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Week 17 - 11/8/2011 5:56:13 AM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Week 17 9.10.41

A crisis of undescribable proportions is underway as the Germans launch massive attacks north and south of Moscow and isolate the capital. Soviet units find no enemy elements east and northeast of the capital, and open the pocket but all rail lines into and out of Moscow are wrecked.

STAVKA must now find a solution to the situation without delay. The fate of Moscow and over 1 million Soviet soldiers now hangs in the balance as the Wehrmacht is positioned to seal the pocket in the coming weeks. The weather is about to slow movement drastically, and with it any potential evacuation east.

Starting situation


Current situation with the pocket broken

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Post #: 61
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 3:31:56 PM   
Flaviusx


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Yes, I've been trying to say this for a while: Moscow is quite doable now. Pelton's obsession with chasing factories has up to this point resulted in him not trying, but now he has.

Regardless of the factory evacuation the Germans should absolutely go for Moscow and throttle the Red Army in the process. They have the ability logistically to fight there for most of the summer. He got a late start here; in my game with James I was forced to defend the place for a good 10 clear turns and only narrowly averted it getting surrounded prior to mud.





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Post #: 62
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 4:24:49 PM   
Richard III

 

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This was very surprising to see just before T 18 .

It looks like he cracked the lines in the NE and SE, and slipped a HQ Buildup/Air Supplied motorized Div. or two in to wreck the RR, then_withdrew them_ ??, leaving a soft ZOC behind and isolating the city. If that`s the deal here, it`s pretty gamey...

IMHO, This ACW Jeb Stuart Cav. type tactic, "ride around the Army " just doesn`t feel right in the vast spaces in Russia in 1941, over major rivers and dreadful terrian, useing mech forces at the end of a tenuious supply line.....

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Post #: 63
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 4:36:35 PM   
krupp_88mm


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i agree its somewhat gamey, there are two reasons it is gamey and not historical in my opinion,the first and most important is the week long reaction phase, irl the russians would have responded to a break through in a day or more not a week and could have stopped the unopposed joyride. To fix this problem would be somewhat easy, but maybe difficult to program, units whith high to moderate "logistics points" can be set to have reserve status radius, ie you can place them in reserve status and they will react to any break through in their territory or attacks within a certain radius, they may even break a part and send one regiment at a time to the break through areas depending on how large / small the enemy threat is. But to be put in active reserve status you would have to spend logistic points on them logistic points i previously loosely imagined as such
:
Here is what i would like to see personally i would like to scrap in name at least the whole political points system, in its place or at least replacing part of its duty, would be logistics points... logistics points reflect what is possible to transport to the front line, what is possible to get leaders to coordinate make a plan and act on it in unison, to communicate with the vast support array that needs to support you to make sure all the gears of war are in their proper place.

If the German high command just rings up a corps out of the blue that has been sitting on the front line for weeks holding ground, while supplies and material and command are busy elsewhere, and tells them attack!!! They should be able to, but their attack is going to be much weaker than it could have been if they had planned or gotten logistics support

I would like to see each side get logistics points based on several factors including who the leaders are, the capacity of supply in their area, the amount of fuel in reserve. also just because you have the weapons ammo equipment armaments men and materiel and steel and oil... doesn't mean its being used effectively, often its held in a confusing system of bureaucracy difficult to procure and somehow never ends up at the time or place its actually needed.

This is where logistics points come in to play. Lets say you can do things to get more logistics points like retire corps back home when they are due to return or even earlier if you want. Or yo could keep a unit that was supposed to return at the expense of logistics points. Each unit would get a set of native logistics points each turn based on factors like foraging supply, if their in a city, leaders morale fatigue weather ect,. but yuo can also sped your logistics points on corps or army commands to enhance the supply movement and combat power of the units under their command, this would primarily effect attacking power, although it can definitely also increase defense power as well, but it has greater weight to the attack because you need those supplies and support to advance, defending is alot easier without hug support.

You could add some special things like units around hero areas say Stalingrad Moscow Leningrad gain a bonus to their native logistics this would be due to the close proximity of their huge cities and also the transportation networks near such cities and finally the leaders really lighting a fire under their buts when a city is under threat.
this could actually add some real strategic value to cities if the controller is granted some minimum logistics bonus in certain radius for controlling them.

