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RE: M60 vs Pelton

 
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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/17/2012 6:41:33 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeltonSure my OOB was static from October 1942 to April 1943, but so was his.


That's kind of amazing, and not good for the Sovs...

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/17/2012 7:52:20 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Reserve mode done right is huge.

Whaddya know, you can teach an old dog new tricks!


I am learning every game.

Thats why I put the "I still have no idea what I am doing. " because that is the truth.

Pelton


< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/17/2012 7:53:03 PM >


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Post #: 362
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/17/2012 8:16:32 PM   
BigAnorak


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So my time getting smashed by Flavio, trying to deal with the 1:1 +1 wasn't wasted. :)

A time will come when the soviets will get too big and reserves lose their effectiveness, but I have a couple more tricks that I am testing out in my 1942 sandbox game.

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Post #: 363
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 12:53:50 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

So my time getting smashed by Flavio, trying to deal with the 1:1 +1 wasn't wasted. :)

A time will come when the soviets will get too big and reserves lose their effectiveness, but I have a couple more tricks that I am testing out in my 1942 sandbox game.


Keep me posted on the testing.

I think I have 1941 figured out for the most part 95%. Dont freak out and panic if Moscow doent fall during 41 :)

I now have a counter to TDV's insane blizzard army of cav/tank ants :) and the rest of the tactics the reds can throw at me during blizzard.

I have a very good idea of what needs to be done during 42 and a possible counter to the rifle division carpet during 42.

I now know how to use the reserve mode, which opens up a ton of tactical options during summer of 43. It is a nice toy which you can pile on right where the Red Machine wants to push. You can shorten the fronts of armys to 2 to 4 hex, which means you get 1 to 3 reserve pops. finally a counter to artillary blobs hehehe.
Now Red players will have to do more then pile on and do the standard bolb push heheheh This makes 1943 a wash. As you say reserve mode will fail after a while.

So during 42 pushing for space and grinding can work.

Game is amazing complex with allot of possible ways to win for both sides. There seems to be a counter for everything, just hard to find it some times.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3037506

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Post #: 364
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 1:09:21 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeltonSure my OOB was static from October 1942 to April 1943, but so was his.


That's kind of amazing, and not good for the Sovs...


The reason grinding is possible and you saw me do it in this AAR during 42/43 (snow blizzard snow) is the amount of manpower I was able to overrun. I emailed M60 and he was nice enough to let me know how many replacements per turn he was getting ect.

As you know I track OOB size and losses ect. Based on what I was seeing I had a very good idea he was not getting that many replasements and I had 60 units in static mode.

So based on that I figured I could grind at 2.5/2 to 1 ratio and keep OOB's static. Buying time and space.

Then thankfully Big A showed me how to do reserve mode right. Which means at any spot in the lines I can hold off any attack. M60 only had a few hexs he could attack not covered by a river. So I had a large number of mech units covering small fronts.

Looking back at your game vs Katza I do not think Katza was using reserve mode nearly as good as he could have been using it.

But we will never know now for sure.





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Post #: 365
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 2:37:51 AM   
Farfarer

 

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I assess that the Red Air Force is not being used to "eliminate" Reserve forces correctly. By autumn 43 IMHO you can make the Russian Front resemble Normandy. This is possible selectively much earlier. Break those Mobile divisions into vulnerable regiments - make my U2VS day ( or night) - another reason not to destroy these factories by sending them to Minsk. There are other evil play techniques to bring down Ju52 and Bomber refuellers - but I ain't tellin'.


P.S. I like your Panzer Ball ( though I don't use it ) and I like the (Flavius's) Red Corps Swarm ( and use it) , and play both sides.

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Post #: 366
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 4:18:52 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

I assess that the Red Air Force is not being used to "eliminate" Reserve forces correctly. By autumn 43 IMHO you can make the Russian Front resemble Normandy. This is possible selectively much earlier. Break those Mobile divisions into vulnerable regiments - make my U2VS day ( or night) - another reason not to destroy these factories by sending them to Minsk. There are other evil play techniques to bring down Ju52 and Bomber refuellers - but I ain't tellin'.


P.S. I like your Panzer Ball ( though I don't use it ) and I like the (Flavius's) Red Corps Swarm ( and use it) , and play both sides.



The old school Red air forse ruleset has been replased, 1.05 PLUs M60 lost all the Moscow factories which basicly grounded the red airforse. I am leaving ground support on at this point and not losing much for planes. The air war ended Nov 1941 when Moscow fell.

Its easy to keep the Red airforse a non factor until late 43 now.

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Post #: 367
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 11:39:05 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Looking back at your game vs Katza I do not think Katza was using reserve mode nearly as good as he could have been using it.


