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V2 Battle of Nancy

 
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V2 Battle of Nancy - 9/20/2011 11:24:47 PM   
sweeteye


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Figured I might as well let everyone have a go at it. Many thanks to simovitch. Have deleted version one.Version two can be found in a post far below.




< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/30/2011 10:30:45 AM >


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/21/2011 12:43:35 AM   
wodin


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Excellent mate...your efforts are truely appreciated..

I'm hoping that some hardcore east front enthusiast gets hold of the game and makes a major mod...as I don't see and east front game being made by Panther sadly.

I love the game system...but the West front in WW2 has never really grabbed me. Now West front WW1 thats a massive obsession but not WW2, like I said it's the East Front I want to see.

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/21/2011 12:52:11 AM   
sweeteye


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Yes....absolutely....an Eastern front scenario would be great. I would love to do a map and scenario of Stalingrad. Perhaps before too long I could work on that one or some other interesting eastern front battle...Wish it did not take so much time to make maps...Hopefully more people will attempt to make maps and scenarios and release them.

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/21/2011 12:52:16 AM   
simovitch


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Excellent effort sweeteye. I have a few comments for your consideration:

1. Roads over streams do not require crossings. It is usually a good idea to just run the road/rail right over these.

2. You need to check to see if any of the roads got blocked out by the rivers. This happens when the road is placed to close to major or minor rivers. The terrain tables should be looked at closely for motorized movement.

3. I don't understand why some of your regiments have Bn structures while other just have a group of subordinate line companies.

4. Some of your companies are labeled as AT or heavy wpn but the estab is just a grenade company.

5. Your German panzergrenadier units are all (gp) type which means they are mechanized with halftracks. It is unlikely that even 25% of the grenadier companies in this battle were mechanized. You should use the motorized truck companies instead for 3/4ths of the pzgrn.

BFTB comes with ready-made force lists that have a good representation of the different units that fought during this period in NW Europe. This battle was fought right before a major reorganization of the German Divisional structures (i.e. Volksgrenadiers and 2-Bn Regiments) seen in the Bulge, but the US units are pretty much the same. You could save a lot of time just importing these into the Scenario maker and changing the regiment number.

That's it for now, hope this helps. Keep up the good effort.


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/21/2011 12:58:18 AM   
simovitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

as I don't see and east front game being made by Panther sadly.

Not keeping up on current events wodin?

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/21/2011 1:18:00 AM   
sweeteye


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Thanks for the input simovitch. I will certainly take your notes into consideration. I have really struggled with creating the OOBs from scratch. I have taken my information from several sources I have found on the web and pieced together the OOBs.One such link is here: http://www.bayonetstrength.150m.com/German/german_army.htm

I will go back over the OOBs and try to correct them as you suggest.I did import the units for the German 3rd parachute regiment and the 92 Flieger regiment from stock organizations. I did haphazardly add a few infantry companies to the 92.I believe I need to take a closer look at the games unit organizations as I believe there are some areas I do not fully understand, or should I say leaving out..Something I just thought of : In the past the OOBs I have worked on in other games were American Civil War and Revolution and some Napoleonic period. Of course the organization and unit types were much simpler then... I think that is why I am inclined to have so many line companies in the regiments.

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/21/2011 1:49:02 AM >


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/21/2011 3:09:35 AM   
sweeteye


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I was just looking some of the stock OOBs and comparing them to what I have so far for this scenario. I can see how I could make the OOBs much better. Seems I overlooked the fact that all of the American divisions needed for the scenario already exist in stock form. As for the Germans It is simply a matter of renaming the units except for the 92 flieger regiment. I will try to have a better version of the scenario as soon as possible. Should not take too long.

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/21/2011 1:53:03 PM   
ulisin

 

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quote:

I will try to have a better version of the scenario as soon as possible. Should not take too long.


Cool!
It's a ten day scenario? Very cool!! A lot of work, I suppose!!!