I mean really common, conscripts and tank factories arnt the only thing that contributed to the war, the transportation networks the resources of the local populace, the morale boost a lonely soldier gets when he sees thousands of young girls cheering him on and throwing mementos. Also the leadership tended to consolidate around these cites due to aforementioned reasons. the war effort goes deeper than steel and blood.

Other things you could add bombing strategic cities, maybe it removes part of their logistics bonus (for both sides) but maybe also over time increases a cities defense value. Each city might have a logistics bonus separate for each side. And this could extend to smaller cities but at a reduced affect of course.

One problem with this system is it seems a player can bank and then spend all their logistics quickly to affect a break through. i propose taht logistics points have a soft cap where beyond that point you receive a less percentage whatever it may be. Also that to send support points to the front line you must do so through army / corps headquarters. and to gain the full compliment of logistics poitns it will take several turns, the more they have the more effective. In this matter you have to start planing your offensives ahead of time and see how long you want to wait before the attack. It also means you can launch attack with a small contingent of units / divisions that have been given adequate support and prepared for an attack for months. It might appear to be a quiet sector of the front but suddenly the opposing divisions attack with a large support behind them, leaders guiding the way, plans and maps they are executing in unison, and reinforcements already detailed to replace losses, and already have corps and army support assets at the ready for attack, and also a map of enemy positions, and prepared coordination between army and airforce to increase the effect and support of aerial assets.

Of course measures should be placed to detect these buildups, the existing recon could be tweaked to have a chance to notice a buildup, not sure what the chances would be.. also the longer a buildup goes on for the greater the chance that the enemy might get a report of it, so units being built up for a long time could randomly receive a higher detection rating.

of course logistics have nothing really to do with replacing leaders of course the leaders would though affect the logistics. Like wise a defender must decide where he wants to leave parts of the front unprepared for major defense or counter attack, and where he wants to be prepared. Also logistic buildups should reduce the effectiveness of defending forts accordingly, this is taking into account the maps artillery support and heavy assets at their disposal as well as the air sport to attack entrenched positions, and mineclearing equipment and plans of attack.

A good example of what im talking about might be kursk the Germans planned and planned for a long time and kept planning more. And they were indeed incredibly prepared for the attack it was a ferocious attack. The problem is the build up went on so long the soviets realized and sent all their available support to that area as well. Building forces laying mines digging in tank traps holes you name it.

Also for the defender increased logistics could increase fort construction time and reduce degradation in a corps are with support, this reflects the mines and other support hes getting from higher levels, preplanning artillery firing points, getting advice form more experienced advisers how to prepare, and maybe even getting priority for newer weapons or more of them ect and additional support staff and units ect. and increased coordination with higher echelons of command means a defending unit with high logistics is more likely to receive enforcements form an adjacent unit during battle, due to increased command and control.
:
e
In this method each turn the defender would have to spend logistics points to keep his reactionary reserves fueled and ready to respond to threats, or break throughs ect, if he could not afford the logistics points then his units would be left vulnerable to encirclement.

I also imagine logistics points as being needed to create units, although there are two challenges to this, if you spend too much logistics trying to grow your army, it will be unwieldy large and inefficient, if you spend to many logistics on preparing your front line troops for combat operations than you may run short of new divisions ect.

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 11/8/2011 4:40:14 PM >


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Post #: 64
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 4:53:37 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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This is precisely the one kind of maneuvers that got me to draft Reaction rules for WitE. If you don't go checkerboard - and it's not an insurance policy by any means - then you get this done on you quite often.

PS: Pelton got chicken with this, more since it is Turn 17. I don't think you would have been able to crush his Motorized units in the mud, even isolated. CV gets divided by 8, yes, but that would mean your units would have initial CV's or 2 or 3 at best, while his would be on the 10's or 20's. It would have been a huge victory.

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 11/8/2011 4:57:11 PM >


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Post #: 65
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 5:50:25 PM   
heliodorus04


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I object to describing railroad raiding as gamey. The railroad network is your supply lifeline and warfare will always focus on disrupting supply lines. I have found that many Soviet players forget to pay attention to their railroad chokepoints.  It would not have taken much force to conserve those chokes, but it appears you wanted to contest every hex west of Moscow, leaving Pelton to stretch around the north and southeast. He caught you over-focused on the western approach.

On the bright side, you can probably have most of that railroad repaired by the infinite RR Construction Brigades that Soviet players create in every army.



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Post #: 66
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 5:53:00 PM   
Flaviusx


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The only reason it is a raid is because it's turn 17. The Germans ran out of time here. That's why you need to start pushing on Moscow earlier.

