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RE: M60 vs Pelton

 
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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 1:39:15 AM   
Wuffer

 

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Well, Maikop first. 

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 1:41:29 AM   
krupp_88mm


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maybe you could do it, but is it worth it? i dont know how this game models the oil situation completely, wont you have to hold it for some time to get a benefit?

It seems the German position in the south east of their line has excellent interior lines, he can ball up and concentrate his striking power in a small area without threat of a flank thanks to the southern sea, mean while his opponent is apparently lacking in counter attack reserves, meaning he has to try to prepare for threats in the south, east and northeast, separated by large distances he cant guard all his potions, from this powerful position you can force him to pull back, question if you grab this new Territory you remove your concentration of forces advantage, perhaps its wiser just to attempt further pockets and force him to keep a very healthy distance, force him to keep reserves in the south other wise you quickly overrun it and then pull back again.. hit and run style, or make a push east for that rail line and cut his transportation network so he cant threaten you from the south anymore and mop it up

anyway whatever happens i know its going to be good

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 1/31/2012 1:44:23 AM >


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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 4:28:28 AM   
Pelton

 

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At this time 1/2 my striking power is more then enough to push aside any flank he has from the Oka south.

I will only need 8 mech units to make the push.

The rest of the panzers from 1st and 4th PG can hang back and refit in the Don bend. Its a large strike forse that can easly pick off anything he trys from the ben south.

I still have 12 85+ morale infantry divisions in reserve and 2nd and 3rd PG in reserve close to his best troops waiting for the rivers to freeze over.

After the 41/42 blizzard froozen rivers are just as good for me as him when hes this weak.

I will only use mech units because I have more then enough air lift for 8 lt units and I will lose zip in tanks as my panzers can rest and refit. The area below Rostov is clear terrain.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/31/2012 4:29:38 AM >


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Post #: 273
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 2:25:18 PM   
Flaviusx


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If M60 knows his business, this isn't going to go anywhere, Pelton. You are just going to stretch your line to the breaking point. Also, lol @ starting this in September.

The real defense of the Caucuses doesn't even begin for a couple of hundred miles south of Rostov -- on the foothills of the mountain range and the Terek river.

If you're going to do this, your much better bet is to roll up his positions on the southern Don and knock him back to Stalingrad. Then, just to be annoying, cut the Stalingrad-Astrakhan rail line.

But you will never get anywhere near the oil, that is to say, Baku. Any attempt to do so will merely lower your unit density to the point where he can actually find someplace to bust a hole in your lines...rather like what happened in real life.

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 3:16:46 PM   
veji1

 

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I think he isn't going to have a line if I understood it correctly, he is more thinking along the lines of an old fashioned razzia with Mech Units. He seems to want to see if he can scare him to get enough wiggle room to reach the oil, trash it and then come back basically.

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 1/31/2012 5:26:01 PM   
sath

 

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yeah but the problem is that its going to be mud weather and mobility and supply will suffer

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/3/2012 2:45:05 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 69
German Arm PTs in pool= 40,000
German Manpower in pool= 70,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 190
Russian losses this turn: 74,000 Total dead: 6,322,000
Russian OOB: 6,116,00
A net gain of: +76,000 men
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,583,000
GHC net OOB change: 31,000

Over-all ratio for the summer was just under 4 to 1. Which was good enough to keep his OOB staic for the summer and mine went up 250,000. Looks like 4 to 1 ratio is the key. As we know that will only happen if the German player can pocket units. Even if you get holds after 42 the ratio is 2.6 to 1. Attacking and winning is only 1.6 to 1.

The Summer of 42 went better then expected. I was able to meet all my goals.
Before I set out I stated that I would like to:
1. Take 300 manpower points and was able to over run 389.
2. Pocket atleast 100 units and I was able to pocket 190.
3. Take Moscow which many thought would be my Verdun. They were wrong.
4. Build morale of the infantry. Almost all units are above 70 now and most are near max TOE.

Its critical as the German player to put 12 infantry under cover during blizzard. Thats in the end why Moscow fell. Its also critical to keep close to 20 panzer units under cover.
Then you must attack during Snow and clear turns to push past forts. End if the russian player runs that plays right into your hands. Push in the center if possible so it forses the russian player to defend more then is possible.

Then just pocket what you can every turn, 10, 20 or more what ever you can get. Just 6 rifle divisions is more then the Russian player can by back. So any pocket larger then that your winning. A nice pocket during snow holds his OOB static.
You dont need some uber pocket, (but that be nice) just pick away.

Every pocket is a setback for the Russian army and buying time for you, plus any extra space gained is more you can trade off down the road.

