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OT - Baseball question - 10/1/2011 7:31:47 PM   
Orm


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I am in the proccess to rekindle my interest in Baseball. During the years I've seen sport movies about baseball and played baseball computer games but to my shame I have never had the opportunity to watch baseball live.

Now that Red Prince has awoken my interest in baseball I wonder what your thoughts are on the Designated Hitter. I am struggling a bit with the DH rule. Maybe it has more to do with the fact that the American League and the National League have different rules on this.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/1/2011 8:45:35 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

I am in the proccess to rekindle my interest in Baseball. During the years I've seen sport movies about baseball and played baseball computer games but to my shame I have never had the opportunity to watch baseball live.

Now that Red Prince has awoken my interest in baseball I wonder what your thoughts are on the Designated Hitter. I am struggling a bit with the DH rule. Maybe it has more to do with the fact that the American League and the National League have different rules on this.

The National League uses an older set of rules than the American League. That change happened 25-30 years ago. As an ardent NL fan, I detest the DH rule. For me one of the charms of baseball is that a player has to particiapte in both offense and defense. The DH splits that so one player on each team is not required to field and another is not required to bat.

The result is that there are more runs scored when using the DH rule. Basically you take the worse hitting player out of the lineup and insert someone who is an exceptional hitter. Overall, this results in a stronger hitting team. The concept can be applied to any team sport: remove the worst player and insert one of the best - which will improve the team tremendously.

On the pitching side, not requiring the pitcher to bat doesn't improve the defense noticably. Both leagues are pretty much the same in bringing in relief pitchers once the starter gets in trouble for one reason or another. So the effect of the pitcher getting to sit in the dugout whenever his his team is batting doesn't really improve his performance as a pitcher. On rare occasions in the NL a pitcher will get tired or injured while batting or running the bases, but that is so unusual that I can not think of any instances off the top of my head. The pitchers are much more likely to get hurt while fielding their position - or (most often) in the act of pitching.

Steve

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/2/2011 12:59:28 AM   
Taxman66


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Pitchers also tend to go longer in the AL, the only time they come out is when they tire or otherwise start to struggle. In the NL, the team that is behind often times will pinch hit for the pitcher, thus removing him from the game, even if the pitcher is doing well. I think NL games tend (or at seem) to take longer as there are more pitching changes.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/2/2011 1:36:37 AM   
SewerStarFish


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I disagree with Taxman66

In reality, American League teams carry more pitchers than National League teams(teams are generally limited to 25 players per game). As National League teams need to pinch hit for pitchers and American League teams don't, AL teams can afford to carry more pitchers and thus use their relievers with less frequency. While both leagues have managers that happily run through their bullpens nightly -- the AL games can have more pitching changes not because the pitchers are tired but because the managers feel the need to play the statistics of left handed pitcher doing better against left handed batters and vise versa. So if the game is close late, AL games really slow down.

While I love my AL favorite team, I think the NL version of baseball is far more interesting.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/2/2011 3:02:13 AM   
Red Prince


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Just another note on length-of-game: the additional scoring in the AL also tends to make for longer games. I remember there was a study done in the mid-1990s on this. Mostly it was an attempt to force the umpires to enforce rules that would shorten games, but it did show AL games averaging longer than NL games.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/2/2011 3:59:46 AM   
Quibbles

 

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The DH rule was put into place in the American League in 1973, under the pretense of making games more exciting by not letting pitchers bat (since they tend to be so poor at it). In reality, it was the player's union that backed it because it keeps older players in the game longer, since they don't have to play the field, which is far more physical than just swinging the bat. So it's doubtful the rule will ever get removed. Personally I think baseball should be played by a team of 9 players, as originally intended, not 10. If a player can't cut it in the field, then he shouldn't be playing. Just my two cents.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/2/2011 5:57:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quibbles

The DH rule was put into place in the American League in 1973, under the pretense of making games more exciting by not letting pitchers bat (since they tend to be so poor at it). In reality, it was the player's union that backed it because it keeps older players in the game longer, since they don't have to play the field, which is far more physical than just swinging the bat. So it's doubtful the rule will ever get removed. Personally I think baseball should be played by a team of 9 players, as originally intended, not 10. If a player can't cut it in the field, then he shouldn't be playing. Just my two cents.


Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for the date precision - you can tell I only pay attention to the National League.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/3/2011 4:04:31 AM   
borner


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The DH takes a lot of the strategy out of the game. In the AL you never have to decide to pull the pitcher to try and get a hitter to the plate. I agree with Quibbles -  the DH is here to stay as it provides high dollar roster spots to older power hitters that cannot play the outfield any longer.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/3/2011 4:18:41 PM   
troop76

 

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To tie this back in....

What rule in WiF creates as much division as the DH does in baseball? Blitz bonus? ITPOTE? Divisions? SiF?....

discuss..

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/3/2011 5:42:25 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: troop76

To tie this back in....

What rule in WiF creates as much division as the DH does in baseball? Blitz bonus? ITPOTE? Divisions? SiF?....

discuss..

From a coding perspective, I would have to go with either 2D10 or Carrier air units for the sheer amount of code.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/3/2011 6:35:37 PM   
paulderynck


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quote:

ORIGINAL: troop76

To tie this back in....

What rule in WiF creates as much division as the DH does in baseball? Blitz bonus? ITPOTE? Divisions? SiF?....

discuss..

ITPOTE for most controversial in terms of well understood but polarized as to use/don't use.

Multiple States of War for least understood and capable of creating utterly bizarre sets of circumstances.

Edit: Can we be accused of going O.T. in a thread that's O.T.?

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 10/3/2011 6:36:30 PM >


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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/3/2011 7:11:38 PM   
Cheesehead

 

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Welcome to the forum

Bringing this discussion back to board games... if you are interested in baseball as a hobby you may want to consider the buying the best baseball board game of all time, Strat-o-matic. It has been ported to the computer to ease stat keeping and such, but it has retained the feel of the board game with dice rolling and the player cards which allow you to see exactly how a result was obtained.

With SOM BB you can replay seasons, replay fantasy seasons with a fantasy-style draft, or replay a season with your own tweaks, trades, etc to follow up any "what-if?" scenarios you can think of.

I thought I'd plug the game here as you must be a board game fan...

cheers

John

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/3/2011 9:15:48 PM   
Orm


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Thank you, John. I will look it up.

At the moment, however, I am short on time for a new game. MWIF gets what time I have over.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/3/2011 9:34:02 PM   
Orm


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Does the fact that there is a difference in the DH rule increase the home field advantage in the World Series?

And if it is an extra advantage to the home team is there an difference in that advantage for teams from the American League or the National League?

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/3/2011 10:51:19 PM   
Quibbles

 

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Thanks for the welcomes. I've been a lurker here for about a year. Odd that my first post would be on baseball! lol.

Generally, the DH rule does increase home field advantage in the World Series (and in regular season inter-league play). An American League team is at a big disadvantage in a National League park because the pitchers have to bat, and the American League team loses its DH, which can sometimes be a potent hitter. On the other hand, a National League team I don't think suffers nearly as much in an American League park, where they can substitute their best bench hitter for their pitcher. Granted usually their best bench hitter isn't as good as the American League team's DH, so slight advantage to the American League team.

And SOM BB is a good game, but I prefer Diamond Mind.

WiF question: What does ITPOTE stand for?

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/3/2011 11:11:48 PM   
Klydon


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I played both SOM BB and a game called Pursue the Pennant. PtP was the far superior game. In PtP, depending on what got rolled when, Vince Coleman could have been injured by the tarp machine as he actually was. Birds being hit by batted balls and even pitchers is possible. Very much enjoyed our leagues back in the day.

Most of the baseball writers reflect the feelings of most fans in regards to the DH. Paul Molitor is probably the closest player that is in the hall of fame that spent significant time at DH. I don't recall other players that primarily known as DH's ever getting into the hall although perhaps Thome may stand a chance.

I don't like the DH either, but it isn't going away unfortunately.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/4/2011 12:01:48 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quibbles

Thanks for the welcomes. I've been a lurker here for about a year. Odd that my first post would be on baseball! lol.