If he had even one more turn of clear weather this raid could have turned into something far worse. And it may still do so with snow.

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Post #: 67
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 6:13:33 PM   
Q-Ball


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It's very tough to anticipate all the breakthroughs as Soviets, and I will say that Tarhunnas did almost the exact same thing against me, from the same approaches. He did is Turn 13 though, and I didn't have as many guys in the pocket, but it was a big disaster. I ended up losing all factories in the whole of Moscow, with no evacs, and about 20 divisions. Not good, but you can recover.

Looking at the screenshots, you can see where you were vulnerable. He had to get 6 hexes, with the highest defensive CV being 11. All of those stacks are within MP range of infantry that can launch Deliberate attacks. Tank Brigades are just 3 MP speedbumps.

I am surprised though you didn't pull back out of that bulge. He isn't going to attack the sides, no reason you couldn't pull 20-30 units back and flood the zone he just cleared with Rifle units. I initially had 50-60 divisions surrounded vs. Tarhunnas, but whittled it down by flooding that zone, and he was trying to keep the pocket shut for 3-4 turns. Insisting on holding the western most part of the bulge is probably one reason it was such a potential disaster. You had too much strength in the wrong spots.

Unless you fix your disposition, the same thing can happen you again, IMO.









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Post #: 68
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 6:23:50 PM   
Flaviusx


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Q-ball, I would hold the western end of the bulge with single units, myself, just to stretch out the Germans. If you completely abandon the salient, this releases a lot of landsers, and thus frees up the mobile units to get in behind Moscow.

If they get cut off and swallowed during the snow, that's ok -- the Germans are moving in the wrong direction.

Sometimes salients can be useful.

However, you are right that he's got too much strength deployed in the bulge for this limited purpose and should instead redeploy towards the shoulders.

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Post #: 69
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 7:53:20 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Good feedback everyone.  I particularly agree that Moscow is a more difficult defense under 1.0.5. 

When I first saw the save, ZOC control wasn't on and I thought I had dodged a bullet.  Then I checked the events log and saw half the Red Army isolated.  You can imagine the level of joy at seeing that.  Well, gamey or not, no denying Pelton knows his stuff. Fortunately so do I.  What you see is still in mid-turn.  Some units but not all are moving east for the very reason flavuisx mentions.

To matters at hand, I see the following as priorities.

1.  Repair the 5 damaged rail line hexes due east.  If I understand, by putting a HQ with RR Construction Brigades on the damaged hexes, they will get priority at being fixed?  Does that mean I can expect the rail to be repaired on turn 19, providing I can hold the bad guys off and have the HQs sitting on the rail hexes this turn?

2.  Slowly withdraw the Moscow contingent east.  I can't get everyone through the gap obviously, there's just too much out there.  So at least for turn 18 I plan to hold the westernmost part of the line basically along the Nara.

3.  Bring reinforcements in by rail from the east to bolster what at this point is very little in his direct path.  While it is next to impossible to get anything out by rail at this point, I can definitely rail units right up to the hexes he flipped.  Despite this latest incident, Soviet manpower vs. Axis is higher than at any point so far. 

4.  Defend in the mud.  This is the decisive element and question basically that will determine how much escaped this potential megapocket.  How successful will he be in attacking if I throw a couple 10k rifle divisions in his path as I try to buy time for the RR repair crews?  Right now his pincers are 8 hexes from coming together.

5.  Once the rail is repaired, assuming the rest can be done, balance out evacs of what Moscow factories need to come out along with troops.

6.  Look at what it would take to supply the Moscow hexes by air for three snow weeks.  This assumes I will leave the capital behind with the main armies to the east, but the capital stays fully garrisoned. 

7.  What forces to deploy to either relieve the troops at Moscow or recapture the city (hopefully the former).  The German troops in the area will likely have had little to no opportunity to dig in at start of blizzard.  I could hold onto Ryazan from where I can try to launch spoiling attacks.

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Post #: 70
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 8:31:09 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Latest OOB. German panzer forces staying under 1000 operational. This could mean a productive blizzard coming.


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Post #: 71
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 8:47:11 PM   
gingerbread


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v1.00 – November 26, 2010 Initial Release Rules Addendum

4. Section 14.2.2.1 - Prior to December 1941, Soviet rail repair units will not
automatically move to rebuild damaged rail lines that are within 5 hexes of an enemy
unit.

