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Bullwinkle, where art thou?

 
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Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 5:26:49 PM   
Canoerebel


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Have any of you gents noticed that Bullwinkle has become rather scarce around these parts? I did see him on the forums last week some time, but he's not nearly as ubiquitous as he used to be. The guy goes and gets married and then forgets about the most important commitments in life (the Forum)? I don't think we should let him get away with this. As punishment, I suggest that he read GreyJoy's AAR paying especial attention to the "hairless wonder" and "master of the bushes" comments.
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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 5:31:31 PM   
Alfred

 

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He is still reading the forum. Just not that interested in participating in the low quality of "debate" which is found too commonly on the forum. In particular there is too much of a superiority attitiude exhibited by PBEM players against those who avowedly play against the AI.

Alfred

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 5:36:52 PM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

He is still reading the forum. Just not that interested in participating in the low quality of "debate" which is found too commonly on the forum. In particular there is too much of a superiority attitiude exhibited by PBEM players against those who avowedly play against the AI.

Alfred


All hail the one known as Andy Mac.

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 5:37:26 PM   
Canoerebel


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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 5:48:32 PM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel




The game has always been split even back in the WITP days of PBEM players vs AI players.

In WITP I never played in PBEM and I seen enough hostility from some players (not a clue why, its not like there is a tournament rating)

However, I do believe PBEM players get frustrated (as I do) when someone that only played the AI tries to give out strategy, but failed to try PBEM style of play.
This is mainly why I haven't done an AAR, only did one and it was constant annoyance from AI players trying to "help".


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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 6:01:00 PM   
jeffk3510


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I would agree with this.

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 6:12:07 PM   
Schanilec

 

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I don't have internet at home. So I would humbly disagree. Though I don't hand out strategy advise, just mechanics of the game when I feel able.

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 6:29:45 PM   
Canoerebel


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To be honest, this sounds like much ado about nothing.  If your skivvies are in a wad, then unwad them.  If you have a mad place, then scratch it and get glad.  My experience shows this to be a large, vibrant, good natured community.  There are occasional exceptions and outbursts, but those are exceptions.

P.S.  The aforementioned opinion is not directed at Bullwinkle, but rather at the notion that some folks get irritated by various things.  I just want Bullwinkle back and active so that we can harrass him about:  (a) being a Yankee and (b) getting married when he could have sat around into perpetuity drinking adult beverages, playing the game, and scratching his "naturally hairy" belly.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/21/2011 6:31:04 PM >

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 6:49:22 PM   
Schanilec

 

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Agreed.

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 6:53:08 PM   
Schanilec

 

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All right Bullwinkle come on out or the squirrel gets it.

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 7:47:57 PM   
dazoline II


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If its any consolation the attitude about IA players has migrated to the WitE forum.
While not as rabid as it was in it's heyday here, its another fourm where I now just lurk rather than post.

While it maybe a matter of thickening your skin to others comments it eventually reaches the point that you know your unwelcome on certain forums so why bother to post.




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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 8:21:47 PM   
LST Express


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This is a more interesting place with guys like Bullwinkle in it imo.




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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 8:47:45 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

...However, I do believe PBEM players get frustrated (as I do) when someone that only played the AI tries to give out strategy, but failed to try PBEM style of play.
This is mainly why I haven't done an AAR, only did one and it was constant annoyance from AI players trying to "help".



There are strong players who for several reasons are limited to only playing the AI.

There are weak players who play PBEM. If matched against a strong PBEM player, often (but not always) the weak player just abandons the game immediately upon suffering a setback. If both PBEM players are weak they will usually continue and enjoy their match but may learn little in the process.

Then there are the players who perhaps due to nerves or some other factor, find it difficult to maintain a high standard in their play but can objectively analyse very well and provide quality commentary. On the other hand there are strong players who are quite incapable of transferring their knowledge to others.

I would put it to you that if you received such poor advice from AI only players, the quality of advice from those same sources would not improve markedly were they to become PBEM players.

I have certainly seen enough poor quality advice from PBEM players to not share your view that AI player advice = poor, PBEM player advice = good.

To give an example of the pointless generalisation you have made, consider Bullwinkle's advice in GreyJoy's AAR to use the Solomons to confront rader. Everyone in that AAR, including PBEM players who argued otherwise, now think that theatre of operations has been an Allied success. Remarkable that an AI player like Bullwinkle could have come up with the advice. I guess he must have just fluked it.

Alfred

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 9:33:10 PM   
Canoerebel


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Deleted as I shouldn't be discussing GreyJoy's AAR out here "in the open."

