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Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine...

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Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 10:08:59 AM

Cannonfodder

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For sinking Saratoga in july 1943? No confirmed sinking but a very large chance....

I would say I lost 60 divebomber and 60 torpedobomber carrier pilots and a couple of betty heroes..

Around 70-80 figher pilots lost for perhaps 30- CAP planes of all sorts destroyed

I am only showing succesful attacks, there are some that lost all planes involved due to scattered attacks..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Aoba Island at 125,150

Weather in hex: Light cloud

Raid detected at 79 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 27 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 45
G4M1 Betty x 41

Allied aircraft
F6F-3 Hellcat x 41

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 13 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 20 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 7 destroyed by flak

Allied aircraft losses
F6F-3 Hellcat: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CV Lexington, Torpedo hits 1
CL Honolulu
CA Chicago, Torpedo hits 1
Afternoon Air attack on Yasawa Islands , at 131,158

Weather in hex: Moderate rain

Raid detected at 80 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 20 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 75
B6N2 Jill x 7
D4Y1 Judy x 15

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 7
P-38E Lightning x 6
P-38F Lightning x 14
P-39D Airacobra x 6
P-40E Warhawk x 33
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 13
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2
F4F-4 Wildcat x 5
F6F-3 Hellcat x 5

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 4 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 4 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 8 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Kittyhawk IA: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 2, heavy damage
AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jul 14, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Yasawa Islands , at 131,158

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 73 NM, estimated altitude 12,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 19 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 60
B6N1 Jill x 15
B6N2 Jill x 29
D4Y1 Judy x 94

Allied aircraft
Kittyhawk IA x 6
P-38E Lightning x 17
P-38F Lightning x 21
P-39D Airacobra x 7
P-40E Warhawk x 34
P-47D2 Thunderbolt x 13
F4F-3 Wildcat x 2
F4F-4 Wildcat x 6
F6F-3 Hellcat x 6

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 7 destroyed
B6N1 Jill: 1 destroyed
B6N2 Jill: 1 destroyed
D4Y1 Judy: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Bomb hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Minneapolis, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Quincy, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA San Juan, Bomb hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Helena, Bomb hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
CLAA Oakland, Bomb hits 5, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chicago, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
DD Eaton, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Woodworth, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires
DD Waller, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
AR Prometheus, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DD Philip, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 10:54:48 AM

Cannonfodder

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And the reward for "most beat up carrier air group EVAH" goes to.... HIYO!

Attachment (1)

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 11:38:35 AM

SgtSwanson

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That's called rolling Box Cars (12 with 2 dice) a crap load of times.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 12:14:37 PM

Terminus

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From: Denmark
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That would be a big fat "no". You've got soooo much air group rebuilding to do now, while the other guy can just stencil out new Essexes...

This is no more a "victory" than the sinking of the Lexington was in real life.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 10/16/2011 12:16:23 PM >

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 12:35:59 PM

Insano

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Actually I would take that. It's messy to be sure but I count

CV Saratoga sunk
2 x CA sunk
2 x CLAA sunk
1 x DD sunk

plus others out of action

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 12:53:58 PM

Terminus

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So what? There's PA-LENTY more to come, and he just put one of his carriers into port whilst waiting for suck-tastic air group replacements. No thanks; losses too heavy.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 1:40:13 PM

beppi

Posts: 382
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From: Austria
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I would say it was more than worth it. Whenever you can sink a carrier or even just escorts for the trade of pilots and planes in a reasonable number against a carrier do it.

Yes there will be more carriers and more escorts. But there will be a time where the allied carrier forces get so strong that you can lose KB and all of its pilots in a few turns without a real cance to sink anything. Pilots can be retrained and planes rebuilt. But carriers are gone.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 1:51:24 PM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

So what? There's PA-LENTY more to come, and he just put one of his carriers into port whilst waiting for suck-tastic air group replacements. No thanks; losses too heavy.

Termy,

Respectfully have to disagree. By 6/43 the IJ player should have hundreds of trained up replacements as well as ample plane inventories for his CV's. I'll take any battle result where I sink enemy CV's with no CV losses of my own as a win. Not only one sunk (I agree, 4 torps will usually do it. But to verify you need to see planes losses as ground losses ... ) but a couple of more out of action for a few months.