AGN/AGC(Oka north) I have pulled the Fins out of the lines and all are recovering morale for the fighting late 43 to ealry 44.I have about 50 divisions in static mode with enough ap's to reactivate them all in 1 turn if needed. This will push up my OOB quickly and save me on the order of 1 million men. I am alrdy 2 deep in forts allong most of the fort. The terrain is great for defending so it be very hard for M60 to push much in this area. I have a few armored formations in reserve refitting. I dont expect much to happen up here, but wish it would. Its the longest distance from Berlin.





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< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/3/2012 3:00:00 AM >


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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/3/2012 2:56:39 AM   
Pelton

 

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AGC




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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/3/2012 2:57:17 AM   
Pelton

 

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AGB




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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/3/2012 2:59:17 AM   
Pelton

 

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AGS; I went fishing down by the oil fields but did not get a bite heheh.

Panzers and Mech units are refitting.






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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/3/2012 3:20:24 AM   
Pelton

 

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What to expect for the coming yr.

1. I expect M60 to start to try and build back his morale. Little attacks here and there along front where he can. A pain in the butt, but none factors for atleast a yr.
2. I expect M60 to start a push in one small area on the front. Standard MO for 43 for Russians. Probably south of Oka.
I can counter this one of 2 ways. I was able vs Kamil's huge 10 million man horde to hold him back for 1 yr by going blow for blow. Basicly a no mans zone between the 2 armys. With 60 units in static mode. One can funnel all your replasements into 4 infantry corps to keep toe maxxed out and bash it out.
The other way is to attack M60's flanks forsing him to defend his flanks. vs kamil this was not possible, but might be vs M60 as his horde is 3 million men smaller then Kamils was at the start of 1943.

The best way would be to keep pocketing a few units and hit his flanks, then when his forses become to strong I will still have 18th army to bash it out for another 12 months.

Then at some point this exchange will be to costly and other areas of front will get pushed and I will be forsed into total defend mode.

After playing Hoooper and Kamil its important to try and stay on the offensive for as long as possible. I dug in vs Kamil March 42 and by June 44 things are bad. he was able to build whatever he wanted from March 42 until June 44. M60 has been and still is replasing units and has been held static for 7 months. So I have atleast bought myself 7 months and 20 to 30 hexes to east.

So right now I am looking at atleast a draw and probably a minor victory.

It all depends on how the winter plays out. If I am able to still pocket units during the winter then I have bought even more time.



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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 1:30:02 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 74
German Arm PTs in pool= 100,000
German Manpower in pool= 70,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 190
Russian losses this turn: 74,000 Total dead: 6,415,000
Russian OOB: 6,385,00
A net gain of: men
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,636,000
GHC net OOB change:

Things have been static during mud and now that snow begins M60 pulls back from Rostov to the don bend. He withdraws as soon as a few tanks get near the front.

I am waiting for rivers to freeze so I can advantage of this weakness. I should be able to sweep the lines at will and get more terrain and kill off more troops. In five turns his OOB has only increased by 300,000 men Hes not getting many replacements.

I am sure he has got next to nothing in ap pts. A few good pocket would set him back months.





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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 1:31:47 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 75
German Arm PTs in pool= 107,000
German Manpower in pool= 70,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 190
Russian losses this turn: 74,000 Total dead: 6,415,000
Russian OOB: 6,438,00
A net gain of: +52,000
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,647,000
GHC net OOB change: +11,000

Looks like M60 is only gaining about 52,000 men per turn. His attrition rate was 40,000 and mine 17,000. He is still out gaining me by 40,000 men per turn.

I could go static, but I think the best move is to punch a hole throw the lines and threaten his best units flank southern flank north of Tomboy. Then try and push north Pocketing units as I go. The rivers will be froze soon and most of the ground to the east will just be clear hexes with no rivers. This should gain me another few months and if I get lucky allot more time.

If I don't strike soon I will never get another chance. Basicly I am looking to upset his offensive’s as I did in the south.





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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 1:33:39 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 77
German Arm PTs in pool= 107,000
German Manpower in pool= 70,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 190
Russian losses this turn: 70,000 Total dead: 6,484,000
Russian OOB: 6,506,00
A net gain of: +64,000
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,675,000
GHC net OOB change: -7,000

Operation Cut Rails and buy some Time is about to begin. I am hoping to breakout and push north, sweeping to cut off the rail lines his best troops are using to start his push west. Hopefully I can bag some units to keep the count even.

I have moved all the Mech units into 4 corp. This cuts down greatly on the loss of afvs as mech units have few when I HQ up. All mech units have HQed up for the loss of a handful of AFV’s.
The Panzer units will work with infantry to punch the hole and any extra units will be used to hold flanks. Several corp. from 18th will follow up and be flank support.

This will be my first winter operation of this size, should be interesting.








