blizzard offensive at the same time, and you'll have fewer units capable of digging as a result. Nor will single brigades get anywhere so far as entrenching goes in poor weather, not without massive support from urban labor or construction SUs.

Likewise, the German can find himself in an extremely awkward position come December.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 10/16/2011 4:33:40 PM >


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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 10/17/2011 11:39:04 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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Besides the fortifications, there are the changes with morale, armaments and manpower, the latter already implemented in 1.04. Loss ratios are now very meaningful for the Red Army: adjusting the attacks to maximize the use of the 1:1 rule might well mean the demise of the Red Army in March.

Soviet and Axis players should take in mind that the climate is the real Axis killer, not the Red Army. The Red Army should focus on denying Axis troops shelter, so the weather can do its job. Now this can prove to be significantly harder than under 1.04.

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 10/17/2011 2:49:26 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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I think this is an interesting topic. Just the effect of winter on entrenchments will make it play out far differently. As the Germans, don't expect a unit pulled back to have entrenchments in two turns - therefore the winter casualties will be far greater. As the Soviets, don't rely on those magical frontline entrenchments to appear at the end of the blizzard, and if they advance too far they will get spanked in March.

It is something to think about.

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 10/17/2011 3:04:23 PM   
ComradeP

 

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On the other hand, lower attrition and Hiwi's will generally result in the Germans being in a better shape post-blizzard than they would be before.

Also, to avoid confusion about this
quote:

The reduction in manpower and armaments in 1942
The Soviet manpower modifier decreases, but the Soviet armament output still increases relative to 1941. It's just 130% instead of 200% now.

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 10/17/2011 3:38:50 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Also, to avoid confusion about this
quote:

The reduction in manpower and armaments in 1942
The Soviet manpower modifier decreases, but the Soviet armament output still increases relative to 1941. It's just 130% instead of 200% now.


Does it increase from 130%? I missed that on the patch notes.

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 10/17/2011 3:57:47 PM   
ComradeP

 

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For the Soviets, it goes from 100% to 130% and stays there for the rest of the war, as opposed to going from 100% to 200% and staying there like in previous versions.

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 10/17/2011 4:00:01 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

For the Soviets, it goes from 100% to 130% and stays there for the rest of the war, as opposed to going from 100% to 200% and staying there like in previous versions.


Ah, now I get it. Thank you Comrade!

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 10/17/2011 4:33:19 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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Just coming out of the blizzard into the mud of april in a game with Hoooper with me playing axis.

Soviet army seems to me to be a little more brittle than it used to be.
PDH is right in that overextended russians can get crunched a little more easily in a snow turn after the blizzard is over.
The Hiwi's are having a effect, my german army has recovered much more quickly than in other games in 1.04.xxxxx
Air War to me still seems annoying. (I'm not saying its broken, but it IS frustrating to get bombed into oblivion)(
Forts seem to be more of a non-factor in both the attack and defense. They are nice if you have them but not totally necessary to live.
Gaining more depth in '41 and then falling back ahead of the red tide in the winter and early '42 seems to be better than trying to hold a line through 4 or more turns of pounding.
Late january and into february it is possible to hold a line, if you have your level 2 foxholes and some woods to hide in. Two divisions in a hex will get you a 6 or 8 cv (or more). Slows the russians down considerably.
Russians can still isolate germans that dont pay attention, and attacking for the germans in the blizzard is still very dangerous.
Russians can (and will) still attack all along the front BUT they do not seem able to sustain it very long.


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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/10/2011 2:25:21 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Any thoughts on how the difference between 1.05 xx and previous versions on how the Axis and Soviets may want to approach the 1st blizzard?

Since the 1:1 rule is still in effect for the first blizzard, is there any disincentive to attacking all along the front? Is is any less manageable for the Axis with the new fort rules? Has the Axis been further neutered for this blizzard or what? Some want to move units all teh way back to Poland or Germany to refit; is there really any advantage to this over being at least 10 hexes away from the closest supplied Soivet unit in terms of refit?

Marquo



MWHAHAHA... you will soon know the answer

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/10/2011 3:18:32 AM   
M60A3TTS

 

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The latest patch also eliminates air bases as non combat units from preventing fort decay which I thought was appropriate. People on airbases are meant to service aircraft, not dig trenches and clear fields of fire. That likely means an even weaker fort structure now.

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/10/2011 4:04:43 AM   
Marquo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Any thoughts on how the difference between 1.05 xx and previous versions on how the Axis and Soviets may want to approach the 1st blizzard?

Since the 1:1 rule is still in effect for the first blizzard, is there any disincentive to attacking all along the front? Is is any less manageable for the Axis with the new fort rules? Has the Axis been further neutered for this blizzard or what? Some want to move units all teh way back to Poland or Germany to refit; is there really any advantage to this over being at least 10 hexes away from the closest supplied Soivet unit in terms of refit?

Marquo



MWHAHAHA... you will soon know the answer



Maybe I already know the answer......

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/10/2011 6:26:28 AM   
Farfarer

 

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Yep it has been a good change. Going into march 42 snow against a very talented German opponent I am braced for the worst, but no matter what it will be a fun, mobile game for both sides.

and yes, I drastically cut back the Pyrrhic victory attacks in the Blizzard, but probably too late. It may seem cool to force 2 Pz divs to retreat, but the guys burying the 5000 dead in forzen ground have another opinion.