Now, if he really doesn't have replacements and planes ready .... well that's a separate issue.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 1:59:44 PM

castor troy

Posts: 12020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

And the reward for "most beat up carrier air group EVAH" goes to.... HIYO!

pumping out lost aircraft shouldn�t be a problem, if they aren�t even in the pool anyway. 200 pilots? Not that hard to replace, three months training time to have them replaced with 70 skilled pilots and even if you lose those non replacable elite pilots in the 80-90 skill range, those with 70 skill works just absolutely fine. I would take that trade anytime because unlike the Japanese player who is able to pump out aircraft and pilots, the Allied can�t replace sunken ships, hence why my goal as the Japanese would always be to sink ships. As the Allied player I would not be happy at all about that outcome. Even you replacement pilot pool should be full of 70 skill pilots at that stage of the war. Sunk a carrier, damaged ships (I don�t see it much of a gain to damage ships though) and nothing that can�t be replaced.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 10/16/2011 2:03:16 PM >

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 2:38:37 PM

Cannonfodder

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My pools are full, the aircraft are in stock... Not in the 70 experience range (ofcourse there are some) as I aim for the 50-70-60, sufficient for good hits.

Getting experience higher (especially bomber experience) is hard as the attack missions take heavy casualties...

In my opinion the japanese player can afford to lose aircraft and pilots... the fleet carriers are irreplacable....

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 10/16/2011 2:41:09 PM >

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 3:01:05 PM

Nemo121

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As Insano saidyouve sunk a CV and several cruiser sized ships as well as some DDs. In return you will have to find 200 replacement pilots and a similar number of planes. Your on-map IJNAF training programme should be graduating 500 to 600 per month at a minimum at this stage of the war and production should replace losses in a similar timeframe. So is it worth it? Well if you can do this once a month it will seriously attrition the Allies. The trick is to do it repeatedly and not just once.

Bottom line though you've removed a strategic asset ( CV TF) at the cost of easily replaceable assets. It'll make your key strategic asset (KB) weak for up to a month though so whatever the Allies can achieve while you are rebuilding heeds to ge taken into account also.

So, it isn't as simple as looking at the losses. It is a matter of the opportunity cost and repeatability.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 3:14:45 PM

Cannonfodder

Posts: 1326
Joined: 10/22/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

As Insano saidyouve sunk a CV and several cruiser sized ships as well as some DDs. In return you will have to find 200 replacement pilots and a similar number of planes. Your on-map IJNAF training programme should be graduating 500 to 600 per month at a minimum at this stage of the war and production should replace losses in a similar timeframe. So is it worth it? Well if you can do this once a month it will seriously attrition the Allies. The trick is to do it repeatedly and not just once.

Bottom line though you've removed a strategic asset ( CV TF) at the cost of easily replaceable assets. It'll make your key strategic asset (KB) weak for up to a month though so whatever the Allies can achieve while you are rebuilding heeds to ge taken into account also.

So, it isn't as simple as looking at the losses. It is a matter of the opportunity cost and repeatability.

Repeatablity is something one can only hope for but I doubt it... I do not believe KB will (or has to be) weak for a month as any decent size base can handle replacing pilots and aircraft if you have them in stock...

I believe a Japanese player has to grasp every chance he gets to counterattack.. In this case a raid gone sour for my esteemed opponent resulting in the loss of Wasp and Saratoga(probably), a CL, at least one CA, a DD , perhaps several other cruisers and DDs and around 150 aircraft of all types (most going down with the wasp and getting ditched after damaging Saratoga)..

My total losses are the before mentioned 200 airframes and pilots, two submarines and a few DDs with several ships receiving varying degrees of damage..

I will declare this a tactical victory..

< Message edited by Cannonfodder -- 10/16/2011 3:16:59 PM >

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 3:26:34 PM

Treetop64

Posts: 723
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From: 519 Redwood City, CA - BASE (Hex 218, 70)
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Yup. The key part is that you still have the carriers. For the Japanese, pilots and planes are a hell of a lot easier to replace than carriers. Had you lost that, then strategically you would have lost the battle, no matter how severe other side's losses were.

Now this is all fine and well had this happened in 1942. You're in mid 1943, however, and as Terminus mentioned, you'll soon be staring at so many Essexes (along with their complete and well trained air compliment) and countless other light carriers, along with plenty of brand-new BBs, CA/CLs, and hundreds of destroyers that you'll forget all about that one Saratoga you sunk just months ago. You won't be able to afford to beat those for the same price you beat the Sara. You'll end up like poor 'ol Ozawa; a fleet of nice carriers with no planes or pilots to decorate them with.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 3:30:03 PM

Cannonfodder

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I firmly believe that the Japanese strategy for 1944/1945 should be to delay an allied advance. You can't really stop the allied player from invading any place but you can force him to use all his might to support any one landing...

I am slightly ahead of historical with my carriers and Arnhem is at around historical losses (he lost more CVEs though).. 1944 will be very interesting!