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< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/13/2012 1:34:52 AM >


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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 1:38:15 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 78
German Arm PTs in pool= 121,000
German Manpower in pool= 45,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 190
Russian losses this turn: 21,000 Total dead: 6,504,000
Russian OOB: 6,584,00
A net gain of: +78,000
Russian units currently in a pocket: 6
GHC OOB: 3,699,000
GHC net OOB change: +24,000

The second turn of Operation by Time is quite, but successful. Only 11 attacks made, losses were light for both side as both OOB’s grew. More ground was taken and 6 enemy divisions cut off. The goal of the north right hook was achieved as the rail line supplying M60’s best units was cut. A small push is being made with a few mech brigades for a posable larger pocket if M60 doesn’t withdraw quickly.

The left hook is doing nicely also with another small push to the south in hopes of closing the net.

Chances are both operations are going to fail to close major pockets, but the main goal is to get M60 to give up ground, to BY TIME. Loses in men and tanks is very light and production is more then making up for losses so far. All MT divisions are in the area of operations or on way. Supplies are a pain, but each turn I am able to fly in enough to keep units out of red. Only flying in fuel to the dozen mech divisions. Railheads are being push out. I am guessing M60 supplies will be low in atleast the northern pocket area because of distance to railheads.





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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 1:40:59 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 78
German Arm PTs in pool= 121,000
German Manpower in pool= 45,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 190
Russian losses this turn: 21,000 Total dead: 6,504,000
Russian OOB: 6,584,00
A net gain of: +78,000
Russian units currently in a pocket: 6
GHC OOB: 3,699,000
GHC net OOB change: +24,000

The second turn of Operation by Time is quite, but successful. Only 11 attacks made, losses were light for both side as both OOB’s grew. More ground was taken and 6 enemy divisions cut off. The goal of the north right hook was achieved as the rail line supplying M60’s best units was cut.

The left hook is doing nicely also with another small push to the south in hopes of closing the net.

Chances are both operations are going to fail to close major pockets, but the main goal is to get M60 to give up ground, to BY TIME. Loses in men and tanks is very light and production is more then making up for losses so far. All MT divisions are in the area of operations or on way. Supplies are a pain, but each turn I am able to fly in enough to keep units out of red. Only flying in fuel to the dozen mech divisions. Railheads are being push out. I am guessing M60 supplies will be low in atleast the northern pocket area because of distance to railheads.





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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 1:41:37 AM   
Pelton

 

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South




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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 2:21:15 AM   
randallw

 

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The Eastern Front has it's very own West-Wall...or should I say 'East-Wall'?

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 8:45:19 AM   
AFV


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Good to see you again Pelton.

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 10:54:57 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 79
German Arm PTs in pool= 129,000
German Manpower in pool= 54,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 196
Russian losses this turn: 96,000 Total dead: 6,600,000
Russian OOB: 6,541,00
A net gain of: -43,000
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,692,000
GHC net OOB change: -7,000

So far so good. Just the 6 units lost lowered his OOB. 43,000. He’s only receiving about 55,000 replacements a turn I guess. I moved up some units to try and dig in 2 more rows of trenches. Looks now like we coming up against Rifle corp stacks. I am tring to get 1 corps in position to take down a few stack and thrust past the first line.

Movement for both sides is slow. I am converting rail lines. I cut a few more hexes of tracks. Hopefully lack of supplies will force a general withdrawal by him. If I can keep pressure on until summer would be great.

He is going to need allot more rifle corps before he can start advance, hopefully I am causing him to burn up more trucks then he wants also.

So far my tank numbers are static and my OOB in manpower has gone up 20,000 during this operation.

I have so far been able to take advantage of my more mobile forses to keep the battles per turn low and have gained time and space.




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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/13/2012 11:33:12 AM   
krupp_88mm


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Pelton is no one trick pony it appears! This is terrible for M60, he must be just sick over this, i can tell because hes a little hoarse. Don't stop riding him pelton hes on his last two legs.

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 2/13/2012 11:40:24 AM >

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/14/2012 1:13:55 PM   
AFV


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Are you tempted to go on a eastward joyride for a couple hundred miles into Mother Russia?

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/14/2012 2:32:25 PM   
Seminole


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How close to automatic victory?

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/14/2012 4:13:31 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

How close to automatic victory?


Not even close really 32 points. Thats allot of distance to be covered for the last 32.

I think the VP system as many other do is really in need of being lowered to 260 or 270.

Once 43 rolls around I think I can keep his OOB static as it has been for a month, but the morale time line will forse down my CV. As it did in Tarhunnas case.

Pelton



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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/14/2012 4:40:00 PM   
Seminole


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Were your previous wins concessions, or have you hit the auto victory cap in '41 and '42 with earlier iterations of the game?

