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RE: M60 vs Pelton

 
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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/26/2012 12:55:04 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGS




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 241
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/26/2012 1:04:11 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 65
German Arm PTs in pool= 34,000
German Manpower in pool= 80,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 159
Russian losses this turn: 66,000 Total dead: 5,860,000
Russian OOB: 6,271,000
A net gain of: +41,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 12
GHC OOB: 3,534,000
GHC net OOB change: -3,000

Last turn I started moving 70% of my mech units south by rail and moving other units. I have desided to attack in the bend of the Don River because its easyer to defend my flanks, limited rail system for the M60 into the area, the more space I can gain south of Oka the better for 1943 and there is some sweet corps bunched at an area I can easly cut off.

I should beable to exploit this pocket hopefully bag more over the next few turns.

There are several other sweet spots allong the line I will try to pocket once mud ends.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 242
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/26/2012 3:48:59 AM   
sath

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline 		That is some chrome Russian units in that pocket

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 243
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 2:05:37 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sath

That is some chrome Russian units in that pocket


A set back for sure for M60. My CV's might be low on average per mech division but I have allot of them with a few strong ones mixed in.

18th army is refitting in another area of the front along with 8 other mech divisions.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to sath)
Post #: 244
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 2:37:35 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5747
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Tank corps have zero business defending on the front line. Zero. They ought to be placed in the rear somewhere in reserve mode. Ditto for cavalry corps for that matter. They can hit and run on the Soviet turn, but defending isn't their forte.



_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 245
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 12:21:26 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tank corps have zero business defending on the front line. Zero. They ought to be placed in the rear somewhere in reserve mode. Ditto for cavalry corps for that matter. They can hit and run on the Soviet turn, but defending isn't their forte.





He is not using them for defence, but attacking with them.

M60 has 2 areas he is attacking in, this one was smallist of the 2.

But having said that attacking in 42 as Russian is a very bad idea, unless you clearly have the upper hand. Its just to easy for the Germans to cut these formations off, because the flanks are always very weak.

I am forming up a much more powerfully offensive to cut off his other spearhead if he leaves it hanging for me to cut off.

Pelton

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 246
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 12:57:17 PM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sath

That is some chrome Russian units in that pocket


... but what is outside the pocket?
Could he bring enough riflecorps for rescue? But not matter what he do, there are no good moves at the moment.

You have a lot of mech reserves here, Pelton, you are not only ready for a second envelopment, but for third round for sure... not a good idea to try a melee here, it will become only worser.

This is nasty, he has probably harvested them for a long time, honestly it must be a painful experience (yeah, I feel a bit sorry for him, BUT this was SO obvious to happen, it's really hurting)

But I had to question your deep penetration in the pyranha's pool the turn before, Pelton... Ah, better we forget that.

Regarding his recent losses, his units looked to be at nearly full strengh, > 90 % TOE? This would explain his decimated oob, he is running out of counters...
The dark side is mighty here.



< Message edited by Wuffer -- 1/27/2012 1:02:19 PM >

(in reply to sath)
Post #: 247
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 1:37:59 PM   
juret

 

Posts: 175
Joined: 10/17/2011
Status: offline 		how many tank corps in that pocket ? 6? and 2 guard cavs and whut more ?

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 248
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 2:19:59 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5747
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tank corps have zero business defending on the front line. Zero. They ought to be placed in the rear somewhere in reserve mode. Ditto for cavalry corps for that matter. They can hit and run on the Soviet turn, but defending isn't their forte.





He is not using them for defence, but attacking with them.

M60 has 2 areas he is attacking in, this one was smallist of the 2.

But having said that attacking in 42 as Russian is a very bad idea, unless you clearly have the upper hand. Its just to easy for the Germans to cut these formations off, because the flanks are always very weak.

I am forming up a much more powerfully offensive to cut off his other spearhead if he leaves it hanging for me to cut off.