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/21/2011 2:00:56 PM   
sweeteye


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Here is the scenario and map with the corrected OOB as suggested by simovitch. It certainly looks much better now.The German part of the OOB could still use some work but it is better than before.The unit designations for the U.S. OOB are the same as the stock OOBs I imported...had to make no changes to the unit designations.The German OOB for the most part has been imported from stock ....only had to change the unit designations although with some of the artillery type units I could not change the unit designations due to lack of information. Overall it is much more realistic. I will adjust the bridges on the map before I release an updated version of the scenario. Seems to be the railroad bridges that need edited where the tracks cross streams. I only have road bridges over the minor rivers and canals... not sure if I want to edit the ones over the canals. Version one has been deleted.

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/24/2011 6:55:55 PM >


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/21/2011 2:09:31 PM   
sweeteye


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Hello ulisin....Actually the scenario came together rather quickly...I estimate about sixteen hours of work plus an additional four hours to correct the OOB. Making the map was the most time consuming. The scenario will of course probably have to be adjusted after testing.

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/21/2011 2:10:58 PM >


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/22/2011 3:04:54 AM   
wodin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: simovitch


quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

as I don't see and east front game being made by Panther sadly.

Not keeping up on current events wodin?



Oh...erm...I'm lost for words...thats the best news Iv'e heard in a very, very longtime with regards to game development.

I never went back to that thread as I thought I may have upset JD. So stayed away from it.

Arjuna and your goodself as well as all the others who develop or help with development have my sincerest gratitude....thank you.

Why hasn't that post\news been shouted from the roof tops!

Will be superb if it coincides with an East front Combat Mission game...

@sweeteye...please, please I implore thee to make a stalingrad mod...alot of work though making a Russian OOB with weapons etc etc. still if you manage it you'd be a mod hero.

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/22/2011 10:41:54 AM   
sweeteye


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wodin...I have been thinking about what it would take to make a Stalingrad scenario.Seems like the map would be the easy part.As you have mentioned the Russian estab could prove to be difficult to make unless I could get some really good information on Russian weapons and vehicles.The OOB might not be too hard to make ....should be a lot of information available I would think.I know ulisin has suggested an Anzio scenario which would also be interesting....Have much work ahead of me....

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/22/2011 11:13:57 AM   
Lieste

 

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I'd 'do' the sideshows in the Western Theatre - possibly the follow-on from Dragoon, Shingle, Avalanche, Husky or Torch.

Each uses most/part of the existing Estab, extending it slightly further back in time, until Torch meets the end of the Desert Estabs.

Starting a new Estab is big work, and you would be duplicating on-going effort to attempt a parallel Eastern Front game... if you are really keen and have lots of data, and time to dedicate (and preferably can manage technical/military German &/or Russian) then offer your expertise to the Eastern Front DDT

Ultimately your choice, as you have the tools, but you can make more content in less time by modifying the existing data than by working from scratch.

Even working on a '44 Hungary scn would be 'easier' as you could at least re-use the German forces...
'42 Germans are quite different, and most of the weapons are older versions not present.


< Message edited by Lieste -- 9/22/2011 11:16:08 AM >

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/22/2011 11:24:40 AM   
sweeteye


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Very good points to consider Lieste...I believe working on Anzio first would be best...for the same reasons you point out. I am interested in Stalingrad but am by no means a military weapons expert.Trying to figure out what weapons go to what unit and in what quantity would be a challenge. Would have to have really good information to make the estab correctly. I still consider my maps to be of mediocre quality and hope to improve them with each one I make.Same goes for my scenarios....there is certainly room for improvements.....

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/22/2011 11:26:17 AM >


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/22/2011 12:49:24 PM   
ulisin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL:  sweeteye
Very good points to consider Lieste...I believe working on Anzio first would be best...for the same reasons you point out.


COOL!
Of course I vote... Anzio!
There are a couple of situations very suitable, INMHO.

A few other suggestions, INMHO
- short scenarios and little maps can be more suitable! And they will be very useful for MP games. And so, you will get two gamers with only one scen! -)-)
- less work to see your job finished!