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/14/2012 4:55:47 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

Were your previous wins concessions, or have you hit the auto victory cap in '41 and '42 with earlier iterations of the game?


All concessions. I dont beleive anyone has hit a VP on an AAR. Long Long before that most fair minded poeple know when enough is enough.

270 would probably be a good number. If it was the number I would have gotten it alrdy.

Most of what I am doing now is buying time. By having him chase me around and not start pounding down my morale.

Tanks are next to usless anyways under current system. 1 shot cannons. Then they have to sit around for a month to get back to 20 cv.

If you look at late war AAR's GHC has 5000+ tanks. But you really cant do much with them as the combat lose ratio is so high that one attack and the CV drops in 1/2.

I have learnt allot from late war GC. Push push all the time, once you stop your toast. German army recovers really fast with static mode. So I will keep attacking until below 3.5 million. My attacking is keeping his OOB static and mybee he will screw up and I get a good pocket. I have a late 1943 line almost finished so I could co all out IF M60 makes a mistake.

If no mistakes I just keep breaking through and causing him to give ground, while I dig in and keep my Infantry morale up.

VPing out is kinda like Hvy industry and oil, window dressing at this time.

Hopefully at some point all 3 will mean something.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 2/14/2012 4:58:39 PM >


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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/14/2012 5:44:26 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

All concessions. I dont beleive anyone has hit a VP on an AAR. Long Long before that most fair minded poeple know when enough is enough.


Wasn't sure, but that's what I thought. Lends credence to the VP conditions needing adjustment, because you've whupped up on some folks, yet it seems like if they hang on by their fingernails little more than a draw is in the cards.

quote:

Push push all the time, once you stop your toast.


"Now there's another thing I want you to remember. I don't want to get any messages saying that "we are holding our position." We're not holding anything. Let the Hun do that. We are advancing constantly and we're not interested in holding onto anything except the enemy. We're going to hold onto him by the nose and we're going to kick him in the ass. We're going to kick the hell out of him all the time and we're going to go through him like crap through a goose!" - Patton (the movie)

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RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/16/2012 12:37:31 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 80
German Arm PTs in pool= 123,000
German Manpower in pool= 71,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 196
Russian losses this turn: 50,000 Total dead: 6,650,000
Russian OOB: 6,533,00
A net gain of: -7,000
Russian units currently in a pocket:
GHC OOB: 3,686,000
GHC net OOB change: -6,000

On the north side I keep the rail line cut, on the southern side I cut the rail.
I am pushing everything I have now to the southern side. A very large pocket is possible.
Movement is slow for sure. I move planes closer to southern wing.
1 interesting thing taking place is I am attacking allot now and my OOB is only going down 6,000 per turn. With no pockets this turn I force down his OOB –7,000. If this holds for another turn I am going to ramp up attacks. This is the same issue TVD was having.

It might be possible he is having a truck issue. I have only used 1 HQ this hole operation as there is on up side during blizzard. In 3 turns I have only pocketed 6 divisions yet his OOB has dropped





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(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 298
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/16/2012 12:39:38 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 6398
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Turn 81
German Arm PTs in pool= 125,000
German Manpower in pool= 83,000
Manpower Pts over run during 1942 = 389
Russian Units Destroyed during 1942 = 196
Russian units currently in a pocket:
Russian losses this turn: 36,000 Total dead: 6,686,000
Russian OOB: 6,534,00
A net gain of: 1,000
GHC losses this turn: 00,000 Total dead: 2,167,000
GHC OOB: 3,659,000
GHC net OOB change: -27,000

North GHC keeps rail lines cut and defensive positions are taken up. I will try to keep the line cut for as long as possible. 3 corp. are rushed to southern part of bulge.
South GHC panzers push south as 6th army starts pushing north east. 1 mech division was cut of , but they were able to break free. I beleive I stand a much better chance of rolling up the south. This will give me allot more breathing room come late 43. So far I have been able to keep M60 OOB below 6,600,000 and mine above 3,500,000. My tank numbers are also staying above 2,500.

As long as I can keep both GHC and SHC #’s static I will keep attacking. The SHC takes another hit next turn as far as the manpower # goes.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC WitE 24 - 4 - 8
GHC WitW 0 - 0 - 0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DiSQ36zfWk

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 299
RE: M60 vs Pelton - 2/16/2012 12:10:49 PM   
DoktorRainbow


Posts: 29
Joined: 4/29/2011
Status: offline
To my amateur eyes this breakthrough looks like the definite final finishing off move against the Soviets. Poor Stalin. :p

< Message edited by DoktorRainbow -- 2/16/2012 12:12:54 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 300
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