Matrix pricing

[battles_atlas]

Having seen the review of Panzer Corps on the PC Gamer site I couldn't wait to buy a copy - it looked like the kind of accessible strategy I love. That was until I googled it and found it was a Matrix game, and thus exists in a strange 5th dimension where indie titles are permanently more expensive than AAA releases are in the first week of release.

I think the Matrix pricing policy is a shame. Ok, for the real hardcore mil strat games the market is pretty always going to be small so high prices make sense. However a game like Panzer Corps clearly has wide appeal, but the pricing strategy guarantees it will remain niche. Paradox manage to make good money off games like HOI with a mainstream pricing approach. Matrix's strategy is I presume profitable, but it's at the expense of the (small number of) purchasers. As long as it remains niche it looks less tempting for other devs to try their hand at it, and encourages the big publishers' argument that only dumb games sell big.

No doubt the regulars here (which lets face it will be all of you as the casuals wont stick around having seen the prices) will totally disagree with this, so I'll add one thing that perhaps is less contentious: not including VAT on your quoted prices is not something that any reputable retailer should do, particularly when the product is a game and hence highly unlikely to qualify for VAT exemption for anyone. I was actually gonna bite my lip and order Panzer Corps at £27.99, but when I clicked through I found the actual cost, at which point I thought enough was enough. If you're going to charge high prices for your games at least be honest about it.

[Murat]

No VAT in the USA. HOI is niche, as is EU and most other war games. The difference is the company behind them. The big corporations have a set pricing structure that takes into account initial high demand and they also do some degree of marketing to support the initial high price, after which time the price point drops and eventually the game that was U$60 in Best Buy (standard retailer) on release is 3 years later selling for U$6 at a Big Lots (discount store). This is because they really are only planning on getting about U$20 for a game on average and even then they make a profit due to extremely high volume across the many genres of games they produce. Here we have developers that can only look at their time and say 'I have invested X hours of my time and would like to get U$1 (which is like .25 Euro) per hour back so if I sell Y units (Y is significantly lower than for an EA game for example) at U$60 (which is what people will pay for those games on release date) then I can give Matrix their cut for printing and packaging and using their website and their dowload service and their various subcontractors for same, and make my U$1 per hour!'

So here are the many benefits U$60 will get you here, including but not limited to: a buggy game that is not ready for release to the general market but due to forum pressure after seeing cool graphics and playtesters who rave about how awesome the game is it gets released anyway; the ability to interact with other people in your niche to the extent that all of you share your OC disorder about history together; access to indy games that normally would never get made without the efforts of the devs here; and unparallelled game support since how many people can say 'hey, I saw this glaring flaw in my game and I chatted with the developer and he fixed it (go ahead, try and tell the people who made Assassin's Creed that their game is ahistorical and see where you get).

Panzer corps is only U$50 by the way + tax + shipping and if you are not used to tax and shipping then congratulations on your first attempt to purchase something online.

If you do not want to pay that much for those and other associated benefits, keep your money.
If you do not like the VAT or any other tax, get rid our your politicians or become one yourself and change the tax structure.
If you don't like shipping, I am sure Matrix will be happy to let you come pick up your copy from their warehouse.

But don't get mad when the price is clearly posted and claim Matrix is being dishonest in their pricing.

[bairdlander2]

I think Panzer General is free for download.Its the same thing more or less.

[Perturabo]

Try the NWS store. They usually have lower prices on Matrix Games titles. I got BftB physical edition with shipping there for lesser price than the download edition at Matrix site. Yeah, the VAT thing is annoying. Happened to me once when I wanted to buy Cross of Iron.

G.O.G has Panzer General 2 and Panzer General 3D for 9.99$ each.

[terje439]

Here in Norway, initial prices for Matrixgames are about 20$ below other games...

Terje

[Lützow]

If you do not like the VAT or any other tax, get rid our your politicians or become one yourself and change the tax structure.

Or simply purchase digital products by using an US ip. [:'(]

[Wargamer74]

I have to agree to a certain extent. Panzer Corps in my opinion is not that expensive since it is a new title and looks like alot of fun (I'll be buying it soon) but on the other hand some of the games here are way over overpriced. For example one of my favorites is Gary Grigsby's World At War A World Divided and bought the game back in 2006 when it first came out and got a discount because I own the original but unfortunately the forums are now completely dead which really sucks, so one day I looked to see how much Matrix was charging for the game and there still charging $50 bucks five years later! To make it even worse tcp/ip play doesn't even work properly and 2by3 games refuses to fix it or ever put any updates out for the AI or anything else in the game. Its know wonder the forums are so dead. I do love the game but that is a little pathetic.