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/21/2011 10:09:21 PM >

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 10:10:07 PM   
GreyJoy


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*delated cause CR was faster than me *

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 10:13:21 PM   
jeffk3510


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What is delated...?



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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 11:11:00 PM   
Schanilec

 

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Becoming early?

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/21/2011 11:51:16 PM   
SuluSea


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Sorry to hear of this regarding Bullwinkle, I enjoyed his posts and he always seemed ready to lend  advice to someone having issues or a newbie.

I hope time heals wounds and he'll be back soon and congratulations on the wedding , shipmate!

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 12:39:10 AM   
Bullwinkle58


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SuluSea

Sorry to hear of this regarding Bullwinkle, I enjoyed his posts and he always seemed ready to lend  advice to someone having issues or a newbie.

I hope time heals wounds and he'll be back soon and congratulations on the wedding , shipmate!


Well, now that I've been outed by my good, upside-down friend, Alfred, how can I refuse to ack a wedding wish?

I've never had a thread about lil' ole me. Sniff.

What Alfred relates is largely correct. I don't believe I've posted since an unpleasant interchange over HR theory in which I was stiff-armed on the "you only play the AI" plank. I've read a good bit--less than I used to--but I've played more in the time saved. (Also gotten into more resource-demanding games since I've gotten the Super-PC named Gus in the house. "Fallout: New Vegas" fully-modded is a lot of fun with all the bells on.) I've also had some long, interesting interchanges with Alfred. Any here who don't carefully consider his advice would be unwise. I've yet to find a topic where his learning is not both deeper and wider than my own, including the administration of Millard Fillmore!! (I couldn't even name the CURRENT Aussie PM until helped by him.)

If I may wax philosophical for a moment, I see the forum changing, and, if I may say so, balkanizing as the game enters its mid-life. The second (third?) large wave of newbies is meeting advice fatigue, and, if I may further suggest, failing in large part to read the manual or resources available here before asking for help. Players are increasingly splitting into their camps, not only PBEM/AI, but the various Babes groups, the heavy modders, Threadsters, the exclusive AAR writers and/or readers, the beta testers, and so on. I've seen this happen in other forums over time; it's natural. But a lot of the early, free-wheeling topicitis is over, and a lot of that was what I loved. We've beateen the big toipics to death: ASW, CAP, CD gunnery, supply movement, flak, stacking. This is not to say that these oldie goldies aren't still discussed, but unfortunately often when they are the fangs come out. The forum is a lot meaner than it used to be. My personal green-button list is nearing a dozen. A lot of old-timers have gone or gone quiet, and others have, as I said, balkanized into lodges.

One thing which I think could help (but I don't have a solution for) is if more, or almost any, games could get to 1944. I've been playing late-war in my Scen 2 game for several months, and am in 1/45 as Allies. I've tried the Downfall scenario, and it's nice, but very different than a late game you've engineered and enter with whatever forces you've managed to maintain, where-is, as-is. It's really a different game than the first two years, massively "picky and clicky" as the housekeeping is overwhelminmg, but it's also a lot of fun for an Allied player to finally have everything he needs to attack on many fronts at once. I have four or five major sieges going, and am hopping across over a dozen islands every week. I have B-29s at the two bases on Sakhalin Island and am experimenting with large-scale strat bombing for the first time. To that though I also early-activated the kami code, and multi-engine kamis by the, literally, thousands have been whacking at everything that moves for a year. The carnage has been brutal. I wish some mainline AARs could get to this era. Reading, and re-reading, playing and re-playing, the same old first-year moves is another reason I pulled back. I know the AI scripts aren't written, but I wish some good PBEM players--or a lot of them --would start Nik's May 1942 scenario on 2-day turns. I'd read that one.

So, anyway, I'm alive. Happily married. Still playing. Still reading, most days, at least for a few minutes. I'm touched that folks miss me; I never thought I had that much to offer outside of some submarine knowledge and general "been there" on the USN, which is not uncommon around these parts. I would urge the regulars who value this forum's health, however, to examine their participation, choose battles carefully, tone down the venom, gently guide newbies while encouraging self-study, and get some games to the later phases when the fur really flies.

Oh, Rocky sez "hi". Whatsamatta U. plays Bemidji State Normal School for Girls on Saturday. Bring your raccoon coat and ukulele.

< Message edited by Bullwinkle58 -- 9/22/2011 12:45:14 AM >


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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 1:01:54 AM   
Cribtop


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Glad you're still around Bull. I played AI only for years and now am PBEMing, but enjoyed and learned from both experiences.

I agree about getting to the late war. I wish there was a May '42 start scenario and perhaps a late '43 or early '44 start as well.


