Beware of copyright law robbery.

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Beware of copyright law robbery.

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Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 12:48:23 PM

Perturabo

Posts: 2003
Joined: 11/17/2007
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If you order a company to build you website, there's a chance that it will cost you over 10000$ for copyright infringement and a long legal process. There's a possibility that they will use a copyrighted image without permission when building your site.

I learned today that many photographers simply leave their high res photos unmarked on the website. They don't leave any copyright notices because their work is copyrighted by default.
Then they scan the web for illegal copies of these images.

According to my teacher, his friend who works as a photographer said:
"It's a gold mine. I can earn at most 500PLN from making a photo for an agency. I can live as a king just by suing suckers. I can get 10000PLN from a single photo, many times."
They basically live a robber lifestyle now, completely legally and with help of the state.

Another friend of my teacher had to pay 12000PLN because an unscrupulous web developer used a single copyrighted image without permission.

Don't get robbed:
Don't display illegal images on your website - you can't count on getting a punishment that is proportional to what you did. You're going to get robbed.
Don't allow a website developers to use any materials that you didn't provide them with.
Don't allow your employees to upload what they want on your website - they can for example upload a copyrighted image or a map which will cost you a lot of money.

(sometimes I hate life)

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Post #: 1

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 3:33:07 PM

apathetic lurker

Posts: 1342
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline

I happen to agree with the photographers...

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Post #: 2

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 3:46:11 PM

Perturabo

Posts: 2003
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

I happen to agree with the photographers...

That it's nice to live like a king from robbing "suckers" which is tens of times much more profitable than doing an actual work?
Since it's possible to instantly find out about illegal copyrighted images using tools like Google graphics, penalties around that are 20+ times higher than payment for making such work on commission don't make sense, as it's possible to find almost every illegal use. Law doesn't need such extreme penalties - it needs a certainty of a penalty. Then generally, I don't find it acceptable to deal out such crippling punishments for something that doesn't even qualify as evil. Especially, when people who actually do evil, like beating people up or actually stealing something from someone often are let go with a warning.
I was attacked on the street in broad daylight. I can't sue the attacker to pay 12000PLN to me, I can't even count on him being imprisoned, while someone can for copying and uploading a published photo. Such double standards are obscene. Actually, if they can get so much money, I should be able to get 10s of times as much, as my health and my ability to go out without being attacked is worth much more than a stupid photo.
There must be a hierarchy of good and evil, where the less evil deeds are receiving a lesser punishment than more evil deeds.

It should be something like "copyright infringement < tax evasion < stealing < robbery < beating someone up",not the reverse.

But no, there must be that idea, that a violent criminal or a car thief is a victim of society and must be given a chance and forgiven and can't pay for the evil he did, but obviously a person that makes an abominable crime of copying a photo and using it on his website without permission is not only a master of his fate but also so evil that he can't be given a chance and has to be destroyed with a crippling fine.
That's what happens when fanatics are allowed to propagate hateful lies that copying something is not only like "stealing a car from someone" but also it's like "beating someone up and taking their purse" (authentic words of that teacher). I wonder if they had ever something stolen from them or if they were ever robbed. Maybe then they'd see the difference and realise how insane their claims are. Or rather not. Anyone who chooses a live of someone who lives by frivolously suing people for extreme sums of money and even baits such people is probably a sociopath.

Then, there's a problem that company owners usually don't make the website themselves but hire a company to make it. The idea that someone should be robbed for such a crippling amount of money because the website making company that he hired decided to break law, is obscene.

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 10/13/2011 5:29:49 PM >

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Post #: 3

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 4:31:19 PM

Terminus

Posts: 39923
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: online

Waaah-waaah-waaah...

Maybe you should try not to display pictures you don't have the right to as a matter of course, rather than for fear of getting sued?

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Post #: 4

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 8:17:05 PM

Murat

Posts: 803
Joined: 9/17/2003
From: South Carolina
Status: offline

In the USA we have plenty of fair use options that prevent such lawsuits and we have quite the reputation for litigation here. Maybe people are just not smart enough to do the work arounds.

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Post #: 5

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 9:20:37 PM

Perturabo

Posts: 2003
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

In the USA we have plenty of fair use options that prevent such lawsuits and we have quite the reputation for litigation here. Maybe people are just not smart enough to do the work arounds.

Getting into such a situation requires a certain dose of ignorance.

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Post #: 6

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 10:11:08 PM

freeboy

Posts: 8345
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

it is both sad, the litigeous nature, and true... my wifes fortune 500 company had an employee building one of there branding logos, and they used a copywrited image without permission, can you say; " pink slip"?