Generally, the DH rule does increase home field advantage in the World Series (and in regular season inter-league play). An American League team is at a big disadvantage in a National League park because the pitchers have to bat, and the American League team loses its DH, which can sometimes be a potent hitter. On the other hand, a National League team I don't think suffers nearly as much in an American League park, where they can substitute their best bench hitter for their pitcher. Granted usually their best bench hitter isn't as good as the American League team's DH, so slight advantage to the American League team.

And SOM BB is a good game, but I prefer Diamond Mind.

WiF question: What does ITPOTE stand for?

In the presence of the enemy. It adds 1 MP cost to enter a sea area where the enemy might intercept you - but there are a lot of details, as implied by Paul's post.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/4/2011 12:09:57 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quibbles

Thanks for the welcomes. I've been a lurker here for about a year. Odd that my first post would be on baseball! lol.

Generally, the DH rule does increase home field advantage in the World Series (and in regular season inter-league play). An American League team is at a big disadvantage in a National League park because the pitchers have to bat, and the American League team loses its DH, which can sometimes be a potent hitter. On the other hand, a National League team I don't think suffers nearly as much in an American League park, where they can substitute their best bench hitter for their pitcher. Granted usually their best bench hitter isn't as good as the American League team's DH, so slight advantage to the American League team.

And SOM BB is a good game, but I prefer Diamond Mind.

WiF question: What does ITPOTE stand for?

Most National League teams don't have a player comparable to a DH on their bench. Pinch hitters and platoon players (one right handed and one left handed share playing a position) come the closest. But neither of those are really comparable. Most pinch hitters get to bat once or twice a game, if at all. They usually are capable of fielding a position too.

The easiest way to analyze this is to just reverse the logic:
An American League team is at (has) a big (advantage) disadvantage in (an American) a National League park because the pitchers (do not) have to bat, and the American League team (does not lose) loses its DH, which can sometimes be a potent hitter. And so on.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/4/2011 5:00:39 AM   
Quibbles

 

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Klydon, Diamond Mind is the computer version of PtP. I have one of the original 500 inaugural games of PtP lying around here somewhere from 1986? 87?. I *loved* that game. The original game had these big cards where you could put the actual Topps baseball card of the player on the top. *sigh* Those were the days.

Now I've turned in my cleats for army boots!

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/4/2011 1:29:54 PM   
Mundy


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As a Brewer fan, I'm happy that this may just be our year.

I'm also happy they went to the NL for all the reasons above.

Ed-

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/4/2011 6:54:52 PM   
Centuur


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I don't know anything about Baseball, but apparently there is a Championship going one with the Dutch national team in it... They trashed the Greeks yesterday with 15 to zero, according to the Sportnewsitems on TV here...
Now, if this item was about soccer, things would be reversed obviously... Other parts of the world means other sports...




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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/7/2011 3:53:08 PM   
Edfactor


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NL rules (w/o the DH) is real baseball, where everyone has to be able to play. the DH allows old guys that cant play to collect 500 home runs or 3000 hits and reduces the value that those milestones hold.

I hate the DH, I guess that is why God stuck me in an AL town, GO RANGERS !


edit
Oh I think there are more pitching changes within an inning in AL games, NL games they tend to pull the pitcher for a pinch hitter and then do a double switch.

In the world series I think the homefield advantage is slightly increased for both sides, perhaps the NL comes out a little better because their pitchers do get to take at bats during games, but there isnt much difference between a guy batting .050 and one batting .125 On the flip side the NL team gets to add their best bat to the lineup as a DH but that bat usually isnt nearly as good as an AL DH is.

edit2
Computer baseball, all I've seen or played is Diamond Mind's vaseball game.

< Message edited by Edfactor -- 10/7/2011 6:08:33 PM >

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/16/2011 12:15:05 PM   
Centuur


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For the first time ever, a baseball game got a live transmission on Dutch TV... In the Final of the World Cup the Dutch defeated the Cubans... The Worldchampionship is ours... We beat the Cubans twice in the tournament. By the way: the USA also got beaten by the Dutch team...


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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/16/2011 6:59:25 PM   
Extraneous

 

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who's on first?

