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Los Angeles Oil - 10/10/2011 9:14:00 PM   
Schanilec

 

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25000 worth of oil in LA. I am not able to load onto tankers.
Is theree a way to load? Or is it off limits?

Thanks all.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/10/2011 9:26:26 PM   
wdolson

 

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The game engine will not allow you to load oil that is needed for refineries next turn.  North America's refining capacity is equal to it's oil output, so there is none to spare.  You can't load any oil in North America.

Bill


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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/10/2011 11:43:43 PM   
SgtSwanson


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Yes you can as it was pointed out to me. Just turn OFF production at the refinery. Load ships, turn back on day after they leave.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/11/2011 1:36:27 AM   
khyberbill


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quote:

Just turn OFF production at the refinery. Load ships, turn back on day after they leave.

Works like a charm. One doesnt need to move oil anywhere though. You need fuel in Oz for producing supply. However, I do have one foe that is bent on taking Oz from me and so I have shipped some oil there just in case he can isolate the place. However, your refinery capacity in Oz is very limited so you wont use much. Ship as much fuel as you can because Oz will consume about 50k a month producing supply if given the chance.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/11/2011 5:59:14 AM   
crsutton


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My game is into early 44 and I never had to send a lick of oil to OZ. Oz uses its own oil and refinery to make supply and perhaps will make a little less if not getting enough oil but you only need to send fuel and supply from the East Coast. I have never touched Australian Industry and have never been out of supply there. Ship fuel and never worry about oil anywhere. Why worry about sending oil to Oz in order to make supply when you can just send more supply from the States and use your tankers to take more of the all too critical fuel.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/11/2011 4:09:15 PM   
Schanilec

 

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I sort of thought the oil in LA was not to be spared for shipping. I thought if there was any to be spared, why not ship it to OZ. I had a couple of times seen industry failure in Melbourne. That seems to have been squared away though. I have a tanker at Abadan loading oil, so nothing really pressing. I was wondering about that oil stock in LA. Turning off production is a good idea. But I won't be doing that. Gotta keep the home front rolling.

Thanks for the assistance boys.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 2:50:24 AM   
crsutton


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As the Allied player you should never have to worry about production anywhere. It pretty much takes care of itself in a normal game.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 7:19:40 AM   
Gunner98


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Keeping Oz filled with fuel both for industry and for tactical operations is an issue for me. The VH AI seems to have Jap torpedoes which are magnetically attracted to tankers! I've lost about 25 of them in the IO alone in 42 . I have Ceylon swamped with ASW patrols and Naval search. Not sure what else to do.

Any ideas?

B

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 4:53:27 PM   
witpqs


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First off, although in technical terms moving oil is not necessary for the Allies just as crsutton mentioned, I like to try keeping the various industries up and running as I find it in the spirit of the campaign scenario. It also gives the Japanese player more things to shoot at, in line with real life.

Gunner98, try sending your tankers via Mombasa or Cape Town.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 5:13:23 PM   
Nikademus


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Very true......a more useful game exploit is to drain the SRA primary ports like an Exxon Tanker at a Monster Truck Rally....then dump all those fuel points in Oz allowing extended operations there months ahead of schedule. Never saw the point of shipping Oil to Oz. It's economy pretty much runs itself. (I wish the same could be said of the Japanese economy!)

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Post #: 10
RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 5:21:47 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Very true......a more useful game exploit is to drain the SRA primary ports like an Exxon Tanker at a Monster Truck Rally....then dump all those fuel points in Oz allowing extended operations there months ahead of schedule. Never saw the point of shipping Oil to Oz. It's economy pretty much runs itself. (I wish the same could be said of the Japanese economy!)



Routing tankers from Abadan or India through the off-map ports of Mombasa and Cape Town is not an exploit. The map edge creates an artificial channel for convoys that remain on-map. If a player wants to route off-map to avoid that choke point, he pays the penalty of greatly increased transit time.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 5:37:07 PM   
Nikademus


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not so sure i'd agree. I found that the AE logistics works very well when an Allied player takes the time to schlep the fuel (and also build up SoPac base ports) from the US to Oz along the fabled Oz-USA supply tether that King was so worried about. Without exploiting the SRA specifically or using the new Western off map portals, it took roughly the same amount of time to build up a decent reserve as was the case in real life.