< Message edited by freeboy -- 10/14/2011 7:39:11 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 10:12:34 PM

apathetic lurker

Posts: 1342
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

I happen to agree with the photographers...

That it's nice to live like a king from robbing "suckers" which is tens of times much more profitable than doing an actual work?
Since it's possible to instantly find out about illegal copyrighted images using tools like Google graphics, penalties around that are 20+ times higher than payment for making such work on commission don't make sense, as it's possible to find almost every illegal use. Law doesn't need such extreme penalties - it needs a certainty of a penalty. Then generally, I don't find it acceptable to deal out such crippling punishments for something that doesn't even qualify as evil. Especially, when people who actually do evil, like beating people up or actually stealing something from someone often are let go with a warning.
I was attacked on the street in broad daylight. I can't sue the attacker to pay 12000PLN to me, I can't even count on him being imprisoned, while someone can for copying and uploading a published photo. Such double standards are obscene. Actually, if they can get so much money, I should be able to get 10s of times as much, as my health and my ability to go out without being attacked is worth much more than a stupid photo.
There must be a hierarchy of good and evil, where the less evil deeds are receiving a lesser punishment than more evil deeds.

It should be something like "copyright infringement < tax evasion < stealing < robbery < beating someone up",not the reverse.

But no, there must be that idea, that a violent criminal or a car thief is a victim of society and must be given a chance and forgiven and can't pay for the evil he did, but obviously a person that makes an abominable crime of copying a photo and using it on his website without permission is not only a master of his fate but also so evil that he can't be given a chance and has to be destroyed with a crippling fine.
That's what happens when fanatics are allowed to propagate hateful lies that copying something is not only like "stealing a car from someone" but also it's like "beating someone up and taking their purse" (authentic words of that teacher). I wonder if they had ever something stolen from them or if they were ever robbed. Maybe then they'd see the difference and realise how insane their claims are. Or rather not. Anyone who chooses a live of someone who lives by frivolously suing people for extreme sums of money and even baits such people is probably a sociopath.

Then, there's a problem that company owners usually don't make the website themselves but hire a company to make it. The idea that someone should be robbed for such a crippling amount of money because the website making company that he hired decided to break law, is obscene.

It is "ACTUAL WORK".. Do you think the photographs magically appear when the fairy godmother sprinkles her magic dust on a camera? Try it sometimes. And I dont mean taking your point and shoot on the family outing.. I mean an honest to goodness photo shoot that might last 15-20 hours at a time.

I spent quite a few years being a part time semi-pro/independant photographer doing mostly sports shoots. Occasionally I did other shoots. Let me tell you. It is not easy work. Getting the "perfect" shot out of hundreds of photos .Try taking a picture after a 300 pound football player barrels into you full speed. The extremely long hours breathing in chemicals, the long hours in a darkroom, etc etc....This is all in the pre-photoshop/digital camera age.Its a lot easier now.

If its so damn easy to find out copyrights then the whole issue of lawsuits shouldnt exist for copyrighted work. It's plain laziness. If you get busted its your own fault...Not the photographers.

I would sue too if someone was to lazy to check copyright and used my work without asking me first.

And i'm not a sociopath.....

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Post #: 8

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 10:17:04 PM

apathetic lurker

Posts: 1342
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Murat

In the USA we have plenty of fair use options that prevent such lawsuits and we have quite the reputation for litigation here. Maybe people are just not smart enough to do the work arounds.

Poland has different laws which can seem byzantine to even Polish citizens. Try getting registered after living in the states for 30 years...I'm still not sure what I did but it took me two trips to Poland this summer to "probably" be registered......lol

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Post #: 9

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 10:30:30 PM

Perturabo

Posts: 2003
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

I happen to agree with the photographers...

That it's nice to live like a king from robbing "suckers" which is tens of times much more profitable than doing an actual work?
Since it's possible to instantly find out about illegal copyrighted images using tools like Google graphics, penalties around that are 20+ times higher than payment for making such work on commission don't make sense, as it's possible to find almost every illegal use. Law doesn't need such extreme penalties - it needs a certainty of a penalty. Then generally, I don't find it acceptable to deal out such crippling punishments for something that doesn't even qualify as evil. Especially, when people who actually do evil, like beating people up or actually stealing something from someone often are let go with a warning.
I was attacked on the street in broad daylight. I can't sue the attacker to pay 12000PLN to me, I can't even count on him being imprisoned, while someone can for copying and uploading a published photo. Such double standards are obscene. Actually, if they can get so much money, I should be able to get 10s of times as much, as my health and my ability to go out without being attacked is worth much more than a stupid photo.
There must be a hierarchy of good and evil, where the less evil deeds are receiving a lesser punishment than more evil deeds.