Pelton


I disagree, it is perfectly fine to attack with the Soviets in 1942. The key is to hit and run. He plainly didn't run enough with those tank corps. They should have been much further back than that, and NOT stacked. Spread them out. Put each and every one of them on reserve unless they need to be refitted. Instead, he bunched them up near the front and put them in a position to pocket them. This is just a misuse of tank corps, I'm sorry.

They should end their turn well behind an infantry screen and dispersed. Then on the Soviet turn, march forward and strike at targets of opportunity. Fall back and disperse. Rinse and repeat.

The same thing can be done to a much more limited extent with even rifle forces (but the trick for them is to fall back to their forts.) Eventually you'll create a no man's land where neither side is fortified.


< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 1/27/2012 2:24:14 PM >

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 249
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 2:34:30 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Wuffer


quote:

... but what is outside the pocket?
Could he bring enough riflecorps for rescue? But not matter what he do, there are no good moves at the moment.


Nothing really thats why it seemed like easly pickings, no rail close by also.

quote:

You have a lot of mech reserves here, Pelton, you are not only ready for a second envelopment, but for third round for sure... not a good idea to try a melee here, it will become only worser.


Yes I am hoping for more. I am tring to not get explosed myself. This area is good for 1 more pocket then I will look at other areas. I do not have troops to hold any more ground then I have, but I will pocket and retreat for sure.

quote:

But I had to question your deep penetration in the pyranha's pool the turn before, Pelton... Ah, better we forget that.


I wanted to try and straighten the line and possibly bag a few good units, but he is to strong in the area. Rifle corps can push back almost any formation I have now other then 18th infantry army.

After my operations in the south I am putting to gether all my +90 panzer units into 2 corps to work with 18th for future pocketing of any bubbles in the line come blizzard.

quote:

Regarding his recent losses, his units looked to be at nearly full strengh, > 90 % TOE? This would explain his decimated oob, he is running out of counters...
The dark side is mighty here.


most of the units in that pocket were at max %. Before the last patch he was down to 60 AP's per turn and with the hvy losses in units he has been taking I expect his AP is still next to nothing and his unit count is dropping.

His lines are paper thin in allot of areas, so I should beable to still pocket units into snow and blizzard turns.





_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 250
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 2:40:34 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Tank corps have zero business defending on the front line. Zero. They ought to be placed in the rear somewhere in reserve mode. Ditto for cavalry corps for that matter. They can hit and run on the Soviet turn, but defending isn't their forte.





He is not using them for defence, but attacking with them.

M60 has 2 areas he is attacking in, this one was smallist of the 2.

But having said that attacking in 42 as Russian is a very bad idea, unless you clearly have the upper hand. Its just to easy for the Germans to cut these formations off, because the flanks are always very weak.

I am forming up a much more powerfully offensive to cut off his other spearhead if he leaves it hanging for me to cut off.

Pelton


I disagree, it is perfectly fine to attack with the Soviets in 1942. The key is to hit and run. He plainly didn't run enough with those tank corps. They should have been much further back than that, and NOT stacked. Spread them out. Put each and every one of them on reserve unless they need to be refitted. Instead, he bunched them up near the front and put them in a position to pocket them. This is just a misuse of tank corps, I'm sorry.

They should end their turn well behind an infantry screen and dispersed. Then on the Soviet turn, march forward and strike at targets of opportunity. Fall back and disperse. Rinse and repeat.

The same thing can be done to a much more limited extent with even rifle forces (but the trick for them is to fall back to their forts.) Eventually you'll create a no man's land where neither side is fortified.




I agree, his strategy is right same as yours, but his tactics are wrong.

Attacking in 1942 is ok, but an offensive as he is tring in 2 areas is not a good idea. Other AAR's show German players taking advantage of this also.

M60 is low on AP's an has been for a long time plus losing units almost every turn so its hard for him to do and offensive not sure why he exposed some of his best troops as he did. He be far better just hanging back with them and counter atacking until the bleeding stops.