But the point i was making referred specifically to the SRA which starts off with something on the order of 1,000,000 usuable fuel points sitting in the various major points. A typical Player two tactic from Turn 1 on is to start loading that fuel and shipping it away. Done it myself. I turned Perth and Hobart into huge fuel caches before Player one was even halfway to Java. Player one can counter it a little by rushing KB back to the SRA and having them "patrol" south of Java but it's a coin toss if you nab that really juicy mega-convoy but has the disadvantage of nailing down your primary asset and leaving other areas on the map vulnerable to counter-attack. In my last game i refrained from doing the Logistical Sir Robin and felt it kept the operational pace as Player two much more realisitic. Just my two cents. On the subject of Oil......never saw an signifigant advantage to sending it to Oz or anywhere as Player two for that matter.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 5:48:36 PM   
Gunner98


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Unfortunately, now that I have taken so many tanker losses, that is a steep penalty, perhaps I'll go half way and route them west of Diego Garcia and then straight down until I can angle them into Perth. Most of the hits have been within about 8-10 hexes of Colombo.

I drained as much fuel and oil as I could out of the DEI early on and that has delayed the problem (or at least my realization of the problem) for about 9 months.

I find most of the fuel out of LA gets gobbled up by the USN and I can only keep a trickle going into Sydney from LA after keeping about 500K in Perl (I have drained PH in an earlier game and it took weeks to get it back up), it seems I can burn up 80-90K at Perl in a couple of turns when the fleet returns from a major operation. I try and keep both Canton and Suva at ~ 100K and Noumea is thirsty most of the time. I know I need to work on that balance but I still don't think there is scope for large fuel runs from LA to Sydney. Oil is out of the question as was pointed out earlier.

Edit: at least in 42, perhaps more able to build up later but the fleet just keeps getting bigger so...

< Message edited by Gunner98 -- 10/12/2011 5:52:53 PM >

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 6:01:11 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98

Unfortunately, now that I have taken so many tanker losses, that is a steep penalty, perhaps I'll go half way and route them west of Diego Garcia and then straight down until I can angle them into Perth. Most of the hits have been within about 8-10 hexes of Colombo.

I drained as much fuel and oil as I could out of the DEI early on and that has delayed the problem (or at least my realization of the problem) for about 9 months.

I find most of the fuel out of LA gets gobbled up by the USN and I can only keep a trickle going into Sydney from LA after keeping about 500K in Perl (I have drained PH in an earlier game and it took weeks to get it back up), it seems I can burn up 80-90K at Perl in a couple of turns when the fleet returns from a major operation. I try and keep both Canton and Suva at ~ 100K and Noumea is thirsty most of the time. I know I need to work on that balance but I still don't think there is scope for large fuel runs from LA to Sydney. Oil is out of the question as was pointed out earlier.

Edit: at least in 42, perhaps more able to build up later but the fleet just keeps getting bigger so...


In North America, the fuel should build up to where it's available to fill up convoys at will. I don't recall exactly how long that will take, but for the first few weeks you will have limited shipping there which in turn reduces the pressure on the fuel supply. For whatever reason, the game seems to love stacking fuel in Los Angeles. Later on there will be plenty for all ports, but at first you might have best luck loading fuel convoys at LA.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 6:15:40 PM   
witpqs


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

not so sure i'd agree. I found that the AE logistics works very well when an Allied player takes the time to schlep the fuel (and also build up SoPac base ports) from the US to Oz along the fabled Oz-USA supply tether that King was so worried about. Without exploiting the SRA specifically or using the new Western off map portals, it took roughly the same amount of time to build up a decent reserve as was the case in real life.

But the point i was making referred specifically to the SRA which starts off with something on the order of 1,000,000 usuable fuel points sitting in the various major points. A typical Player two tactic from Turn 1 on is to start loading that fuel and shipping it away. Done it myself. I turned Perth and Hobart into huge fuel caches before Player one was even halfway to Java. Player one can counter it a little by rushing KB back to the SRA and having them "patrol" south of Java but it's a coin toss if you nab that really juicy mega-convoy but has the disadvantage of nailing down your primary asset and leaving other areas on the map vulnerable to counter-attack. In my last game i refrained from doing the Logistical Sir Robin and felt it kept the operational pace as Player two much more realisitic. Just my two cents. On the subject of Oil......never saw an signifigant advantage to sending it to Oz or anywhere as Player two for that matter.


I think shipping oil to Oz is a 'realism flavor' thing. Technically it doesn't matter, but as a means of keeping the civilian economy running I feel I should do so as the Allied player. After DEI falls only Abadan has excess oil, so Treespider's change (in his mod) to put oil supply at the Panama Canal is an excellent little change that IMO other mods should adopt.

On the DEI oil - where was the oil above and beyond that which can feed the local refineries going? I'm sure it wasn't being stockpiled for the Japanese to capture, so shipping it out seems more than just fair, it seems the only reasonable course.

