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RE: M60 vs Pelton

 
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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/14/2011 1:33:54 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

I think You will have to look for new opponent soon.


LOL

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/14/2011 1:48:18 AM   
Pelton

 

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No hes fine, hes not going to lose more then 50 arm pts and the manpower hit is way over rated even if you take Leningrad,Moscow to Rostov.

I might have the upper hand, but it still probably just be a draw if he sticks it out.

It just be allot of forts from 42 to 45.

Only way I get him to fold is if I can pocket a bunch of units and its really hard to do.

Pelton

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Post #: 32
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/15/2011 1:57:23 PM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 6
27 ARM 5HQ Arm PTs in pool= 73500 Hiwis= 60000
Men in pool= 150000 Dead = 1,150,000

AGN: basicly fighting over other then mopping up. I attack where I can. The generall with drawal of Russian units in the area is beginning. South of Lake Ilmen the general with drawal of the Russians has begun.
More units being rushed to center.




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/15/2011 2:00:56 PM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/15/2011 2:05:02 PM   
Pelton

 

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AGC: waiting on infantry corps, pz corps and railheads.

The general standard withdrawal of russians from the front below Tula line has begun. Why fight when you can run.

Another example of the Russians over all tactic of evacing and running. Getting even 3 million kills will be hard an only possible if M60 even bothers fighting for Moscow.

I have bagged Leningrad and the south will be 100% dead in 2 turn. So only fighting will be around Moscow.

This general standard russian tactic of running is making this game become cookie cutter and a real bore.




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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/15/2011 2:05:38 PM   
Pelton

 

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AGS: Standard issue down here also. Some fighting in front of Production and the standard boring withdrawal of Russian forses from Kharkov to Tula.

This front will be dead from Tula to Rostov in 2 turns. Its just a matter of how far forward I can march before turn 15

Because of a lack of supplys I have no chance for pockets. Why fight when you can evac and run?

Also the totally unrealistic % of tank that I am losing from breakdowns is a uber joke. Tank bug is causing over 50% of tanks in shop to be junked. Also nothing even close to historical is getting produced.






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< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/15/2011 2:09:36 PM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/15/2011 2:10:53 PM   
Pelton

 

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Probably 75% of the front will be dead by turn 10 other then marching and digging.






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< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/15/2011 2:11:53 PM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/15/2011 2:22:39 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
...the standard boring withdrawal of Russian forses from Kharkov to Tula...Why fight when you can evac and run?


OK, we get it, you don't have to mention it in every post, much less multiple times in a single post!

While I generally agree that Sovs should have some incentive for holding cities, I've mentioned before that I don't really see a real solution to this issue other than forcing the Sovs to repeat historical mistakes, while allowing the Germans to avoid them. Is that what you have in mind?

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 37
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/15/2011 2:24:16 PM   
Flaviusx


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If he gives up Moscow, his replacement situation is going to be bad from 42 on. If you grind him by Moscow, you can chew up the Red Army and go through his armament points in a hurry. The Red Army has to make a stand there. You should see my game with James. He's really been giving me a pounding in Moscow and may yet take it.

He'll fight there. I think with this patch the Germans have a real chance at taking both Leningrad and Moscow in addition to the south. This may seem boring to you, it's very much a nail biter on the other side. Some of us think the op tempo in this patch is rather too high. The German is perfectly capable of supporting all these drives.

You are ridiculously ahead of schedule in both the north and south, and this isn't because he's running. It's because of the Lvov opening in the south which makes it hard to defend down there and because Leningrad can't be defended unless heavily reinforced, and possibly not even then. What's left up north after turn 1 won't stop AGN.

With your HQ buildup spam in combination with the Lvov opening, it is impossible to stop a reinforced AGS from crossing the Dnepr around turn 6. SW Front hasn't got the unit density to prevent this. M60 is making it even easier for you by not ZOCing you the way I did.



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Post #: 38
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/15/2011 2:33:29 PM   
Klydon


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Actually, the German tank situation has become more realistic. The fact is the German tanks broke down like crazy in the theater due to lack of spare parts and the ruggedness of the theater. German tank strength in theater dropped to under 200 operational tanks by March 42. Now, a lot of those tanks that were not operational got shipped back to be rebuilt in factories or the troops got them repaired as well as new production, but German tank strength was right at 3k tanks for the start of the summer offensive. That part has not been happening from what I have seen so far in limited exposure. I just recently finished Guderian's book and he said his lead panzer division that closed the Kiev pocket had less than 20 operational tanks (and most of the ones running were panzer II's). This was after the rest/refit period that PG2 and PG3 took to rehabilitate the forces as much as possible before being diverted.

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/15/2011 10:02:48 PM   
Encircled


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 Can't be true that, Pelton says its unhistorical

Guderian?

What does he know!

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/15/2011 10:10:32 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon
I just recently finished Guderian's book and he said his lead panzer division that closed the Kiev pocket had less than 20 operational tanks (and most of the ones running were panzer II's).

Sounds like most of the Panzer divisions in the game between Flavio and myself...

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Post #: 41
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/16/2011 1:02:43 AM   
gingerbread


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If this breakdown rate is how it will be, it becomes even more important to have some way of preserving the experienced tank crews that now are sent back as Manpower. A very rough estimate: 5 crew/tank, 200 tank/division and ~20 divisions gives a total in the order of 20k. That many missing as foot soldiers in the infantry will not make or break the defense during the blizzard, but when the new tanks arrive it could give a difference of 30 or so points of experience/morale for the tank components in the Pz divs.