Hopefully none of you will take to much offense to that, just my opinion.

[redcoat]

ORIGINAL: Lützow

If you do not like the VAT or any other tax, get rid our your politicians or become one yourself and change the tax structure.

Or simply purchase digital products by using an US ip. [:'(]

The cost of buying Panzer Corps by download in the UK:

£27.99 + £5.60 VAT = £33.59

The cost of buying Panzer Corps with a U.S. ip:

Around only £25.51 – depending upon the exchange rate used

[Hertston]

ORIGINAL: battles_atlas

No doubt the regulars here (which lets face it will be all of you as the casuals wont stick around having seen the prices) will totally disagree with this, so I'll add one thing that perhaps is less contentious: not including VAT on your quoted prices is not something that any reputable retailer should do, particularly when the product is a game and hence highly unlikely to qualify for VAT exemption for anyone. I was actually gonna bite my lip and order Panzer Corps at £27.99, but when I clicked through I found the actual cost, at which point I thought enough was enough. If you're going to charge high prices for your games at least be honest about it.

There's nothing 'dishonest' about the VAT; Matrix are an American company contracting out their internet sales and hence have no dealings with VAT themselves at all. Why Digital River and now Plimus have never been able to show gross prices is a different question, but it is nevertheless the norm for US companies without the sort of international set-up Steam has, for example. If you buy direct from indie developers using Paypal the first you will know about the VAT is just before you hit the final Paypal authorization (the irony being that it's exceedingly unlikely they have the turnover level that requires they account for it, anyway).

As to pricing levels, I agree with you, IMHO they are too high for some titles like Panzer Corps and Battlefield Academy. As with yours, though, my opinion means diddly; Matrix have far more information for an informed pricing decision than us. If I think a game is too expensive I don't buy it.

By 'AAA' titles, I assume you mean such stellar efforts as Brink, RAGE and Duke Nukem Forever. Hmm...

[sabre1]

I'm on the side of buy or don't buy. A company has the right (at least for the moment) to charge whatever they want, and we can decide to buy or not to buy.

I never bought War in the East or Battles for the Bulge due to prices. My choice. They are great games without a doubt, but I draw the line on some things that are nonessentials.

OT: I also will not buy games with DRM schemes. Matrix's scheme is as much as I will stand for, but just barely.

I get to read more that way.

[Perturabo]

Same here. Except that the only game that I bought (besides the ones I bought from a bargain bin a years ago) was BftB as it was the only that I considered worth that price (taking in account how much I have to work for it here).
So, naturally, everything that isn't exceptional and I won't play for years or even decades is a no-buy for me. So, it's only great games like BftB and only from the NWS store, but no casual buys.
Generally, more than 30$ is a no-buy to me unless it's something like BftB or comes with a big printed manual and a box, so the vast majority of Matrix Games games are no-buy for me.

[battles_atlas]

Appreciate the general lack of flaming in the replies, always nice to find an outpost of decency in the interwilds. Just to clear up a couple of things, I absolutely am not holding up the standard of AAA games as something to aspire to, if I was I wouldn't be here. I do think though that in the age of Steam, Matrix's pricing ensures that these games remain niche, at the expense of the paying customer. They might not make any more profit from selling twice as many units at half the price, but it would cost each fan less and create a bigger community. And who knows, maybe they'd sell four times as many units at half the price?

Murat - I don't get your point about Paradox. Yes they're niche, that was why I mentioned them, but they manage to be profitable without keeping all their games permanently priced at £30/$50. And they're not a 'big corporation' which you seem to be suggesting. Also whilst their games are sometimes released in a poor state their patch support is hard to criticise.

I have sympathy for your argument about the value of a company committed to its community etc, but that makes it all the more unacceptable to me that they hide the VAT. I totally disagree with those of you defending the VAT thing. When I click on the Panzer Corps link I'm quoted "£27.99 GBP". So they know where I'm coming from. When I click through to buy only then do I get the VAT, but its still on the Matrix site at this point. There is no legit reason why the first page doesn't include VAT for those arriving from a UK ip. If Matrix want to defend their business model as a necessity of offering high quality products and services, then dodgy pricing information seems a little contradictory.