< Message edited by Farfarer -- 11/10/2011 6:29:23 AM >

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/16/2011 2:09:02 PM   
Marquo


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Where is it documeted that the blizzard effects from January onward - I have failed to find it in the manual or updates.

Thanks,

Marquo

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/16/2011 2:49:17 PM   
Gandalf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Where is it documeted that the blizzard effects from January onward - I have failed to find it in the manual or updates.

Thanks,

Marquo


Section 22.0 Weather starting on pg 194 of the War in the East Manual v0.29 Oct 26, 2011

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/16/2011 3:13:04 PM   
Marquo


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Gandalf,

Thanks and I made an error: I meant to ask where it is that the blizzard effects dissipate as the winter advances in time.

Thanks

Marquo

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/16/2011 3:38:57 PM   
BigAnorak


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These were the changes made in 1.04 I don't know if any further adjustments were made subsequently.


Rules Changes to First Winter rules (Section 22.3):
(a) (Section 22.3.1) Changed the CV modifications in January 1942 as follows: Attacking CV is divided by 2 (instead of /3). Any missed check (admin or combat skill) causes CV to be further divided by 3 (instead of /4). Defending CV is divided by 1.5 (instead of /2 – previously this was incorrectly listed as /4). Any missed checks causes CV to be further divided by 1.5 (instead of /2). The displayed on counter CVs are divided by 2 for attack and 1.5 for defense (instead of /3 and /2).
(b) (Section 22.3.1) Changed the CV modifications in February 1942 as follows: Attacking CV is divided by 1.5 (instead of /3). Any missed check (admin or combat skill) causes CV to be further divided by 2 (instead of /4). Defending CV is divided by 1.33 (instead of /2 – previously this was incorrectly listed as /4). Any missed checks causes CV to be further divided by 1.33 (instead of /2). The displayed on counter CVs are divided by 1.5 for attack and 1.33 for defense (instead of /3 and /2).
(c) (Section 22.3.2) The percent of damaged elements has been reduced in December 41 so instead of roughly 5-20% the losses are now roughly 1-7% (the damage losses are still reduced by 50% in Jan/Feb 1942). Units subject to this damage will now see their damage reduced if they are in a hex that has a fort level. The amount of the reduction is the fort level squared as follows:
1. Fort Level 1 – 1% reduction
2. Fort Level 2 – 4% reduction
3. Fort Level 3 – 9% reduction
4. Fort Level 4 – 16% reduction
5. Fort Level 5 – 25% reduction
So a unit in a fort level 4 that would have suffered 6% attrition will now suffer roughly 5% attrition.
(d) (Section 22.3.3) The Morale drop for exposed units was reduced from 2 to 1.
(e) (Section 22.3.3) Removed the automatic pre-combat morale reduction of 2 when morale was less than 60.
(f) (Section 22.3.3) Added a loss of 1 morale for non-Finnish Axis units whenever they are attacked and the final end of combat odds are greater than 1:2.
(g) (Section 22.3.4) Axis units tracing supply to a railhead in the affected area (22.3) will have the amount of supply they receive reduced by 25% after all other modifications. (previously it was reduced 50%).
(h) It was always harder for German units to received replacements during the first winter (previously undocumented). It is now even more difficult for them to received replacements during first winter.

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/16/2011 4:42:18 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Gandalf,

Thanks and I made an error: I meant to ask where it is that the blizzard effects dissipate as the winter advances in time.

Thanks

Marquo

Read 22.3.2. The process is explained, but not in exact detail.

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/16/2011 6:58:11 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

Gandalf,

Thanks and I made an error: I meant to ask where it is that the blizzard effects dissipate as the winter advances in time.

Thanks

Marquo


HAHA... as if that was going to save you. Dreams, dreams... The rules don't say a single word about the fresh reserves I am deploying in waves, turn after turn

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/18/2011 7:14:32 AM   
johntoml56

 

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My opponent who has played as the germans under 1.04 and 1.05 stated that the AXIS recovers very quickly from the Blizzard, like 2 months quicker, and is able to mount a major offensive on the first clear turn of 42.

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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/18/2011 1:26:12 PM   
Marquo


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Great news, right TD?

Marquo


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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/18/2011 1:56:47 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Yessss, great news ...

In january, to succeed you need minimum an initial 2:1... when halved => 1:1 => let the massacre begin.

Still... I managed to find lots of victims the same. 36 retreats he he he... Wins wins wins... I should harvest a decent quantity of Guards come the end of blizzard.

And you're lucky. I will not use the cheap little trick which consists in checking the unis "won/lost" thing... "let's see, that one needs one more victory, oh, and that one should not be defeated!"... I imagine the Stavka commanders (or better their bloody accountants) checking these things... It makes a lot of sense eh?!

P.S.: whilst we are at it, I would get rid of the won/lost column. The whole thing is sort of gamey, in my opinion.

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 11/18/2011 2:05:38 PM >


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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/18/2011 2:41:28 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

...P.S.: whilst we are at it, I would get rid of the won/lost column. The whole thing is sort of gamey, in my opinion.


See 11.4 in the manual. Wins and losses are used in determining leader promotions.


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RE: First Winter/Blizzard Redux - 11/18/2011 3:07:10 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Elmo, sorry if I wasn't clear I wanted to say that the player should not see these statistics. They obviously have to stay (guards, and leaders).

I mean, it's the same principle as with the Guards. It we see a leader only needs let's say 2 victories, we might wait (or send him to reserve) or assign him to an army/front which you know is going to harvest the victories needed.

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