No rail repair!

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Post #: 72
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 9:03:31 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gingerbread

v1.00 – November 26, 2010 Initial Release Rules Addendum

4. Section 14.2.2.1 - Prior to December 1941, Soviet rail repair units will not
automatically move to rebuild damaged rail lines that are within 5 hexes of an enemy
unit.

No rail repair!



I suppose it would be too much to hope that if they were on the damaged hex to begin with, they wouldn't technically have to move.

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Post #: 73
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 9:28:35 PM   
gingerbread


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By all means get an HQ set up with RR brigades, two or more if you can. The Germans that are over the Oka will quite possibly be isolated during mud, so Pelton might not stay.

The guys in 106,54 can possibly make his supply line even longer. An attack westwards from Ryazan might make him give up som hexes since he would think he can take them back during snow.



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Post #: 74
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 9:57:33 PM   
TulliusDetritus


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Gamey? This is one of the most beautiful pockets I have ever seen. It is even aesthetic! And I hope for you M60A3TTS you stop Pelton from a) grabbing Moscow and b) capturing those many hordes.

As for Pelton's move: respect

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Post #: 75
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 10:31:16 PM   
Ketza


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My first look at the overall pocket is that it is a huge risk on his part so close to mud.

Its also "fixes" the front here making it easy for the Soviet to react and pile on the the panzer spearheads.

I see lots of opportunity for the Soviet here.

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Post #: 76
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 11:02:17 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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I would be among the first to echo TD's opinion that Pelton deserves great respect as a player. As I said, he knows his stuff. Others are free to voice opinions on the other things (and plenty of opportunities to do so in his other threads).

Interesting side note, since so many units were cut off, the ones outside the pocket which I had set to refit got nice troop bumps.

So gingerbread is right on, RR repair at 5 or less hexes from the fascists is out, even if 5th Guards Tank Army is sitting in the same hex. Must be union rules or something. Darn Addendums

This is why it's helpful to post this stuff. Thanks g-man. With my carefully laid plans thwarted, I will have to depend on getting to as many of the few remaining intact railhead hexes. Of course this also means no more industry is leaving Moscow in the near future. There are still 7 arms there if anyone is wondering.

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Post #: 77
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 11:16:39 PM   
gingerbread


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There are 4 hexes that you need to clear in order to allow rail repair on just three hexes.

Do a mouse over on his hexes - what is the reported 'Off Rail MP:' for them? If it's in the 30:s there is no way that they will be in supply during mud.

Time for revenge!




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Post #: 78
RE: Week 17 - 11/8/2011 11:18:40 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

My first look at the overall pocket is that it is a huge risk on his part so close to mud.

Its also "fixes" the front here making it easy for the Soviet to react and pile on the the panzer spearheads.

I see lots of opportunity for the Soviet here.


There is a good chance, M60, that the mobile units over the Oka in the south will be isolated during mud. Through ZOCs and over a major river....that's a ton of MPs. If they are isolated, I would attack them, regardless of Odds. They will eventually run out of ammo and crumble.

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Post #: 79
RE: Week 17 - 11/9/2011 12:16:19 AM   
sath

 

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Not to ask a silly question, why didn't pelton leave some units in the area to contain the pocket.

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RE: Week 17 - 11/9/2011 12:24:42 AM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Here is the data requested on the lead units and other mobile formations in the area.
I'm interested on what you see here. Pelton made airdrops to both enemy-held hexes north of the Oka.



< Message edited by M60A3TTS -- 11/9/2011 12:57:23 AM >

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Post #: 81
RE: Week 17 - 11/9/2011 12:44:01 AM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Here is another shot after Air Recon showing Axis Rail (AR) and Axis Rail Damage (ARD) along with a pair of his FBD units.


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RE: Week 17 - 11/9/2011 12:59:20 AM   
gingerbread


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Hm, Peltons rail head is closer than I thought. The units north of OKA will start isolated (every hex +4 MP in mud) so they should become yours without to much trouble, but the two hexes in Y=50 will be in range unless ZOC:ed. They will not get more than 10-15% supply as is. You need one of 114,51 or 114,52. At least occupy 115,52 since/while it is still yours.

Afraid I don't see anything obvious that will be know as The Miracle of Moscow in the annals.

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Post #: 83
RE: Week 17 - 11/9/2011 1:15:57 AM   
TulliusDetritus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Here is the data requested on the lead units and other mobile formations in the area.
I'm interested on what you see here.