I'm not how much he used it, but the thing is (as far as I know) that once the Sovs have enough ooomph behind the attack (as I did in some of mine), the computer would not even commit reserves, because I guess it figured that it wouldn't matter. I think reserves might have stopped one or two full-blown assaults; usually, if reserves were committed in such attacks, they didn't help.

I found his use of reserves to be a real economy of force killer; he would put a lone regiment in a hex, I would attack with a couple corps and get spanked because reserves were committed...so I had to use big stacks even against sole regiments if I wanted to be sure to win. Great way to slow the Sovs down.

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Post #: 368
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 1:46:54 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm


quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Looking back at your game vs Katza I do not think Katza was using reserve mode nearly as good as he could have been using it.


I'm not how much he used it, but the thing is (as far as I know) that once the Sovs have enough ooomph behind the attack (as I did in some of mine), the computer would not even commit reserves, because I guess it figured that it wouldn't matter. I think reserves might have stopped one or two full-blown assaults; usually, if reserves were committed in such attacks, they didn't help.

I found his use of reserves to be a real economy of force killer; he would put a lone regiment in a hex, I would attack with a couple corps and get spanked because reserves were committed...so I had to use big stacks even against sole regiments if I wanted to be sure to win. Great way to slow the Sovs down.


15.5.1
A defending reserve unit will not commit to a battle if the odds are less then 1 to 2.

So it appears that if there are enough reserves near by to lower odds below 1 to 2.

1. a leadership check is done. Leader ship Int of 7, you need a roll of 1-7 out of 10 70%. Thats at Corp lvl, if that fails then army, then AG then OKH.
2. an MP check is done, which in most cases would never fail unless the unit has commited several other times.

I think your right and wrong about only slowing down russian army. During 1943 it should not be that hard to hold the line.
As defending CV will be high and German player can put 9 and 8 int leaders at the point of attack, plus shorten army fronts, increase the number of panzer units at the point of attack.

This will at some point fall apart as Big A pointed out.

I beleive in your game Katza had stated that putting small units in front was not working as he thought. It was a mistake I beleive. If the defending CV is 30ish then the required amount of reserves to commit is not that many to get 1 to 2 odds.

2 stacks of rifle corps is about 100 attacking CV, which would probably be a best case. Some cv will be lost to defending art, but not much.

Defending in most cases during 1943 is 30 to 50 CV.

The fort lvl could get taken down and troops in hex disrupted, possibly dropping hex CV to 15 ish in best case.

The defender has 4 divisions all mech/panzer with CV's averaging 20 each. Which is not out of the question.
Some elite units have around 30 by early 43.

Even with a huge attack with 6 rifle corp and artillary it is not out of the question that the defender could get 40 CV to commit to battle and put the odds at 1 to 2, before the final battle roll.

So I can see where the German player if he puts an army in front of the standard blob russian forse tring to break the fort line( 6-8 reserve units defending a short front of 6 hexs) he can and will stop a blob push more then likely. Now this will work for a while unit German forses are worn down.

I beleive that in the case of this game vs M60 he can't ware me down because of the amount of manpower pt's I have over ran. Until late 1944 putting the game in the range of a major German victory and minor victory for sure.

Done right this should forse the russian army into attacking allong the front and not at a point in the line at least during the summer of 1943.

Pelton

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Post #: 369
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 1:53:25 PM   
Pelton

 

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If the Russian player attacks to early (late 1942 to early 43) this can also be a disaster and a chance for the German player to counter attack and pocket units as the German army grows quickly during 43.

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Post #: 370
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 4:22:12 PM   
Flaviusx


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Yes, sufficiently strong attacks will cancel reserve commitment. But it still serves a purpose even by doing just that -- it drives up the force requirements of the offensive, and limits the numbers of attacks. Ultimately this is how I got around Bob's defense in playtesting, after suffering a few bloody noses by the Kursk area I said the hell with that and just piled everything on to the Stalino area where the German defense is very weak in the 43 scenario. In a 41 GC you'll never see the south this weak, however. Indeed, you'll likely never see the Wehrmacht anywhere near as weak generally. Most Germans can contrive to have a half million or more men than the 43 GC gives them.

As far as attacking too early...don't agree. The Soviet needs to be looking for places to attack everywhere all the time, from 42 onwards and start grinding on the Wehrmacht wherever the opportunity presents itself. The key is to not overcommit yourself to this and start throwing away stuff in illusory breakthrough operations. Stick to grinding. Merely passsively receiving German attacks in 1942 is a recipe for failure. The problem Soviet players are having is finding a proper balance here. There is a tendency to create undifferentiated lines accross the front, which is poor economy of force. This will be too weak to meet the panzer ball where ever it shows up, and not strong enough to attack with. Quiet sectors need to be stripped to the bone, reserves created, and from those then meet the panzer ball with the rifle swarm, while setting some stuff aside to launch attacks in areas far away from said panzer ball. You have to be able to envision the entire front to get the proper balance of forces.

