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French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 5:34:32 PM   
John 3rd


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Cut this out of the Perfect War Thread: Allied Side

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
2. Skyland: The French? Is there any aircraft for those boys or are they strictly land and sea?

I would love to see some Morane-Saulnier 406s. Maybe a squadron or two could get some Dewoitine 520s sometime? The Bloch 170s and Amiot 350 series weren't bad 2E light bombers either.

Didn't the French have a nice naval dive bomber? A Loire-Nieupor
t?

This is a call for anyone who has done French aircraft in AE. Has anyone accomplished this and, more importantly, would you be interested in adding it to the Perfect War Mod?


< Message edited by John 3rd -- 9/20/2011 5:35:06 PM >


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 5:50:35 PM   
Misconduct


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I can give all the specifications if needed for french aircraft, ships, tanks and units.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 6:01:49 PM   
oldman45


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I would love to see them too, but the question is spare parts. These planes have been flying for over a year since the fall of France. Whats keeping them in the air?

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 6:12:34 PM   
Misconduct


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I would love to see them too, but the question is spare parts. These planes have been flying for over a year since the fall of France. Whats keeping them in the air?


I don't think there would be any spare parts, more so I would believe they fly more Allied aircraft (hurri, P40s, Spitfires) rather then french aircraft themselves.

Edited: For example, they would start out flying D.520's, but when the planes run out have to switch to other aircrafts.

< Message edited by Misconduct -- 9/20/2011 6:13:56 PM >


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 6:20:18 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Cut this out of the Perfect War Thread: Allied Side

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
2. Skyland: The French? Is there any aircraft for those boys or are they strictly land and sea?

I would love to see some Morane-Saulnier 406s. Maybe a squadron or two could get some Dewoitine 520s sometime? The Bloch 170s and Amiot 350 series weren't bad 2E light bombers either.

Didn't the French have a nice naval dive bomber? A Loire-Nieupor
t?

This is a call for anyone who has done French aircraft in AE. Has anyone accomplished this and, more importantly, would you be interested in adding it to the Perfect War Mod?




In Indo-China they had some squads of Potez-25 TOEs, a handful of MS.406, and some Farman 221s. Also a handful of CAMS 55 patrol flying boats and a few Loire 130 flying boats. By the end of the war, most of these were not in servicable condition due to lack of spares.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 6:46:32 PM   
JWE

 

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While ya'll are at it; something that might just warm the cockles of Skyland's little french fried heart would be a Latecoere 302 flying boat.

If you gots French ships and French troops, you need 'something' from the Armee de l'Air. Replacement parts? Ce qui fait ce moyen, pièces de rechange? Choses inutiles. Yeah, they will need to upgrade to something eventually, just like the Dutch, but the Dutch flew for a loooong time after the fall of the Netherlands. If you are gonna add French ships and troops, I think it's worth it to add some planes, too. Just mho

Basically, my friends, if you are going to do France, then do France.

< Message edited by JWE -- 9/20/2011 7:04:10 PM >


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 7:59:28 PM   
oldman45


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You just had to make me break out the translator didn't ya I agree there needs to be French planes, they had some good ones. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of flying them with out parts.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 8:18:50 PM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Cut this out of the Perfect War Thread: Allied Side

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
2. Skyland: The French? Is there any aircraft for those boys or are they strictly land and sea?

I would love to see some Morane-Saulnier 406s. Maybe a squadron or two could get some Dewoitine 520s sometime? The Bloch 170s and Amiot 350 series weren't bad 2E light bombers either.

Didn't the French have a nice naval dive bomber? A Loire-Nieupor
t?

This is a call for anyone who has done French aircraft in AE. Has anyone accomplished this and, more importantly, would you be interested in adding it to the Perfect War Mod?




I have everything you need
I can do also the Loire Nieuport LN410 and the Laté 302.