[Phatguy]

Actually, Paradox are a pretty decent sized corporation these days.....They may put out a lot of niche pproducts but they themselves are not niche.

[jomni]

I still like the old store better than Plimus.

[Scott_WAR]

ORIGINAL: apathetic lurker

Actually, Paradox are a pretty decent sized corporation these days.....They may put out a lot of niche pproducts but they themselves are not niche.

And that proves the point. Paradox makes a lot of niche products,...yet one of the reasons they are a mainstream developer is because they make a lot of profit from lowering the prices of their games after a while. . Thus,....they actually get a lot of sales they would not otherwise get, which means more profit. Do you know how many more Matrix titles I would have right now if the price wasnt the same several years after release as they were at release? As it stands I just will not buy them. YES,....I know there are sales,....but it always seems there isnt a sale on what I want when I can actually spare the money to buy a game.

Matrix,...with their pricing scheme,.... and refusal to drop prices after a certain amount of time,....essentially ensures that they will not sell nearly as many units as they could,...and thus will remain a niche publisher,....and then they turn around and use 'low number of sales' as an excuse as to why they dont lower prices. A self fulfilling prophecy.

EDIT- but an earlier poster pointed out the quality issue which most definately applies to paradox. All I can say is there are some release from Matrix over the last couple of years that have left a LOT to be desired in the support department. So while its true that Paradox isnt very good at supporting and fixing their games.....Matrix doesnt have a spotless record any longer either. Not to mention that making more money doesnt automatically mean less quality and support,...unless Matrix allows it to happen,.......which still wouldnt have anything to do with money but instead with character.

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: jomni

What's the definition of an AAA game?

Well, back in the day, it used to be big budget and big sales figures.

Wing Commander III (Heart of the Tiger) kind of started the big budget race, with an amount of 4 million dollars, a sum unknown in the game sector before (in 1994).
Origin used to have a rep as company that produced quality along with their AAA games, Blizzard used to have the same rep with say StarCraft, but quality is not necessarily part of an AAA game.
Nowadays, I guess it just comes down to the budget/marketing efforts, as even quite some AAA titles don't generate good sales figures. That, of course, may deal with the decreasing quality of games and the lack of time (or knowledge) for testing.

Some ppl may define AAA as professional quality game, with "high quality visuals" (one should add recent technologies) and "audio", professional and fleshed out script and professional (sounding) voice acting, like some guy (Weatherby) points out in a comment for this blog:

http://www.gameproducer.net/2009/10/24/ ... efinition/

I would agree there. For example, localized German versions of AAA game titles often sound like some students or high school nerds did the voice overs, basically turning the game into an A(A) title, for me. The bad localization then clearly shows that the producers were too miserable to put out a proper budget for that part of the production. Another reason for me to obtain US/EN versions.

In rating agencies, "Triple A" or AAA refers to "Excellent", Triple-A also stands for "high quality", premier or excellent. "Triple A" is also used in US minor league baseball - referring to the highest class in that league, which is one level below major league baseball (MLB).

[Martin James]

I'm reluctant to criticise Matrix about their pricing strategy. Matrix is a business and they will aim to maximise their profit. And why shouldn't they? If selling more at a lower price is going to increase revenue, I'm sure they would be keen to do that, but these games are never going to be mainstream. I think they are best placed to make that call on a game by game basis.

I agree with battles_atlas re VAT however. I live in the UK and purchased 'Decisive Campaigns' a few days ago. The Matrix site lists it as £27.99 for download, but the real price for UK purchasers is £33.59. The only people purchasing in £ sterling will be UK residents, and I'm not sure how anyone could legitimately claim back the VAT. True, you do get the opportunity to change your mind part way through the order process once you know about it, but (as I know!) you are mentally committed by that time. Not illegal, but not good practice either.