Another suggestion
- did you think to use other wargames to have a help?
(Combat command, for example: its scale is quite similar to Command ops)
Same as other ideas, that in my opinion could be very suitable for Command Ops system:
- some action of Salerno Battle (I think someone has tried to do something - search for it here, in the matrix forum)
- some action of Sicily campaign

or why not
- Sidi Bou zid?
- Kasserine?

(Eastern front... Yes, utterly interesting.  But we have only one life).

bye
thanks

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/22/2011 3:18:42 PM   
sweeteye


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A short time ago I was looking at the maps you brought to my attention in another thread.They looked usable for an overlay and will probably produce nice looking maps. They are fairly small as well and the scenarios made on them would be fairly small as well. I will start gathering information on Anzio as time permits.I am not as familiar with the Italian campaign as I am with the campaigns in north western Europe and I will need to do a little reading. My father served in the 106th division during the Battle of the Bulge and became a POW for several months. I have always been fascinated with The Battle of the Bulge since I was a child and thus have more knowledge of the northern west front campaigns. I did look at a map of Kasserine Pass a short time ago but opted for the Battle of Nancy.I may look into some other games as finances allow but over the past 12 years I have bought numerous flight simulations as well as other war games and many of them I do not even use much. Have built up quite a collection.Really have to be selective about what I purchase now. Indeed the right game could be useful.

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/22/2011 3:27:32 PM >


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/22/2011 10:25:14 PM   
wodin


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How about Monte Casino?

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/22/2011 10:48:35 PM   
sweeteye


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Ah yes... Casino....I used to play an old fashioned board game by Avalon Hill back in the 1980's of Casino...Was an excellent game...Certainly would make a good scenario for BFTB...

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/22/2011 11:25:31 PM >


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/22/2011 11:22:03 PM   
sweeteye


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I have played through the first half of the scenario and to say the least I am disappointed with the German AI.As I have mentioned in the AAR section I do not understand why the Germans are not counterattacking in force.Perhaps they will in the second half of the scenario...Would be interesting to know how others are faring.

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/23/2011 12:12:03 AM   
Arjuna


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sweeteye,

Have you done a rough combat power ratio for the forces involved. To do so:

  • Clone your scenario - do a save as
  • In the SM set all reinforcement to the start of the scenario
  • Open in the game as the Axis and lasoo all the forces. Note the stats on the general tab in the sidebar and in particular the APerFP, Armour, AArmFP and Bombard values.
  • Run again, this time as the allies, and note their stats.
  • Then calc the combat power:

    • Work out the APerFP Ratio - Divide the strongest by the weakest. This then becomes your raw CP ratio.
    • Then work out the armour ratio by taking the side with the most armour and dividing this by the opposing force's AArmFP.
    • Now shift the raw CP by one level for each level of the armour ratio minus one - ie raw CP = raw CP + ( arm ratio - 1 ). Eg if the raw CP is 2:1, and the Armour ratio is also 2:1, then the CP ratio becomes 3:1. If the arm ratio was 1:3 then it would shift the other way two levels and become 1:2.
    • Work out the bombard ratio - by dividing the strongest with the weakest and applying shifts as per armour



Now this is only a rough order of magnitude but it should give you an idea of the relative strengths. You may find that one side or the other is way outclassed and needs some additional forces or better effectiveness ( morale, training, experience, aggro ).

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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/23/2011 12:48:55 AM   
sweeteye


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Thanks Arjuna....your notes look interesting....I will do the calculations as soon as I finish playing this first test. I have just finished day six and the battle seems to be heating up. Getting more interesting.Of course I do not know how the AI is programmed to function but it seems that the AI gets more aggressive towards the end of the scenario....have not played enough to know for sure but it seems that way.....I was looking at some of the German morale and aggro etc...last night and noticed for example that the 5th parachute regiment has low morale and they are positioned in a critical center spot in the scenario. Probably increasing their morale would help. Thanks again....

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/23/2011 12:53:30 AM >


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RE: Battle of Nancy:Released - 9/23/2011 2:47:19 AM   
Arjuna


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Yes unit effectiveness values can play a big part.