The list of aircraft already done is here :
https://sites.google.com/site/waroptionswitpaemod/home/arts/air-arts/france

Fighter :
Morane Saulnier MS-406/MS-410
Curtiss H-75 A4
Koolhoven FK-58A
Potez 631
Bréguet Br.700
Supermarine Spitfire IX

Heavy Bomber :
Farman 221

Medium Bomber :
Potez 542
Glenn Martin 167 F

Dive Bomber :
Curtiss CW-77

Attack Bomber :
Bréguet Br.693

Recon :
Potez 63.11
Potez 25 A2
Bréguet Br.694
Caudron C.510 Pélican

Transport :
Dewoitine 338
Potez 29
AAC-1 Toucan
Douglas Dakota

Seaplane :
Bréguet Br.521 Bizerte
Potez 452
Loire 130
Marcel Besson MB-411 Pétrel
C.A.M.S. 55-10
Latécoère 298 A
Consolidated PBY Catalina
Dewoitine HD-780


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 9:05:21 PM   
John 3rd


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Should have GUESSED Skyland had all this! OK. Want a REALISTIC proposal for some form of Frenchie Air Contingent...please place it in the Allied Portion of the Mod Thread.


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 11:05:07 PM   
el cid again

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Cut this out of the Perfect War Thread: Allied Side

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
2. Skyland: The French? Is there any aircraft for those boys or are they strictly land and sea?

I would love to see some Morane-Saulnier 406s. Maybe a squadron or two could get some Dewoitine 520s sometime? The Bloch 170s and Amiot 350 series weren't bad 2E light bombers either.

Didn't the French have a nice naval dive bomber? A Loire-Nieupor
t?

This is a call for anyone who has done French aircraft in AE. Has anyone accomplished this and, more importantly, would you be interested in adding it to the Perfect War Mod?




In Indo-China they had some squads of Potez-25 TOEs, a handful of MS.406, and some Farman 221s. Also a handful of CAMS 55 patrol flying boats and a few Loire 130 flying boats. By the end of the war, most of these were not in servicable condition due to lack of spares.


My test game opponent is a French pilot and he found data saying the CAMS 55s were down to one machine - in Tahiti. I have Potez 25 art and one other type in a WITP filmstrip if you want it and CAMS 55s in a AE filmstrip. But note the on map planes not in Tahiti would be Axis - not Allied

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/20/2011 11:17:19 PM   
wdolson

 

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The French also had Douglas DB-7s (A-20s), Vindicators, and SBC Helldivers.

Bill


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/21/2011 6:45:25 AM   
John 3rd


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Cool!

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/21/2011 5:37:17 PM   
oldman45


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The Glenn Martin 167F was the Maryland attack bomber. Kinda cool to add that to the DB.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/22/2011 5:08:03 AM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

You just had to make me break out the translator didn't ya I agree there needs to be French planes, they had some good ones. I just have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea of flying them with out parts.


They managed to keep aircraft in the air in NW Africa and Syria, probably cannibalised some aircraft to keep the rest flying.
Maybe give them a poor maintenance rating to show this.

IMHO, for the proposed changes to happen, lots of other things changed in the pre-war years. maybe France invested a bit more military force in FIC which makes these things happen.


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/22/2011 5:54:18 AM   
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The Vichy government was allowed to keep some aircraft in production and produce spares for some other aircraft.  Parts for the American built aircraft were hard to come by though, which is probably why only a few DB-7s were flying by November 1942.  I don't know how many of the Curtiss Hawks they kept flying, but they started with a fair number.

The Finnish kept their American and British aircraft flying as long as possible too, but ultimately they had to give up due to lack of spares.

Bill


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/22/2011 2:40:09 PM   
Shark7


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The way I did it for the Vichy was to put them in with a small pool and make sure the aircraft was listed as 'out of production' by giving it a start and end date of 41-12. Seems to be a workable solution...you get the squads and enough to keep them flying for a couple of years, but you can't produce French aircraft in Japanese factories.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/22/2011 6:30:41 PM   
oldman45


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The other way they kept flying was using allied aircraft. I know ppl want the French planes, but there are allied planes we don't use because the were only used in Europe or North Africa. Now we can include them as French planes.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/22/2011 6:45:15 PM   
Mundy


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The SBCs wound up being left to rust on the beach in the Caribbean, due to US pressure at the time after France fell.

U.S. concerns about the aircraft were placated while technically allowing the French to "keep" them.