[IainMcNeil]

Just wanted to comment on the VAT - the prices are shown Ex VAT but that is because we don't know what VAT to apply until you start the purchase process and enter your payment details. I can understand the frustration but VAT varies wildly and we don't have any way to keep up to date with it so have to rely on the payment processors to do that. Many places don't even have to pay it. We'd love to not charge anyone VAT but it's the law. We don't actually collect or see VAT on any payments. This is all collected and remitted by the payment provider. We never see a penny of the money for VAT go through our accounts. I'm not sure how others deal with it - maybe they require you have an account with a card set up already so they can verify your location. We don't enforce this and allow users to buy annonymously but that measn we can't tell the actual proce you'll pay till you enter that info. Even then, as I say we dont have any information on what VAt to actually charge so we'd need new layer of complexity on top of the current system to deal with that. All I know is it is not something we are able to do.

[Erik Rutins]

As Iain said, without requiring you to be logged in with an account with your personal information, there's no way we can show the VAT until we've collected that information. Currency is not an infallible guide to the VAT rate. There are many different VAT rates in Europe, and far fewer different currencies. Setting VAT based on IP as we do with the initial currency sleection is also not infallible and we have to make sure that we are charging the correct VAT.

As far as pricing in general, when we first started the company, there was the "budget bin" in retail. Now there are the Steam sales. In both cases, these generally deal with mainly mainstream titles that have already achieved most of their sales and are purely looking for incremental profit. While some of our games are aimed at a more mainstream audience, many are not and the pricing philosophies that work for mass market titles would simply put our developers out of business. The prices you see on Steam are set the same way as ours, to maximize profit and ensure that the business and our developers can continue to make these kinds of game. It would make us all very happy indeed if we could charge you $5 per game instead of $30-40, but that comes down to the reality of the economics, not to personal choice.

With that said, we do try to make our games available at a lower price point as often as we can. If our current prices are too high for your budget, we run sales on a fairly regular basis. Every month we have a coupon for a significant discount (up to 50%) in our newsletter and every holiday season we put most of our titles on sale for over a month at 33% or more off.

Regards,

- Erik

[GoodGuy]

ORIGINAL: Iain McNeil

We never see a penny of the money for VAT go through our accounts. I'm not sure how others deal with it

Well, other US businesses simply don't charge VAT, as they (or their payment processors) don't succumb to the impertinent (if not protectionist) European tax laws (governing overseas purchases of EU citizens), like Digital River does. They don't fall and they don't have to fall for European pressure to put up additional paperwork and accounting resources, which is (if carried out) a big burdon, especially on US small and medium businesses.

We'd love to not charge anyone VAT but it's the law.

Lützow and me duscussed this in detailed postings in a Matrix Forum thread, Erik - you might remember that, a while ago.
Actually, it's not the law for US businesses. The European union has no authority in the US and in how US businesses conduct their payment processes. Matrix is an american business based in the US.

If you "would love" not to charge VAT, then you could have just ceased doing business with Digital River, there are many many other trustworthy payment processors out there, and I'm sure there are other feasable solutions regarding warehousing/prints for shipping to the EU. The VAT is being applied by DI, just because Digital River has warehouses and departments in the EU, so they have to play according to the EU rules. THAT is the only reason for them charging VAT, as their European HQ used to be registered in Luxemburg (IIRC) and probably still is. They even have departments in Ireland, Germany, Shanghai and Brazil now.

Let me word it a bit harsh: The question is whether Matrix really wants to support greedy EU authorities or not.... Whatsoever, EU authorites have NO jurisdiction in the US of A, and I'm sure every US lawyer and every reasonable US business owner will see it the same way. What I do know, for sure, is that most -if not all- EU customers of Matrix would really love Matrix to cease applying VAT (through DI or whatever payment service).

On a sidenote, the Digital River payment site charged 16% VAT for Matrix customers from Germany even AFTER Germany had raised import tax and VAT to 19%, for the longest time (2-4 years).
As a result, German Matrix customers owe German tax authorities money, just because DI failed to update their tax infos in the software.
That leads to the next question, which I already raised in the thread I mentioned above:
Does Digital River transfer the VAT for German (and other countries') tax authorities at all, or did they just transfer the 16%, where it wasn't noticed by German authorities (as they just received the total sum as one payment, every year)?
I still doubt that German authorities would have been satisfied with 16%, IF the actual VAT amount was 19% at the time, already.

Such payment processors should not be supported/used by Matrix, imho.

EDIT: By the way, it's against the law not to mention the VAT amount until AFTER you have authorized the payment, in Germany.

So, if you play by EU protectionist tax rules (which isn't necessary), you (or your payment processor) should at least play by national (means by each EU country's) customer protection laws and civil laws.