It should be something like "copyright infringement < tax evasion < stealing < robbery < beating someone up",not the reverse.

But no, there must be that idea, that a violent criminal or a car thief is a victim of society and must be given a chance and forgiven and can't pay for the evil he did, but obviously a person that makes an abominable crime of copying a photo and using it on his website without permission is not only a master of his fate but also so evil that he can't be given a chance and has to be destroyed with a crippling fine.
That's what happens when fanatics are allowed to propagate hateful lies that copying something is not only like "stealing a car from someone" but also it's like "beating someone up and taking their purse" (authentic words of that teacher). I wonder if they had ever something stolen from them or if they were ever robbed. Maybe then they'd see the difference and realise how insane their claims are. Or rather not. Anyone who chooses a live of someone who lives by frivolously suing people for extreme sums of money and even baits such people is probably a sociopath.

Then, there's a problem that company owners usually don't make the website themselves but hire a company to make it. The idea that someone should be robbed for such a crippling amount of money because the website making company that he hired decided to break law, is obscene.

It is "ACTUAL WORK".. Do you think the photographs magically appear when the fairy godmother sprinkles her magic dust on a camera? Try it sometimes. And I dont mean taking your point and shoot on the family outing.. I mean an honest to goodness photo shoot that might last 15-20 hours at a time.

Actual work = making a photo and selling it to agency. Not actual work = trolling for lawsuits to get tens of times more money than for the actual work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

If its so damn easy to find out copyrights then the whole issue of lawsuits shouldnt exist for copyrighted work. It's plain laziness. If you get busted its your own fault...Not the photographers.

I would sue too if someone was to lazy to check copyright and used my work without asking me first.

And i'm not a sociopath.....

Lack of empathy and willingness to rob people of huge amounts of money because of an abstract concept say something else.
Lack of sense of proportion too.

The general principle of the justice system is mercifulness and care to not damage the perpetrator, even when violence is involved. It is not decent to demand that this principle should be suddenly removed for copyright infringement and especially banal laziness and stupidity of using a copy of someone's photo on a website. You have no moral right to demand that someone should be punished more harshly for it than for actual violence and stealing.
That's why I find the actions of your kind disgusting.

Or do you think that the guy that attacked me on the street should pay me 120000PLN for breaching my walking without getting beaten up rights whenever he has the money or not?
Or maybe my evil ex father should have been paying 1200PLN for me each month instead of 400PLN despite me not being able to prove that he actually has such amount of money? And while at it, why can't I get 1200000PLN from him from breaching my living in a full family right which is much more serious that your photo?

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 10/13/2011 11:35:16 PM >

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RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 10:48:37 PM

L�tzow

Posts: 1414
Joined: 7/22/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

If you order a company to build you website, there's a chance that it will cost you over 10000$ for copyright infringement and a long legal process. There's a possibility that they will use a copyrighted image without permission when building your site.

Not really. Every professional company will arrange requirement specifications and mandatory specifications if you task them with a web project. This includes liabilites and charges of copyrigths.

However, don't expect every web developer to acquaint with any possible infringements in every country. I had to deal with these legal issues at college as well, but after all it's lawyer stuff.

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Post #: 11

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/13/2011 11:57:05 PM

apathetic lurker

Posts: 1342
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From: Buffalo,ny
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Perturabo...you seem pissed that you can't take advantage of the convoluted laws of Poland.

And why should we roll over because you find our actions objectionable/disgusting? If you don't like the laws go become a politician."My Kind" works hard for what we make. Only rarely do photographers become huge. Most of the time we are faceless drones making wedding videos, wedding snapshots, some damn kids parties etc etc...Why the hell should we let some lazy ass use our work to enrich himself?Let him/her take their own damn photos. And anyways, its only a minute percentage who do it(trolling for lawsuits). But its them that magnify the situation. But you dont help yourself when you dump "my kind" into one big cauldron and blame all of us for the actions of a few.......

One of the reasons I got rid of my website many years ago was that a individual "borrowed" my work and foisted it off as their own to a newspaper..Imagine my surprise when I saw "MY" photo in a newspaper with someone else's name. Would that make you happy if what you worked on was utilized for someone else's benefit? Yes, I sued and yes I got money and yes I got an apology from the newspaper too. If that makes me an ass in your eyes so be it.