Ed-

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/22/2011 8:34:39 PM   
DOCUP


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Yea, these aircraft shouldn't be able to last to the end of the war. But it will add some spice with the changes. Now correct me if I am wrong. With the new Beta; dosen't it allow you to upgrade AC from any nationality?

doc

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/23/2011 3:16:52 PM   
Shark7


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In my case it didn't matter because there is no 'Vichy' side I simply had to add all the Vichy units as heavily restricted Japanese units with a 'Vichy' HQ to answer to. I had to do the same with the RTAF as well.

If you add in stuff as Free French, being able to upgrade to any nationalities aircraft would be very useful.

If there ever is a WiTP2, the Axis side needs to have defined nationalities for the puppets (Thailand, Vichy, Manchuko, etc) and even Germany (who operated a handful of subs and surface raiders in the Indian Ocean).

< Message edited by Shark7 -- 9/23/2011 3:18:49 PM >


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/23/2011 8:48:10 PM   
el cid again

 

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I have done something similar - in particular adding Royal Thai Army and Royal Thai Navy HQ. My test game player is French, and he says "Indochina is complicated" - which is surely true. In the end, I decided to put in Indochina units on both sides. Northern Viet Nam is ruled in fact by the Viet Ming Provisional Government - and not far South - at Viet Tri - you have a French Foreign Legion regiment that ultimately fights its way North to China. Long ago I put it in when the Japanese take over (and its march) occurred - but I never like imposing late war decisions on players. So now it is in the game day one - but under a house rule to behave unless the Japanese attack.

These two "units" - the VC and the FFL - caused code to release other units meant to represent Vichy troops I am told. I found out how to define their formations - so they can be made more appropriate in size and weapons - and they are indeed not willing to move under Japanese orders. I do not see how to add a Vichy air force - or on what side? So the only French air force is FF - in Tahita (one tiny unit) and on ships.

Thailand also should have troops on both sides. On the first day of the war I have the Sixth Division spread out where it really was - supported by various miitary schools, police formations, and an air force ground detachment - to resist the invasion of the Kra Isthmus - then disappear. But other elements of the RTA reappear later in the war - in fact the commander of the RTN led the formation of a force and an operation to take over IJA HQ in Bangkok. But from late December 1941 until Spring 1944 - the RTA and RTAF actually are an axis force - and even invade "allied" territory. In quotes because I think it is reasonable to believe, as Thais do, that it was "really" Thai territory stolen from Thailand (at least in the case of Indochina and Malaya - not so much Burma) by Imperial Britian and France.

More important, in both countries. locations do not start all on one side -- their local economies do not work for Japan until integrated by capture of the "wrong side" locations - and make it clear why troops are not entirely avialable for offensives in other places early in the war?? This may contribute to taking longer to conquer Malaya and Burma than in games without that complexity - so I hope.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/24/2011 9:05:23 AM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

If there ever is a WiTP2, the Axis side needs to have defined nationalities for the puppets (Thailand, Vichy, Manchuko, etc) and even Germany (who operated a handful of subs and surface raiders in the Indian Ocean).


Well, Vichy was not an axis puppet. Notably, Indochina army faced several time the japanese and the thai (1940, 1941 and 1945). Because of lack of support from the US and UK, a kind of compromise was found with Japan : french authority is maintained and Japanese forces are allowed to use some airfields and port. This was valid until march 1945 when some japanese divisions overrunned the remaining french forces.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/24/2011 3:44:44 PM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

If there ever is a WiTP2, the Axis side needs to have defined nationalities for the puppets (Thailand, Vichy, Manchuko, etc) and even Germany (who operated a handful of subs and surface raiders in the Indian Ocean).


Well, Vichy was not an axis puppet. Notably, Indochina army faced several time the japanese and the thai (1940, 1941 and 1945). Because of lack of support from the US and UK, a kind of compromise was found with Japan : french authority is maintained and Japanese forces are allowed to use some airfields and port. This was valid until march 1945 when some japanese divisions overrunned the remaining french forces.


Vichy more or less was a puppet in that they all buy had to do what the Germans told them to do.