As for DEI fuel, there is a little of the point about oil (more was being produced than could possibly be used locally, so that must be intended for export). But mostly I think it's a hindsight issue rather than an exploit. Both players have lots of 'hindsight items' to their benefit. I'm cool with not loading up everything at first - waiting until later to "try" and get a lot more out, but that depends on what your opponent is doing. It seems a lot of IJ players go for deep choke points that are also purely hindsight-enabled opportunities.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/12/2011 7:55:26 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

On the DEI oil - where was the oil above and beyond that which can feed the local refineries going? I'm sure it wasn't being stockpiled for the Japanese to capture, so shipping it out seems more than just fair, it seems the only reasonable course.


It was being guarded as a valued asset....up till the time some decided in places to try to blow em up.

quote:


As for DEI fuel, there is a little of the point about oil (more was being produced than could possibly be used locally, so that must be intended for export). But mostly I think it's a hindsight issue rather than an exploit. Both players have lots of 'hindsight items' to their benefit. I'm cool with not loading up everything at first - waiting until later to "try" and get a lot more out, but that depends on what your opponent is doing. It seems a lot of IJ players go for deep choke points that are also purely hindsight-enabled opportunities.


Yes....i know 'both' sides benefit from hindsight..sigh. ...however having played both sides in PBEM, i'd say Player two benefits more in the same fashion that the Russian side benefits more being on the defensive in WitE which is causing all sorts of angst and woe over on that forum. The problem with "this" particular hindsight issue is that Player two from Dec 8, knowing the SRA cannot be held immediately starts the logistical bugout of fuel to both deny it to Player one but more importantly to start building up Oz from Dec8 as a platform and thats not realistic. More pointedly it defeats the logistical improvements put into AE that was designed to slow Operational Pace for both sides. Bereft of this tactic, whether one considers it valid or not, the AE improved logistics model in the case of Oz-USA pipeline works very well. I guess we'll agree to disagree here. I've never "required" it as a House Rule and won't. However when I play Player 2's side....i refrain from the tactic voluntarily just as I don't Sir Robin my military forces because I personally don't feel its Kosher.

Ultimately from my playing experiences, when you combine the above with other "hindsight" factors, thats why you get the Player 1 "going for the chokehold" counter-tactic because they know very well what Player two is doing. The combined result is odd play on both sides. Player one's best strategy is to go for the deep choke points and work their way back while Player two bugs out the SRA and immediately starts building up historically contested bases well before they are even threatened whilst mass fuel convoys pump all the refined ship fuel lying around the forward ports. How to counter? You have to start somewhere. As Player one I don't immediately go for the choke points way beyond safe reasonable coverage of my forces. As Player two I treat the SRA as an area i will defend bitterly as the real participants felt and i don't do the logistical bugout re: fuel. In my mod i actually plan on majorly reducing the fuel stockpile anyway though with the refinaries in place the Oil centers will continue to merrily pump out tons of fuel points each turn.

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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/13/2011 1:00:02 AM   
crsutton


Posts: 7240
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From: Maryland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

not so sure i'd agree. I found that the AE logistics works very well when an Allied player takes the time to schlep the fuel (and also build up SoPac base ports) from the US to Oz along the fabled Oz-USA supply tether that King was so worried about. Without exploiting the SRA specifically or using the new Western off map portals, it took roughly the same amount of time to build up a decent reserve as was the case in real life.

But the point i was making referred specifically to the SRA which starts off with something on the order of 1,000,000 usuable fuel points sitting in the various major points. A typical Player two tactic from Turn 1 on is to start loading that fuel and shipping it away. Done it myself. I turned Perth and Hobart into huge fuel caches before Player one was even halfway to Java. Player one can counter it a little by rushing KB back to the SRA and having them "patrol" south of Java but it's a coin toss if you nab that really juicy mega-convoy but has the disadvantage of nailing down your primary asset and leaving other areas on the map vulnerable to counter-attack. In my last game i refrained from doing the Logistical Sir Robin and felt it kept the operational pace as Player two much more realisitic. Just my two cents. On the subject of Oil......never saw an signifigant advantage to sending it to Oz or anywhere as Player two for that matter.


Yeah, I have to admit I have done this but a good Japanese player is going to close down North Oz by May of 42 anyways which can negate the benefit of moving the fuel. You can take the longer trip and dump it in Perth or Townsville but time and distance limits that.

One of the fine points of the early campaign as the Allies is the difficulty I had keeping enough fuel in the South Pacific to conduct any operations. They really did a good job on this design point. The temptation was to send old BBs to Oz or Noumea but they just drank up all my gas...

< Message edited by crsutton -- 10/13/2011 1:02:57 AM >


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RE: Los Angeles Oil - 10/13/2011 1:44:22 AM   
zzodr


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I now CS Oil to Aus after capturing Babo and Boela, don't have to worry so much about shipping fuel for HI industry in SE corner
of Aus after that.


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