This whole thread is

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/16/2011 8:37:21 PM   
Centuur


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Sure, and that's why it states OT...

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/17/2011 3:41:46 AM   
SewerStarFish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
who's on first?
This whole thread is


It was because of World War II that the ubiquitous US presence in so many foreign lands that baseball was even introduced to so many of the nations that play it. So it's a distant cousin of on topic in a very off topic way.

< Message edited by SewerStarFish -- 10/17/2011 3:43:16 AM >

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 10/17/2011 8:27:45 PM   
Extraneous

 

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Oh I thoght it ment "Over Time".

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 6/14/2012 8:30:07 AM   
Orm


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Congratulations to Matt Cain and San Francisco Giants to their first perfect game.

125 pitches! Awesome!

Anyone had the good fortune to watch the game? But I suppose that the Houston fans are not all that happy.

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RE: OT - Baseball question - 6/15/2012 11:35:54 PM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

For the first time ever, a baseball game got a live transmission on Dutch TV... In the Final of the World Cup the Dutch defeated the Cubans... The Worldchampionship is ours... We beat the Cubans twice in the tournament. By the way: the USA also got beaten by the Dutch team...


Not posting Euro2012 results

Someone comments about WW2 taking Baseball to the world, It s was spread much earlier than that.

I know both Japan and Australia were playing baseball around 1900.

Only some wiki quotes from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_baseball_outside_the_United_States

Recorded instances of baseball played outside North America came in 1874, when a party comprising members of the Boston and Philadelphia clubs toured England both playing cricket and demonstrating baseball. A further tour, by the Chicago club with the addition of various All-Stars in the winter of 1888–89, took the game to Hawaii, Australia, New Zealand and the south Pacific Islands. Returning via Europe and North Africa they played more demonstration games, including one in front of the Sphinx in Egypt.

The first World Cup (or World Championships) in baseball were held in 1938, as teams from the United States and United Kingdom played a series of five games. Britain won four and became the first baseball World Champion. After this championship, the IBF was founded (see above). World Cups have been played at irregular intervals ever since; the 36th took place in the Netherlands in September 2005. Until 1996 professional players were not allowed to participate in the World Cups; since then major league players generally have not participated because the tournaments have conflicted with regular season games.


Sometimes, baseball matches played during the Louisiana Purchase Exposition in St. Louis in 1904 are listed as demonstrations at the Olympic Games held in the same year. However, most historians do not regard them like this; actually any sports competition held in St. Louis has received a predicate 'Olympic'.

The first real Olympic appearance of baseball is in 1912, as a team from Västerås played against competitors from the U.S. track and field team at the Olympic Games in Stockholm, Sweden. The United States beat the Swedish team, which played with some Americans borrowed from the opponent, 13–3. A second game was played later, which included decathlon star Jim Thorpe as a right fielder. USA won again, 6–3.

Baseball also made an appearance at the 1924 Summer Olympics in Paris, American players facing a French team (the Ranelagh Club) in an exhibition game. The game lasted only four innings due to poor field conditions, the Americans leading 5-0 at the time.[1][2] The American media was quick to claim a victory both for the American team and for baseball as a sport.[3][4]

For the 1936 Olympics, the German hosts had invited the United States to play a demonstration match against Japan. As Japan withdrew, the US sent two 'all-star' teams, named the 'World Champions' and the 'U.S. Olympics'. For a layman crowd of 90,000 (sometimes reported as 125,000), the World Champions won 6–5.

There were plans for including baseball at the 1940 Olympics originally scheduled for Japan, but these plans were abandoned after Japan had to withdraw its bid because of its war in Manchuria.


< Message edited by JeffK -- 6/15/2012 11:52:01 PM >


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RE: OT - Baseball question - 6/19/2012 11:02:14 PM   
Edfactor


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The DH, sucks - it's not real baseball.

The DH removes some of the strategy in the ballgame. (I wonder how many AL managers even know what a double switch is?)

A pitcher that can hit is an asset in real baseball, with the DH not so much.

The DH allows batters that cannot play the game to hang on and get milestones that they could not achieve if they had to actually field a position. The ones that this is not true for would in other circumstances be stuck at first base or perhaps LF/RF.


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