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 4:11:47 PM

Shark7

Posts: 6346
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

As Insano saidyouve sunk a CV and several cruiser sized ships as well as some DDs. In return you will have to find 200 replacement pilots and a similar number of planes. Your on-map IJNAF training programme should be graduating 500 to 600 per month at a minimum at this stage of the war and production should replace losses in a similar timeframe. So is it worth it? Well if you can do this once a month it will seriously attrition the Allies. The trick is to do it repeatedly and not just once.

Bottom line though you've removed a strategic asset ( CV TF) at the cost of easily replaceable assets. It'll make your key strategic asset (KB) weak for up to a month though so whatever the Allies can achieve while you are rebuilding heeds to ge taken into account also.

So, it isn't as simple as looking at the losses. It is a matter of the opportunity cost and repeatability.

Although, if he's lost no carriers to this point, between all of them he can have 2 good sized carrier groups 4 CV + 2 CVL each, making it even less of an issue as you simply rotate them on duty station. That is while this one rebuilds, the other is out fighting, vice versa.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 9:47:39 PM

inqistor

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I seriously doubt you actually lost (KIA) 200 pilots. Maybe 50, rest should be WIA/MIA. It is posible to check daily loses on one of the screens.

Also, date is quite fortunate. It seems you already began rearming into B6N2, and should be around availability date of new ZERO model, so F/TB planes are in upgrade queue anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Insano

Actually I would take that. It's messy to be sure but I count

CV Saratoga sunk
2 x CA sunk
2 x CLAA sunk
1 x DD sunk

plus others out of action

Well I would say 1xCV, and 1xCA confirmed sunk, and probably:
2xCA, 1xCL, 2xCLAA, 3xDD. Also, cripples can be caught by submarines in the area.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 10:05:18 PM

Cannonfodder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

I seriously doubt you actually lost (KIA) 200 pilots. Maybe 50, rest should be WIA/MIA. It is posible to check daily loses on one of the screens.

Also, date is quite fortunate. It seems you already began rearming into B6N2, and should be around availability date of new ZERO model, so F/TB planes are in upgrade queue anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Insano

Actually I would take that. It's messy to be sure but I count

CV Saratoga sunk
2 x CA sunk
2 x CLAA sunk
1 x DD sunk

plus others out of action

Well I would say 1xCV, and 1xCA confirmed sunk, and probably:
2xCA, 1xCL, 2xCLAA, 3xDD. Also, cripples can be caught by submarines in the area.

Some wia but the pilots were lost above enemy controlled hexes.. also, japanese aircraft burn easy... Pilot casualties checked would confirm around 80 KIA and 80 MIA (which is in game terms, apart from 1-2 who return, the same as KIA)...

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 10:24:47 PM

Canoerebel

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A few elite players might orchestrate something like this just to take advantage of the KB's resluting down-time. But most of us "regular" players have an almost instictive or visceral reluctance to sacrifice a beloved flattop.

In most cases, you'd clearly be enttiled to celebrate a victory under these circumstances. You're never going to be able to accomplish anything if you don't attack. Many times, you've just got to take your best shots.

You've scored a victory against 80% of the opposition you might face. The other 20%...well, those are the tough nuts!

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/16/2011 10:29:30 PM

inqistor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Some wia but the pilots were lost above enemy controlled hexes.. also, japanese aircraft burn easy... Pilot casualties checked would confirm around 80 KIA and 80 MIA (which is in game terms, apart from 1-2 who return, the same as KIA)...

Well, I have seen turns, where even 3 pilots returned the same day. To actually evaluate, what happens with MIA we would have to look into code. IRL they would ditched into sea mostly, and if enemy retreated the hex, you should be able to recover them.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/17/2011 12:21:21 PM

Zigurat666

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

So what? There's PA-LENTY more to come, and he just put one of his carriers into port whilst waiting for suck-tastic air group replacements. No thanks; losses too heavy.

If he's doing his pilot training properly he can replace lost pilots with 70 exp ones.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/17/2011 3:12:48 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zigurat666

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

So what? There's PA-LENTY more to come, and he just put one of his carriers into port whilst waiting for suck-tastic air group replacements. No thanks; losses too heavy.

If he's doing his pilot training properly he can replace lost pilots with 70 exp ones.

Should have 70 XP pilots in the pools, not just in the training groups. I've never had problems keeping good pilots into mid war.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/17/2011 4:52:20 PM

Cannonfodder

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It is not endless pool of 70+ experience pilots ofcourse.. but I have some reserves in that category. Most of my trained pilots have around 50 experience... When the **** hits the fan the elite pilots go down just as easy so it doesn't really matter that much..