I see enemy units that should hold any attack (right now) But if this is non-random weather, he will not be closing the pocket until the end of mud (turn 21 or 22?). I mean, to do that he should attack the units that you will certainly put in his path: offensive CV: 1/8. But after that? He has snow turns before the blizzard. That's when he really should strike. And he will. He has certainly smelled the blood in the water. So you still have some turns to find a solution. Harsh choices.

Good luck

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Week 18 - 11/9/2011 6:41:22 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Week 18

Brief update:  The Axis forces around Moscow made no real attempt to advance in mud this week, so the evacuation of the pocket is underway.  One more panzer division crossed over the Oka in the south.  I was surprised to see in fact, a RR brigade east of Moscow did come out and work on a hex within 5 of the nearest enemy unit.  That's not to say the entire line to Moscow will be repaired before snow, but it is a step in the right direction.  For now it is a matter of reorganizing what comes out of the pocket and work to reform Kalinin, Western and Bryansk fronts further east.

One admin note, two rifle divisions earned guards status this week, bringing the total to three.  One small step towards the Red Army:  The Next Generation.

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Post #: 85
RE: Week 17 - 11/10/2011 11:03:33 AM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

I would be among the first to echo TD's opinion that Pelton deserves great respect as a player. As I said, he knows his stuff. Others are free to voice opinions on the other things (and plenty of opportunities to do so in his other threads).



I didn't want to sound as accusing anyone and crapping on your thread, M60. My apologies if I sounded like that.

But that works so well just because it is an artifact of game mechanics. Helio says it's about garrisoning the railroads... yes, but what units does have the Red Army to stop that? Even if M60 had a checkerboard with units supporting each other mutually through Reserve, that probably wouldn't have stopped Pelton, from turning over hex ownership and retreating to a safer position. All he needs is to rely on Hasty attacks: though the mutually supporting Reserve deployment can make that quite dangerous for him, this requires reserving your best units rather than holding the line and investing significant amounts of AP's in leaders and C&C optimization.

If the Red Army had motorized units with the morale of early war German motorized units, this could be used by both sides. I wonder how people would feel when this is done to them, just like that, with a snap of your opponent fingers.

My advice would be to strengthen your flanks and capitalize the fact that Reserve commitment to Heavy Urban hexes is almost automatic. I doubt Pelton will carry on a major operation if he appraises the option as anti-economic. So just deploy things to make it look like that (i.e. he's forced to make a frontal assault on Moscow if he wants it).

< Message edited by Bletchley_Geek -- 11/10/2011 4:19:19 PM >


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Post #: 86
RE: Week 17 - 11/10/2011 5:39:47 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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Naturally I want to put up a fight for Moscow, but at the same time, I don't want to risk getting trapped in a huge pocket in the act of doing so.  It's probably fair to say a quarter of the entire army is in the immediate area of a potential pocket.  I don't know if this will be the seed of a Moscow Miracle, but the latest patch apparently decimated Pelton's Level2 forts on his winter line.  I know he's got a thread going looking for some explanation but I question whether he'll get far on that.  He's already expressing concerns of continuing in Kamil's game. 

Bottom line is, he just got more vulnerable to the coming blizzard offensive and it will be interesting to see if that has any impact on his plans to launch an all out attack to take Moscow. 

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Post #: 87
RE: Week 17 - 11/10/2011 5:51:19 PM   
Bletchley_Geek


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quote:

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS
Bottom line is, he just got more vulnerable to the coming blizzard offensive and it will be interesting to see if that has any impact on his plans to launch an all out attack to take Moscow. 


It might sound weird, but perhaps it would be best for your interests to lure him into giving the Go! order to his units.

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(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 88
Axis dispositions south of Moscow - 11/13/2011 4:54:56 PM   
M60A3TTS

 

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While we wait for the next patch, this is from the end of week 17 and shows the dispositions of Axis forces south of the Moscow area. You can see that at the same time Pelton is going for Moscow, he is also committing his armor in the south to isolate and take Rostov.


(in reply to Bletchley_Geek)
Post #: 89
RE: Axis dispositions south of Moscow - 11/14/2011 4:23:44 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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Hang in there M60.... If you can get a lot of that army out of the bulge I think you will be OK. I think the last several turns before the blizzard starts are the most stressful.

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(in reply to M60A3TTS)
Post #: 90
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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East Series >> After Action Reports >> Week 17 Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
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