Pelton

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 251
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 3:09:28 PM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline 		ehm, it's not about (counter)attacking or not, it's when and where it's done
He attacks for sure, but in a way that even by good results he wasn't ever in a position to change - at least!! - the area of operations in a radical, sustainable way in his favour.
Did his counterattacking in the south forced Pelton to stiff his front there with significant forces which were missed in the Moscwa theatre? No. So, it was a waste.
The very same corps which are now pocketed had been around there for a very long time, at least several months, but couldnot achieve anything decisive. So, he only delude himself by distracting a lot of firepower from the main axis of attack/defense.

He HAD definitively the necessary forces to disturb Pelton's flankings a few turns before. 


fazit (no personal offense please): piecemeal, local tactical 'issues', no coherent operational plan

We will see another offensives by Pelton, I'm sure.

---
Pelton, I like that you open admit a little brainfurt then and now...
edit: it helps, and is part of the masterplan, I know: Giving your opponent false hopes... Brilliant.

< Message edited by Wuffer -- 1/27/2012 3:11:40 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 252
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 6:29:37 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 617
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		It looks like he isn't doing a Pz count every turn.

If you know where his tanks are, then you can attack relatively comfortably.

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 253
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 7:07:10 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

It looks like he isn't doing a Pz count every turn.

If you know where his tanks are, then you can attack relatively comfortably.



If you look the turn before it appears I have only 1 units in area, but I had 10 others hiding under the minor allies air bases.

The units were up near Moscow one turn, then next under airbases and the next I had a pocket of nice units.

Also I wiped out all the plane factorys in Moscow. So his air forse is not what it should be at this time.

Pelton

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 254
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 7:10:42 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Some would say I am wasting tanks by moving so far, but I have tested the loses based on movement and it run on a %.

So once your panzer divisions get under 75 tanks your only talking a loss of 7 tanks for 40+ MP moves. So basicly my CV stay static because replasement tanks easly keep up when units get below that #.

So you can fight at these levels for all of 42 np. You just have to double stack when needed and stay away from infantry corps, unless your cutting them off heheh

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 255
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 8:29:58 PM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


Also I wiped out all the plane factorys in Moscow. So his air forse is not what it should be at this time.

Pelton


Good argument. I had not thought about it.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 256
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 9:55:24 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 617
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Fair enough Pelton, but I think he should have noticed that 10 Panzer Divisions had "disappeared".

I hate '42 as a Soviet btw!


(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 257
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/27/2012 11:50:08 PM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 661
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		I have made this mistake twice in my current game of getting too cocky as Soviet. Pelton's comment on the flanks being weak is spot on. Keep very strong forces in reserve to save your Red Ar*e if you are going to push those stacked Corps forward.

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 258
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/28/2012 12:18:09 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Encircled

I hate '42 as a Soviet btw!




Its better then the WW I crap of seeing who could dig the most and largest forts.

Probably allot more real now that in hind sight German players know not to throw their forses away on a usless offensive in the far south.

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 259
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/28/2012 4:07:43 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 617
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		No argument there, but you have to judge it right as the Soviet in '42 or you are really going to struggle

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 260
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/28/2012 6:56:44 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 66
German Arm PTs in pool= 37,000
German Manpower in pool= 77,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 171
Russian losses this turn: 239,000 Total dead: 6,029,000
Russian OOB: 6,167,00
A net gain of: -104,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 15
GHC OOB: 3,528,000
GHC net OOB change: -6,000

The pocket is wiped out, about 3000 guns and 1100 tanks are removed from the battle field.

The Russian OOB keeps falling.

AGN/AGC/AGS keep digging in with a few going static.

AGB is driven on by the mad man in charge and pockets another 15 units, 15th and 16th Guards Rifle Corps, 5th Cav corp and 9th and 361st Rifle Corps. Another nice pocket for sure an another set back for M60.


OKH Reserves: 18th Infantry Army 12 (divisions), 2nd and 3rd PZ Armys (10 divisions) are held in reserve.

Just 3 turns of clear weather left.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/28/2012 6:57:21 PM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Encircled)
Post #: 261
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/29/2012 3:11:52 AM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline 		The same procedure as every ...