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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 3:00:48 AM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cribtop

Glad you're still around Bull. I played AI only for years and now am PBEMing, but enjoyed and learned from both experiences.

I agree about getting to the late war. I wish there was a May '42 start scenario and perhaps a late '43 or early '44 start as well.



There is a 42 Start Scenario, I actually just started a pbem few days ago with it:)

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 2:55:47 PM   
Numdydar

 

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I have to comment even though I am someone late to the party. I have played both against the AI and PBEM, but an expert I am NOT .

The major issue with games under the latest 'official' patch and any beta up to p8 is simply that the entire Japan economy is destroyed by mid '43 so the AI never really had a chance. Which is why games playing the Allies tended to end much sooner than historically when starting in 41. Starting in '42 will just delay things as the underlying problems will still be there. This has been fixed in the beta p8 and higher patches. So games started using these (or updated soon after the start, say 2/42), the Japanese AI will do a much better job than before.

When playing as the Allies, while you can do many things (and take much greater risks as these are just bits and not real people. plus a save is just a few clicks away ), the easiest thing to do is to just tone down your tempo. The same is true when playing Japan. Sure you can run amock in 41/42, but don't. By slowing down the pace you can have, you are allowing for the AI to have a chance to perform better. When playing either side against the AI, if you exceed too much, the AI becomes 'broken' and will never recover. The best part is that you do not need a mod to do this

Against a human, the rush by JFBs to auto victory seems to be a main goal. It was likely that I would have been able to achieve an auto victory in 1/1/43, but after discussing this with my opponet, I decided to not do that. I will never know (as we sure are not going to go back and play again from that point, although I do have a save ).) So if you start a game as a JFB, plan for the long haul and not for the arbitary AV dates. Because historically, it was a war to the end regardless of the land area under Axis control. It would just have meant more A-bombs would have been dropped.

So in our PBEM game we will be going to 45/46. It will take much longer, be more difficult for Japan, i.e. me, but will give the game a chance to see how the late war will pan out. IMHO, if you are not willing to do that in a PBEM game, you should not even start. As playing the Allies, going through the tough beginning of the game, not to be able to see how your strategy that you start laying out in late 42 turns out and have my opponet quit on 1/43 would be extreamely fustratiing to me. So I can understand why many people would play the AI as that avoides the whole issue.

So bottom line for me (your milage may vary ), is against the AI for either side, try not to 'break' the AI (as many have shown how easy that is) and if you are a JFB in a PBEM, avoid AV and plan for the long game. If you can't do that as a JFB, then at least let your counterpart know up front that you plan on stopping on X date. That way there will no surprises for either of you, execpt in the game

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 3:23:27 PM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

The forum is a lot meaner than it used to be.



You forgot about Japan!

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 8:30:48 PM   
DOCUP


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I am playing both AI and PBEM. I have remembered some things that Bullwinkle has posted in the past and I have used them in both games. So I will say thank you to Bullwinkle. There are alot more people I need to thank but this thread is to Bull so I decided to drop in and say my peace.

doc

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 9:05:46 PM   
zuluhour


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Be nice to newbs. My manual is a loose leaf folder. Its really a thousand pages if you count how many times I have refered to it. The info in the threads is great but I find looking for specifics via search very difficult. I have never used a thread as a means of communication before so I have posted War Room stuff in the Tech threads etc.. IM SORRY!!! I do think I am getting a little better at it. I only Hijacked this because I follow CRs AAR and he has been quite cordial as well as helpful to me. I would say to Bullwinkle (I'd rather talk to Natasha) have patience with some of us "old" newbies and comment all ya like to us (me)! *&^%man I'm gettin by buttock busted. in PBEM. But I am enjoying it (dont tell my wife) and further more if to many of you "old guard" PBEMers or AIers left it would be a bummer for the cruits!

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 10:49:48 PM   
DD696

 

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quote

What Alfred relates is largely correct. I don't believe I've posted since an unpleasant interchange over HR theory in which I was stiff-armed on the "you only play the AI" plank. I've read a good bit--less than I used to--but I've played more in the time saved.

If I may wax philosophical for a moment, I see the forum changing, and, if I may say so, balkanizing as the game enters its mid-life. The second (third?) large wave of newbies is meeting advice fatigue, and, if I may further suggest, failing in large part to read the manual or resources available here before asking for help. Players are increasingly splitting into their camps, not only PBEM/AI, but the various Babes groups, the heavy modders, Threadsters, the exclusive AAR writers and/or readers, the beta testers, and so on. I've seen this happen in other forums over time; it's natural. But a lot of the early, free-wheeling topicitis is over, and a lot of that was what I loved. We've beateen the big toipics to death: ASW, CAP, CD gunnery, supply movement, flak, stacking. This is not to say that these oldie goldies aren't still discussed, but unfortunately often when they are the fangs come out. The forum is a lot meaner than it used to be. A lot of old-timers have gone or gone quiet, and others have, as I said, balkanized into lodges.

unquote


This is Oh so true. But just not for AE, true throughout WitP as well. The AI player is a non-entity for many here, and the venom that flows easily from a T and a J is quite discouraging for people who visit here. 'Tis a real shame that when a PBEM player finds a problem it is a real crisis, but should an AI player report a problem, it is a "don't allow an AI player to know anything" and ignore, problem.