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Post #: 371
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 5:09:26 PM   
Pelton

 

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And that is what makes the Game great.

There is no set piece way of doing stuff, every game is different.

Pelton

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Post #: 372
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 5:10:56 PM   
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Excuse a simple question,, but I have seen Soviet defenses 3-5 hexes deep in the AARs. It seems to me that putting all of the Soviet units except those in the first line on reserve status should ensure that any German attack along that line will be met by a HUGE defense strength, especially if every unit within 6 hexes of the attacked hex rolls for the defense as indicated in the manual, not to mention all of the attached sub-units.

Henri

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Post #: 373
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 5:19:39 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

Excuse a simple question,, but I have seen Soviet defenses 3-5 hexes deep in the AARs. It seems to me that putting all of the Soviet units except those in the first line on reserve status should ensure that any German attack along that line will be met by a HUGE defense strength, especially if every unit within 6 hexes of the attacked hex rolls for the defense as indicated in the manual, not to mention all of the attached sub-units.

Henri


The problem in 41 and 42 is that Russian leadership blows. There are only so many AP pts to spend.

German leader #'s are 9-7 with some cases being 9,9,8,8 OKH to Corp.

8421 is the first guy I have seen get a small # of russian units to pop and that was only near Moscow, which means he probably had good leaders there.

By the time the Russian player can afford to spend ap's moving leaders around the German tide has crested.

This is a historical reflextion. Russian leaders did hardly anything on there own, unlike German officers who were taught to react to what was going on.

Any Russian leader that did something on his own was shot. Stalin could not have anyone who could think on their own as that would be a threat him.

All the Russian officers who could react and think on there own were shot during the purges before the war started.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 3/18/2012 5:25:06 PM >


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Post #: 374
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 5:31:30 PM   
Flaviusx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

Excuse a simple question,, but I have seen Soviet defenses 3-5 hexes deep in the AARs. It seems to me that putting all of the Soviet units except those in the first line on reserve status should ensure that any German attack along that line will be met by a HUGE defense strength, especially if every unit within 6 hexes of the attacked hex rolls for the defense as indicated in the manual, not to mention all of the attached sub-units.

Henri

This is basically correct provided you put Zhukov in STAVKA. Quantity has a quality of its own and with enough stuff on reserve, something will activate. But you have to put Zhukov in charge of the show. He makes up for a lot of the leadership problems. Soviet army leadership is generally bad, and Fronts will either be overloaded or you will have to shunt many forces into STAVKA armies. You cannot be 3-5 deep everywhere along the front, either...nor do you want to be, this is poor economy of force. Note that reserve commitment is itself capped so you cannot get more than a very limited number of units thrown in. Two rifle divisions will cap it, and a single rifle corps will nearly do so.

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Post #: 375
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/18/2012 11:09:15 PM   
henri51


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

...

All the Russian officers who could react and think on there own were shot during the purges before the war started.

Pelton


Except of course for Zhukov, Rokossovski and a few others who were either in Siberia or were very capable in not getting noticed by Stalin...

And Pelton and Flavius thanks for clearing up this important point about reserves. I did not realize that there was a cap on how many units could participate in reserve battles.

henri

< Message edited by henri51 -- 3/18/2012 11:12:16 PM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/19/2012 2:10:21 AM   
randallw

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: henri51

Excuse a simple question,, but I have seen Soviet defenses 3-5 hexes deep in the AARs. It seems to me that putting all of the Soviet units except those in the first line on reserve status should ensure that any German attack along that line will be met by a HUGE defense strength, especially if every unit within 6 hexes of the attacked hex rolls for the defense as indicated in the manual, not to mention all of the attached sub-units.

Henri


For each battle if a reserve unit joins in there begins a running sum, where each reserve committment adds to it ( based on unit size of corps/div/brigade/reg ); once the sum reaches a certain total then the remaining reserve units have to pass an extra dice roll to see if they join. So there reaches a point where it is an impractical possibility of everything within 6 hexes joining the defense.

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Post #: 377
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 3/19/2012 2:10:33 AM   
Farfarer

 

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Like most things, balance works. Enlightened counter-attacks in 1941 with a few good units and good leaders against flanks, suppply lines , and exposed units. Resist "avenger mode' in the Blizzard, and "WOOT! I have Corps!" mindset in 1942.

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Post #: 378
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