So they were and they weren't. Vichy did not actively fight against the Allies (though they did initially opposed Operation Torch), and the French Resistance and Free French did fight bravely for the Allies.

Indochina was unique in that they had no hope of any outside support, so it was for the best to remain as neutral as possible.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/24/2011 4:00:37 PM   
m10bob


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Later in the war the French also flew Grumman Hellcats and Martin Marauders.(I don't think they had Corsairs till '46?)

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/25/2011 12:11:28 AM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Vichy did not actively fight against the Allies (though they did initially opposed Operation Torch)...


Not just Torch. There was Dakar, and Syria. I am no expert, but I think that what resistance Vichy forces gave depended a lot on the inclinations of the local commander(s).

Andrew

PS: Edit - I forgot - Madagascar also...

< Message edited by Andrew Brown -- 9/25/2011 12:14:13 AM >

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/25/2011 12:49:23 AM   
Shark7


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Vichy did not actively fight against the Allies (though they did initially opposed Operation Torch)...


Not just Torch. There was Dakar, and Syria. I am no expert, but I think that what resistance Vichy forces gave depended a lot on the inclinations of the local commander(s).

Andrew

PS: Edit - I forgot - Madagascar also...


Good point Andrew. In New Caledonia, for example, the citizens chose to support the Free French as opposed to the Vichy and the colony very peacefully joined the Free French cause and did not resist the Allies at all. The same for French Polynesia (the Marquesas).

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/25/2011 1:14:01 AM   
JWE

 

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I think - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that John's paradigm is that there is no Vichy and no FFL, just France (that displaced to North Africa or the UK, if I recall correctly). As such, we're talking about the colonial vestiges of a still relatively unified national entity, in much the same way as we look at the Dutch in the DEI after the fall of the Netherlands.

IRL, or IRL "what if's " are fun, but John has a scenario paradigm that we should keep in mind.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/25/2011 2:55:42 AM   
wdolson

 

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Different colonies decided to join different sides at different times.  A lot had to do with their location.  The French islands in the Pacific were wise to join the Free French because they were a lot closer to several Allied countries than they were to any Axis countries.  Indochina had to play ball with the Japanese because they were deep behind enemy lines from virtually the start of the war.  The only Allied power nearby was China and it was weak.

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RE: French Aircraft - 9/25/2011 6:35:21 AM   
John 3rd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

I think - and please correct me if I'm wrong - that John's paradigm is that there is no Vichy and no FFL, just France (that displaced to North Africa or the UK, if I recall correctly). As such, we're talking about the colonial vestiges of a still relatively unified national entity, in much the same way as we look at the Dutch in the DEI after the fall of the Netherlands.

IRL, or IRL "what if's " are fun, but John has a scenario paradigm that we should keep in mind.


Thanks John! FatR and I appreciate it.

Looks like we've got the French and Thai pretty well all sowed up. Glad to get some of this settled and truly appreciate the support, help, and ideas thrown out here. Thanks, again, to Skyland and the work he has given us.


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RE: French Aircraft - 9/25/2011 8:32:17 AM   
Skyland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7
Vichy did not actively fight against the Allies (though they did initially opposed Operation Torch)...


Not just Torch. There was Dakar, and Syria. I am no expert, but I think that what resistance Vichy forces gave depended a lot on the inclinations of the local commander(s).

Andrew

PS: Edit - I forgot - Madagascar also...



Vichy was a "neutral" state recognized by every countries except UK. They did not received direct order from the german. Every german request was discussed and negociated with compensation. It was very complex situation.
At 1st, the german did not allow Vichy to have more than symbolic military forces. It was only after Mers el Kebir attack (part of Catapult) that a force was reconstituted.

The Vichy forces were ordered to resist any aggression by the gov because if not the german will have a pretext to invade the free zone.

Note that the resistance was strong against the UK because the MeK attack was considered as a UK trahison by the french military. The resistance was more "symbolic" during Torch because it was the US (that's why UK planes were wearing US marking).

It is interesting discussion but OT so i will stop here, sorry John !

< Message edited by Skyland -- 9/25/2011 8:37:17 AM >


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