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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 10:56:57 PM   
Canoerebel


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I don't think the majority (maybe the vast majority) of PBEM players make distinctions between advice coming from knowledgeable AI and PBEM players.  So, I also think the AI players may be letting the few curmudgeons tarnish the reputations of the rest of us.  Honestly, as long as the advice is good, who cares whether it's AI or PBEM?

That said, it is legitimate for players to make differentiations and judgment calls.  If I see posts by Bullwinkle or JohnDillworth (both AI players), I'm paying attention.  But if there's a post from somebody who says, "Wow, I just sank 37 enemy carriers and battleships and it's only December 19, 1941," then I'm going to immeditately conclude that guy is likley playing the AI and is relatively new to the game.  In that case, I don't think I'll be able to benefit very much from what he has to say.  I may be wrong, but since I cannot read everything in the Forums, I am likely to use it as an indication that I don't need to devote time there.

< Message edited by Canoerebel -- 9/22/2011 10:57:15 PM >

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/22/2011 11:22:24 PM   
oldman45


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Bullwinkle, glad to see ya posting. I had just assumed you were enjoys the newly wed bliss and had not come up for air yet.

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/23/2011 1:38:24 AM   
Nemo121


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Well, while, unfortunately, AI players have been selected out as a group to be despised by some here I think a few things need to be remembered:

1. Not all PBEM players would belittle AI only players.

2. In reality the two groups which most attack AI players are two cliques which engage in quite a lot of disparaging behaviour and creation of a "them vs us" ethos vs others they disapprove of. So this vs AI thing isn't an outlier. it is part of a pattern.

3. Many of the AI only players know a damn sight more about strategy than any of the people in these groups. I think that's a crucial point we would do well to remember.


It is a pity that Bullwinkle feels he can best spend time elsewhere BUT he is by no means alone and so long as these bullies ( which is what they are ) continue to be tolerated by the majority of the forumites then the forumites will get the increasingly dysfunctional and unhelpful forum which they, through their actions, deserve. Whenever people have stood up against this the silence "backing them up" from the majority of the forum has been deafening.


So, people get what they deserve. If you are in a thread and see someone bullied then step in. If you don't then you can't expect to complain when that thread loses the benefit of their input. If you see a group in the forum being bullied then if you don't step in you are partly responsible for their withdrawal from the forum and in them telling others the forum is an unpleasant place to be - which causes the game to grow stale in the long run.

This isn't an attack on any people in particular but, rather, a pointing out that people need to accept personal responsibility. If you've seen unreasonable attacks and haven't stepped in to stop them then you are, partially, responsible. I've heard from many people who decry some of the behaviour on here but say they won't say so publicly because they don't want to get attacked themselves. I respect their choice but, by the same token, because they don't stand up it makes it more likely those attacks continue and the forum degenerates until only those who are "approved of" are allowed to have a voice.


As to the specific point though: The ability to form an appropriate strategic analysis and engage in the theory and assessment behind such things has nothing to do with AI vs PBEM play. Playing PBEM involves issues which aren't involved in AI only play ( primarily to do with the psychological interplay ) and so in those areas I think there's some validity to saying that people who are more experienced in being practically successful in PBEMs may have more to say that's worth listening to in those areas. That's merely a reflection that practical success tends to suggest they should be listened to than anything inherent in AI only players though. Even with that said though I find it amusing to read comments by players with a record of success in some AARs who are advising relative newbies and find the newbies disagree with them etc etc when, most of the time, I find myself thinking - "Hmmm, the guy giving advice almost always succeeds, the guy receiving it almost always fails and yet he won't listen to the guy who usually succeeds. Strange." This is one reason I think we really need Alfred to resurrect the GrandMaster/Sensei thread and bring it to a conclusion. Newish players need to know who is actually worth really listening to.

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RE: Bullwinkle, where art thou? - 9/23/2011 1:48:34 AM   
Canoerebel


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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
Nah, what we really need is a Nemo vs. Alfred match in Scenario Two.  With both sides keeping AARs.


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 30
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