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V2 Battle of Nancy Uploaded - 9/24/2011 6:51:50 PM   
sweeteye


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x

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 9/13/2013 12:42:49 PM >


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RE: V2 Battle of Nancy Uploaded - 9/24/2011 9:29:12 PM   
starbuck310

 

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Nice work thank you

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RE: V2 Battle of Nancy Uploaded - 10/4/2011 12:05:42 PM   
wodin


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Something I awlays find very useful at the start of a scenario is checking when Obj's become active...this gives me a good Idea where I need to go and the time scale...I notice in this scenario they all start on day one. Makes it diificult for me.

Still what would be very handy is in the briefing once the scenario has started if you give a rough outline plan of what needs to be done. Many scenarios have this and it's an invaluable piece of intel.

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RE: V2 Battle of Nancy Uploaded - 10/4/2011 3:11:09 PM   
sweeteye


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Yes I suppose I should write a list of all the objectives in the briefing although when the scenario starts there is a full list to look at.I do not see that activating the objectives at different times is needed in this scenario. It could be done that way.... I am going to include some more details in each sides briefing for this next updated version. There is a historical account in the description which should give some idea of where to attack.It does take a long time to test a scenario well and find what needs to be changed.Especially by myself.That is why I went ahead with posting it.Figured I would get feedback from players that will help...I will fix the briefings up better.I am hesitant to change the objective start times because they affect the AI.I am sure it could be done and made to work well though.Thanks for your input.....

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 10/4/2011 3:13:28 PM >


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RE: V2 Battle of Nancy Uploaded - 10/4/2011 11:12:32 PM   
wodin


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I dont just want a lsit of Obj's...I want to know roughly the time schedule for attack...Even something like Regiment 317 will head north then east along with....319 will head south to .... then east to ... Main assualt on Nancy should sart around day 4....

Normally checking Obj activations can give you a excellent idea on rouhly what day yiou should be thinking of attacking especially in long scenarios. At the minute with nancy unless you know loads about the battle looking at the obj's you have no idea at all what your time schedule should be. Like I said it's a massive planning aid which is missing due to Obj's all starting on day 1 and it's pretty impossible to be at nancy on day 1. The Germans should have their own Obj times.

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RE: V2 Battle of Nancy Uploaded - 10/4/2011 11:31:45 PM   
sweeteye


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I see your point but if I change the objective start times it will affect the AI dramatically.Probably not for the better of the scenario overall.If you really would like to have them set differently I would suggest changing them and see what happens.I will look into it and see what might happen and what types of changes would be needed.It seems pretty straight forward what the U.S. needs to do.Attack Toul first.Probably move to the North and attack Pont a Mousson.When the 35th division arrives possibly make a strike to the south. The Germans just need to stay behind the river and defend for the most part.A German advance and attack in the south looks tempting to me.The AI are influenced by the objectives and spreading out their activation would take a lot more testing.

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 10/4/2011 11:51:34 PM >


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RE: V2 Battle of Nancy Uploaded - 10/4/2011 11:41:02 PM   
Lieste

 

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With objectives you have both the start time and activation time (I have a feeling that this behaviour has been adjusted/fixed during recent testing, so it might not work as intended pre-patch)... but you should be able to 'give' the AI the full objective list for the day, while rewarding the player and AI with VL only during the active portion. I'll double check what is happening once I've run a few HTTR test scenarios through, because that is more urgent.
I think the activation time must be after the start time, so it is the point at which VP are accumulated/player needs to be 'on', and start time is when the AI is 'allowed' to allocate troops & seriously move on it, to prevent lack of focus. The AI will focus on objectives that are going 'off' so a sequence of two objectives in the same area (not overlapping in time) might make it more urgently focussed on that objective.

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RE: V2 Battle of Nancy Uploaded - 10/4/2011 11:55:59 PM   
sweeteye


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Interesting Lieste...I certainly will have to do more experimenting to see what might happen.I really do not want to make dramatic changes right now because the AI seem to be working well as it is.

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