Obviously tracking each crew is silly, but a shadow pool with 3 variables: number, experience (average) and morale (also average) that is increased when a ground element is eliminated in a non-combat situation and which is then drawn down when a tank is added to a unit.

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Post #: 42
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/16/2011 3:04:40 AM   
Pelton

 

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Hmm all of the last 6 posts I like.

I still feel game is 90% right, but the rail system or the HVY thing needs some TLC.

HQ spam? Come on after 7 turns I have used 7 hq build-ups. Back in the day I have done 14 atleast by now.

Most games I am using less then 10 from turns 1 to 17.

The HQ build ups only have any real effect from turns 4-7 after that it is not really doing much other then for a raid. They simply unbalance the russian defence and thats only if they are not top of the line russian players.

Better then average players like Flaviusx,Hoooper and Kamil dont get unblanced and HQ build-ups really dont do much.
The other 12 poeple I have played paniced and fell apart.

There is an issue with armerments and AFv production. I can't put my finger on it yet and its no wheres near as bad as the 47mm bug, but its there. Hopefully a smarter guy then me can figure it out. When you don't move any tanks for a month and one turn you lose 100 tanks for no good reason there is something screwed up. Kamil vs Pelton and its in tech support area.

Pelton



< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/16/2011 3:05:34 AM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/16/2011 3:23:35 AM   
Pelton

 

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Just wanted to update the pt about afv bug in Kamils game from turns

turn 47 1907
turn 50 2028

Not moving any afvs, no fighting and the numbers are not close to historical. Plus 121 afv's in 4 turns

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2928246

Pelton

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Post #: 44
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/16/2011 3:15:28 PM   
Q-Ball


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I am with Klydon: I think German Ops Losses from Tanks are either on target, or not even enough, IMO in 1941. Historically, they left a trail of broken down tanks all across Russia.

Now, to Klydon's point, alot of those must have been repaired and put back into service by Summer of 1942, because how did the Germans go from such depleted front-line numbers, to 3,000 tanks in 6 months? That can't happen in the game as it stands.

Maybe AFVs need to have a greater chance of breakdown, and longer to repair, but have a much lower chance of permanent write-off

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/16/2011 10:30:50 PM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 7
33 ARM 6HQ Arm PTs in pool= 83500 Hiwis= 68000
Men in pool= 180000 Dead = 1,235,000

Very little contact with enemy. 15 hexes around Leningrad another 15 in front of Moscow and same in south.

Russian numbers growing steadly every turn, I can't run fast enough to keep up with the retreat allong 75% of the front.
I can't blame him for withdrawing why fight? The just is no reason to fight now other then around production centers.







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< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/16/2011 10:39:18 PM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/16/2011 10:31:26 PM   
Pelton

 

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AGC




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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/16/2011 10:32:06 PM   
Pelton

 

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AGS this is turn 8 before moves I forgot to take a picture at end last turn.

But as can be seen there is a general withdrawal from Tula to Kharkov.




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/16/2011 10:34:41 PM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/16/2011 10:34:06 PM   
Pelton

 

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/16/2011 10:38:32 PM   
krupp_88mm


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Pelton you are a legend those spearheads are blitzkrieg textbook, i dont know why more players dont use them concentrated like you





< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 10/16/2011 10:40:27 PM >


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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/21/2011 12:22:32 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 8
33 ARM 6HQ
Arm PTs in pool= 83500
Hiwis= 71000
Men in pool= 204000
Dead = 1,301,000

Leningrad is done so I move LVI PZ corps south and start moving 3 corps of infantry to Moscow area.
Loading up 2 infantry armys with artillary and I have findly turn refit on my mech and panzer units.
I only have my siege infantry army on refit all other corps are ready.

Small pocket in center.

In south I have pulled all tanks from the lines. 12 divisions and 2 regiments resting and refitting. Moral is very high in all the mech units.


























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< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/21/2011 12:33:16 AM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/21/2011 12:23:20 AM   
Pelton

 

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AGC




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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/21/2011 12:23:53 AM   
Pelton

 

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/21/2011 12:24:20 AM   
Pelton

 

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/21/2011 12:25:52 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 9
33 ARM 10HQ
Arm PTs in pool= 88500
Hiwis= 75000
Men in pool= 215000
Dead = 1,411,000

AGN moves out last PZ corps and only Model is left near Leningrad. He was able to take port.

AGC pushs another few hexes towards Moscow. LVI arrives at front all units are at 95% toe or better. No need for a HQ build up they are close to railheads.

AGS All the mech units wait for one more turn. All units are in good shape.

Units are starting to head for winter lines.
















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< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/21/2011 12:38:20 AM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/21/2011 12:26:23 AM   
Pelton

 

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AGC




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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/21/2011 12:26:54 AM   
Pelton

 

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AGS




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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/21/2011 12:27:23 AM   
Pelton

 

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/23/2011 12:39:43 PM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 10
33 ARM 10HQ
Arm PTs in pool= 93500
Hiwis= 82000
Men in pool= 166,000
Dead = 1,600,000 180,000 this turn.

This is my 3rd post 1.05 and leasons learned from first 2 are being applied during this game.

AGN: Leningrad mopped up. Hvy hit in losses for M60 thid turn coupled with large pocket in south I should be able to hold him under 4.5 million by blizzard.

I am going to push allitle harder in AGN area this game for better blizzard positions.




















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< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/23/2011 12:44:57 PM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 10/23/2011 12:40:20 PM   
Pelton

 

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AGC: 7 hexes from Moscow. 18th army is on way with Model, allot of siege equipment and pioneers.
Probably only going to keep 1 pz corps in area for exploitations if I have a chance at one.




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< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/23/2011 12:47:10 PM >

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