< Message edited by apathetic lurker -- 10/14/2011 12:21:25 AM >

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RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/14/2011 12:31:48 AM

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From: Monroe, LA, USA
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He seems to be making a distinction between deliberate theft of a copyrighted item and mistaken or innocent use of such an item. I can see that distinction, too.

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Post #: 13

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/14/2011 4:00:57 AM

apathetic lurker

Posts: 1342
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Buffalo,ny
Status: offline

If you use a photo for your profile picture on facebook that could be seen as fair use. Using the same photo for a company website, however mistaken can not be seen as fair use unless that photo is in the public domain. That photo constitutes part of the whole web page which you are using to expand a business. Therefore the copyright holder has a right to some monetary claim. I just cant see how anyone running a business can claim mistaken or innocent use. And since pretty much everyone knows photos are copyrighted there can't be the excuse of "I didn't know", especially since all businesses pretty much utilize attorneys who will inform you otherwise.At that point it goes into the realm of theft or laziness(hoping you don't get caught).It doesn't take a lot of work to contact the copyright holder.If they say no, so be it...move on ...If they say yes and the pertinent paperwork is done then you get a picture. Simple,no?

If you don't want to pay "My Kind" all that exorbitant blood money there is a simple solution. Don't steal

< Message edited by apathetic lurker -- 10/14/2011 4:03:29 AM >

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RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/14/2011 6:07:35 AM

Orm

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From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

If you use a photo for your profile picture on facebook that could be seen as fair use. Using the same photo for a company website, however mistaken can not be seen as fair use unless that photo is in the public domain.

I thought this was the point. That some disguise their photo as it would be public domain and then sue if it is used.

Please correct me if I got it wrong.

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RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/14/2011 11:07:46 AM

Karri

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I'm pretty sure in most cases you'd escpae lawsui by smiply stopping to use the image...?

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Post #: 16

RE: Beware of copyright law robbery. - 10/14/2011 1:30:37 PM

Perturabo

Posts: 2003
Joined: 11/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Perturabo...you seem pissed that you can't take advantage of the convoluted laws of Poland.

No, I'm pissed that the government of Poland Hates Moral Clarity and can't properly scale crimes. I don't want to take advantage of laws. I don't want anyone to take advantage of laws. I want justice for all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

And why should we roll over because you find our actions objectionable/disgusting? If you don't like the laws go become a politician.

I'm not worthy to be a politician.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

"My Kind" works hard for what we make. Only rarely do photographers become huge. Most of the time we are faceless drones making wedding videos, wedding snapshots, some damn kids parties etc etc...Why the hell should we let some lazy ass use our work to enrich himself?Let him/her take their own damn photos.

So, you assume that they aren't hard working persons like you and they will become rich thanks to using your photos? Don't you think it's a bit far fetched?

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

And anyways, its only a minute percentage who do it(trolling for lawsuits). But its them that magnify the situation. But you dont help yourself when you dump "my kind" into one big cauldron and blame all of us for the actions of a few.......

Then don't express your sympathy for these actions of the few. Also, I didn't mean "your kind" as photographers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

One of the reasons I got rid of my website many years ago was that a individual "borrowed" my work and foisted it off as their own to a newspaper..Imagine my surprise when I saw "MY" photo in a newspaper with someone else's name. Would that make you happy if what you worked on was utilized for someone else's benefit?

No. I would be slightly unhappy. I wouldn't be extremely butthurt about it either, though as I'm interested in moral clarity, not in getting myself pumped up with empty slogans. What did such person do to me, exactly?
Oh wait, nothing.
(in comparison, what did a car thief do to me? He took my car from me and now I don't have a car.)
So, basically, if someone copied my graphic (it would be more applicable to me as I never was into photography) , it would be logical to stop them from using it/get paid for it, get paid for the effort of getting paid for it and be apologized and have the person that conned them into believing that it's their photo get disciplinary fired/blacklisted. I don't feel need to specifically hurt people who didn't do anything to me, though.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Yes, I sued and yes I got money and yes I got an apology from the newspaper too. If that makes me an ass in your eyes so be it.

I never said that people shouldn't sue over copyright and shouldn't be compensated and shouldn't receive an apology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

If you use a photo for your profile picture on facebook that could be seen as fair use. Using the same photo for a company website, however mistaken can not be seen as fair use unless that photo is in the public domain. That photo constitutes part of the whole web page which you are using to expand a business. Therefore the copyright holder has a right to some monetary claim.

I never denied it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

I just cant see how anyone running a business can claim mistaken or innocent use.