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/17/2011 5:30:55 PM

jeffk3510

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I have never played as Japan, but I do know the US can puke out carriers like no ones business.... I am not sure how great of a trade off this is..

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/17/2011 5:49:06 PM

Shark7

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

It is not endless pool of 70+ experience pilots ofcourse.. but I have some reserves in that category. Most of my trained pilots have around 50 experience... When the **** hits the fan the elite pilots go down just as easy so it doesn't really matter that much..

I actually tend to fight with the 70 experience guys, the really good ones go into training command until the end game. So when 1945 roles around, I've got a bunch of 80+ guys waiting for planes.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/17/2011 7:22:52 PM

crsutton

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In mid 1943 it is an excellent trade off for the Japanese player. Not going to win the war mind you but I would take it. The whole purpose of Japanese pilots is to sink ships. If not now, when. Besides with the Japanese player's control of production and training the loss is fairly insignificant.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/17/2011 11:15:32 PM

USS Henrico

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As an Allied player, losing one carrier and having another one take a torpedo without scoring any hits on the opponent's carriers is pretty demoralizing, even in mid 43.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/18/2011 11:38:37 AM

FatR

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In July 1943? Yes. By that point I should be able to replace pilot losses as soon as carriers return to port. Depending on intensity of combat experienced by Japanese carriers before, replacements might be not as good as the old crews, but only in Scen 2 starting KB pilots are so radically better than Exp 50, Skill 70 reserve pilots, that losing them is a big blow. And they likely will be mostly expended by that point anyway. As about mere plane losses, they should be immaterial compared to sinking a carrier.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/23/2011 4:20:25 PM

Chickenboy

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From: Twin Cities, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

So what? There's PA-LENTY more to come, and he just put one of his carriers into port whilst waiting for suck-tastic air group replacements. No thanks; losses too heavy.

Termy,

Respectfully have to disagree. By 6/43 the IJ player should have hundreds of trained up replacements as well as ample plane inventories for his CV's. I'll take any battle result where I sink enemy CV's with no CV losses of my own as a win. Not only one sunk (I agree, 4 torps will usually do it. But to verify you need to see planes losses as ground losses ... ) but a couple of more out of action for a few months.

Now, if he really doesn't have replacements and planes ready .... well that's a separate issue.

I grow tired of finding these threads after PaxMondo. I sound like a dittohead saying that I agree completely with what he adds, but it's the truth. I agree with PaxMondo.

It's not only the sinking of one Allied CV and damaging another CV, but the other ships in that TF got whacked hard too. All told-worth it providing that airframe pool replacements and pilot replacements are (or will soon be) replaceable.

Also, don't equate airframe losses with pilot losses. You may have lost 200 planes, but I doubt that you lost 200 pilots. There are likely some WIAs that you get back after a while, but-in my experience-your pilot losses are usually < airframe losses in total.

So, maybe you only lost 100-150 pilots. That skews the arithmetic further in your favor, in my opinion.

Nice shootin', Tex.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/23/2011 4:22:39 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

quote:

ORIGINAL: inqistor

I seriously doubt you actually lost (KIA) 200 pilots. Maybe 50, rest should be WIA/MIA. It is posible to check daily loses on one of the screens.

Also, date is quite fortunate. It seems you already began rearming into B6N2, and should be around availability date of new ZERO model, so F/TB planes are in upgrade queue anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Insano

Actually I would take that. It's messy to be sure but I count

CV Saratoga sunk
2 x CA sunk
2 x CLAA sunk
1 x DD sunk

plus others out of action

Well I would say 1xCV, and 1xCA confirmed sunk, and probably:
2xCA, 1xCL, 2xCLAA, 3xDD. Also, cripples can be caught by submarines in the area.

Some wia but the pilots were lost above enemy controlled hexes.. also, japanese aircraft burn easy... Pilot casualties checked would confirm around 80 KIA and 80 MIA (which is in game terms, apart from 1-2 who return, the same as KIA)...

Another post I should have read before replying...

This is an excellent exchange. Full stop.

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RE: Would you trade 200 pilots and a submarine... - 10/23/2011 4:24:03 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 15255
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From: Twin Cities, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

It is not endless pool of 70+ experience pilots ofcourse.. but I have some reserves in that category. Most of my trained pilots have around 50 experience... When the **** hits the fan the elite pilots go down just as easy so it doesn't really matter that much..

Again, the EXP levels don't matter as much as their respective skills (NavT, NavB, Sweep, etc.) Your 50 EXP pilots may have quite sufficient skills to contribute to the reformed carrier groups.

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Post #: 30