Pelton ante portas at Stalingrad, but... in a little bit better state then IRL.

You have peltonized him, well done. Not pretty, but effective. REally ugly. OMG! All his harvested corps, that's cruel.

We expect something now. :-)



(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 262
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/29/2012 3:16:48 AM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline 		You will remembered as the man who was responsible for necessary adjustments in patch 1.6


LOL

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 263
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/30/2012 2:23:23 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wuffer

You will remembered as the man who was responsible for necessary adjustments in patch 1.6


LOL



I did help nerf HQ build ups/ Upped tank kia% from movement/ death of 1v1=2v1 after February 42. Screwed up fort decay rates.

I dont like what I am hearing about 1.6, but they do what they think is right. Then we the players will help find the screw-ups and help game balance.

They could at least nerf the ground bombing spamming and the attack spamming, which I am messing around with but have not used in game because its just plain stupid. This really needs to be addressed.

Hopefully this is not like all the patches before 1.05 that over shot by allot to the left and right.

1.05 is about right and only needs a light tweak to the Red side, not some massive shot in the arm that will set the game back months again.

Its still hard to tell what is a game that all things are equal. Most "test" games by dev's dont get past late 42. They are watching ours to see what happens later in war.

I think the best example of all things being equal is BG vs Q-ball (1.05).

Pelton


< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/30/2012 2:24:53 AM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 264
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 12:02:28 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 67
German Arm PTs in pool= 33,000
German Manpower in pool= 80,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 186
Russian losses this turn: 206,000 Total dead: 6,235,000
Russian OOB: 6,167,00
A net gain of: -162,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket: 3
GHC OOB: 3,528,000
GHC net OOB change: ,000

AGN: Digging in.
AGC: Digging in.
AGS: I deside after the pocket is finished of to test the waters to the south.

After I tested how supplies work, how many tanks brakedown(% based) per MP and some air lift data I am thinking taking the oil fields at this time is doable.

Next turn I will explain how it can be done.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 265
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 12:42:49 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5747
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: online 		Don't do it.

_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 266
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 1:06:23 AM   
Farfarer

 

Posts: 661
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline 		Go for the oil! (Not because it is smart, just cause I want to see someone else do it, this time right! :)

The more I play the game I realize the Axis side is about how well you can have an aggressive punishing defence after the 1941 fun. There can be joyful opportunities in 1942 - and few can and should resist as it is after all your last chance before 3 years of counter-attacks.

Now as a Sov, if you are playing for a Decisve win ( and why shouldn't you?) that slog to Berlin against a good German is daunting - and I say that when are usually have 366 ARM ( see Flav comment about Ground Hog Day Evac plan ) nice and safe and all Guards maxed out every year.

Good AAR ( well, save for the, well, you know...) :)

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 267
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 1:10:05 AM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline 		Flavius   :-)
Perhaps you have a deeper knowledge of the engine (is there any significant effect at all?) and by deliberating whether it's worth the risks it's a fair advise...

Pelton, Do It.
I'd  strongly advocate a deep penetration.
This would only be fair, you got him allready.
12 x Inf + 10 x mech in reserve, that's robust. Yes, by grapping some bits and pieces then and now you would easily achieve a good result after grinding it out for 333 more turns... cat and mice-stuff. Nobody would care. So what?

Do you know the israelic principle in wargames? Very easy, the better you are, the harder it gets!

You have hunted him like a torrero, now prepare a final kill, ole.

This is of course a major violation of rational soviet based military logic - but are you playing axis or a girly scout team?

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 268
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 1:10:50 AM   
Wuffer

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline 		fanfarer was quicker... 

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 269
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 1:23:21 AM   
sath

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline 		I think it might be too late in the war/good weather campaign season of 1942 to begin a push for the Baku oil fields. In all honesty I don't see how you have the units to pull it off. Perhaps Mikop at this late stage could be doable.

< Message edited by sath -- 1/31/2012 1:24:42 AM >

(in reply to Wuffer)
Post #: 270
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