Companies usually don't make their websites. They hire other people for making websites. An assumption that every company owner has skills to make a commercial-grade .www site is pretty retarded. If the people who make the website copy the photos/graphical elements without permissions, they are the ones who infringe copyright. And more, they con the company into paying them for work they didn't do. That's why I'm warning about a possibility of being conned and then being robbed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

it goes into the realm of theft

It doesn't as nothing is removed from inventory. It goes into the realm of copyright infringement.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

If you don't want to pay "My Kind" all that exorbitant blood money there is a simple solution.

I don't want anyone to get exorbitant blood money for stuff like this. Penalties must be properly scaled. Justice for all and all that stuff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Don't steal

Can't you talk without resorting to retarded strawmen like this? Are you afraid that saying that someone copied your photo without permission and used it commercially, nobody will care, or something like that?

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 10/14/2011 1:55:56 PM >

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Post #: 17

benpark

Posts: 3736
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From: New Haven, CT
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

I learned today that many photographers simply leave their high res photos unmarked on the website. They don't leave any copyright notices because their work is copyrighted by default.
Then they scan the web for illegal copies of these images.

According to my teacher, his friend who works as a photographer said:
"It's a gold mine. I can earn at most 500PLN from making a photo for an agency. I can live as a king just by suing suckers. I can get 10000PLN from a single photo, many times."
They basically live a robber lifestyle now, completely legally and with help of the state.

Someone telling you something like this third hand is hardly an epidemic. If this information is being given out as part of your education, you need specific cases (legal ones), rather than apocryphal stories. I have never heard of anything like this (photographers trolling for settlement money), and I know more about these issues than most.

Copyright protects the property of people that have created something. A lot (lot) of time and money goes into being a photographer. There is absolutely no excuse for using someones work without their knowledge and recompense. If someone were indeed to use an image without knowing where came from (incurious and problematic in itself), I am certain that most of these cases would never go to court- but usage should still cease. That's up to the person that created the image, but they have a very real legal groundwork for a suit. "Don't steal" is very good advice.

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Post #: 18

ilovestrategy

Posts: 3628
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benpark I love your Avatar.

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Post #: 19

benpark

Posts: 3736
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Righto. Yours as well. Good thing thumbnails of well known images are covered under "fair use" in the USA. Not entire, high res ones like we are discussing. No doubt, it's an area fraught with complexities.

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Post #: 20

Perturabo

Posts: 2003
Joined: 11/17/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Someone telling you something like this third hand is hardly an epidemic. If this information is being given out as part of your education, you need specific cases (legal ones), rather than apocryphal stories. I have never heard of anything like this (photographers trolling for settlement money), and I know more about these issues than most.

So, I would have to ask him to show case documents or something like that?
To be honest, that computer graphics lesson really made me lose any desire to do any work, learning, etc.
Especially the part about the guy who commissioned a website and then had to pay so much money just for the dishonesty of the web developer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

Copyright protects the property of people that have created something. A lot (lot) of time and money goes into being a photographer. There is absolutely no excuse for using someones work without their knowledge and recompense.

It's nice how you replace "image" with "work" to create an additional emotional effect. I live from making building/flat plans in QCAD. A building plan takes about a week of work to make, including work in terrain and by computer. In the end, it's just an image, as I work on commission, so I get get paid for my work. To be honest, I have no idea what happens with these plans later and whenever someone copies them or not and what they use it for or what's their copyright status.
I don't find it particularly relevant, though as the only person who has uses my work is the commissioner who pays for my work. If anyone copies the image and uses it, uses a copy of the image, not my work as I haven't done any work for them.

Lack of excuse doesn't necessitate/justify an extreme approach.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benpark

If someone were indeed to use an image without knowing where came from (incurious and problematic in itself), I am certain that most of these cases would never go to court- but usage should still cease. That's up to the person that created the image, but they have a very real legal groundwork for a suit. "Don't steal" is very good advice.

I agree. The problem is that calling copyright infringement "stealing" instead of copyright infringement serves to create extreme emotions and extreme stances. Nothing good comes out of it.
Especially when people go full Shepard and start talking about how it's exactly as stealing someone's car or even like beating someone up and taking his valet.

(One may say that the title of the thread is an example of such a strawman argument. I'd say that any involuntary giving of money under threat of force is a robbery, though. It just sometime gets a nicer name for emotional reasons - people would probably feel weird if they would get robbed by the Office of Robbery instead of paying taxes).

< Message edited by Perturabo -- 10/14/2011 3:00:32 PM >

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(in reply to benpark)

Post #: 21