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NKVD and Finnish border

 
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NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 6:34:50 PM   
DicedT

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 11/2/2006
Status: offline 		If the NKVD regiments disband under 1.05 - I lost two regiments the first turn - who will garrison the Finnish border? That's 16 hexes. At this rate, by turn 10, I'll need 16 divisions to garrison them. The Soviets don't have a spare field army for border patrol.
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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 6:40:38 PM   
Cannonfodder


Posts: 1326
Joined: 10/22/2008
Status: offline 		Forts went down to 8 AP a piece to buy starting july I think. That should give you a bit of space.. You will need to move unready units and brigades to that frontier I am afraid.. It is more historical though...

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 7:11:53 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		You're going to need to put real units up there now.

I also think it is worth making a fighting retreat with 7. Army in Karelia at this point. Reinforce it with the brigades that arrive by Leningrad, and don't just run away to the Svir. Fight a delaying action to the Svir until you've got enough stuff to man the line, and by stuff I mean brigades. You don't want to waste divisions up there if possible.



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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 7:42:26 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

You're going to need to put real units up there now.

I also think it is worth making a fighting retreat with 7. Army in Karelia at this point. Reinforce it with the brigades that arrive by Leningrad, and don't just run away to the Svir. Fight a delaying action to the Svir until you've got enough stuff to man the line, and by stuff I mean brigades. You don't want to waste divisions up there if possible.




That's a good point, because the Northern End of Lake Ladoga you can cover with 4-5 units (you don't need much depth, because pocketing isn't an issue).

Down by the Svir, on the other hand, you need more like a dozen. And they have to be "real" units now.

Retreating will INCREASE the number of units you need to keep the Finns in check.


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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 7:50:52 PM   
DicedT

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 11/2/2006
Status: offline 		Why are you doing this? Are the Soviets not having a miserable enough time defending Leningrad?

Did someone say historical? So it's more historical for the Germans to conquer Leningrad in August '41,  in strict contradiction of Hitler's historical orders?

If you're concerned that the NKVD border regiments are being abused, then have a rule that they will disband - unless they are a Finnish border hex.

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 8:00:16 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Because people whined about the stupid border regiments, and now they have been effectively removed from the game.

I personally think this solution went a bit overboard, but meh. You just have to change things up a bit.

And I never relied on the regiments for border security anyways -- I expended them on the main front as speed bumps. Everybody should do this as well. There is zero point in using them on the Finnish border as they will disband, sooner rather than later. Within a half dozen turns or so they'll all be gone regardless of their map location. So use 'em or lose 'em.



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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 8:08:51 PM   
DicedT

 

Posts: 151
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Status: offline 		Having to waste 16 divisions on garrison duty - and in July '41 - is more than changing things a bit. 16 divisions could make quite a difference around Moscow.

But since everyone is so worried about being historical, why are the Finns advancing across the Svir before Leningrad is taken?

If you're taking away the border regiments, how about restricting the Finnish ability to ooze across the Svir so that even ZOCs don't stop them, and the Soviets have to garrison every hex?


< Message edited by DicedT -- 9/11/2011 8:10:39 PM >

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 8:13:44 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5761
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		Don't use divisions. Leningrad gets brigades as reinforcement fairly early on. And stall -- don't just run away to the Svir. You've got 7. Army up there already and it can slow things down considerably with a minimum of reinforcement.

It's not a game killer, really. Just an annoyance.

In any case, I think the metagame is shifting away from Leningrad now. Armament factories in the South are the new sexiness. The nerf to the factory multiplier has had the unanticipated consequence of making Leningrad easier to defend.

Eventually you can even use tank brigades to man the border. LOL.




< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 9/11/2011 8:17:18 PM >

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 8:27:26 PM   
Cannonfodder


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Status: offline 		Flavius, do you know what the soviets had up there facing the fins in 1941?

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 8:30:58 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		7. Army in Karelia, which was a fairly ordinary one, and parts of 23. Army on the Isthmus, though most of that was used in Leningrad proper.

Due to game abstractions you wind up having to use more than both of these had historically if you stick to divisions only.

Happily, the Soviet player doesn't have to do this. Rifle brigades will do the job just fine. Tank brigades are even better. (Yes, you read that correctly.)

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 8:45:02 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		I don't understand why it's a problem.

After all what's more historical: 14 NKVD regiments totalling 15,000 men holding the Entire Finnish front, or the equivalent of 12 divisions?

IRL, the Soviets knew the Finns probably wouldn't attack over those lines for political reasons, but they couldn't be 100% sure. They could have a screen of units, but they had to be real units, not border guards.

This is now exactly what the game is now

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 9:15:04 PM   
DicedT

 

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What's more historical? The Germans conducting the perfect blitzkrieg because they know the starting location of every Soviet unit? Or taking Leningrad because they know exactly how many the Soviets can deploy?

And why can't the Soviets just hold the border with ZOCs, so that 8 divisions can hold the line instead of 16, without the Finns oozing across the border and putting them out of supply?

Still waiting to hear an answer to the biggest question: wasn't the defense of Leningrad hard enough? Hasn't the city been routinely captured? Those 7th Independent Army divisions are now delaying the Finns when they could be saving Leningrad from the ahistorical German assault.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I don't understand why it's a problem.

After all what's more historical: 14 NKVD regiments totalling 15,000 men holding the Entire Finnish front, or the equivalent of 12 divisions?

IRL, the Soviets knew the Finns probably wouldn't attack over those lines for political reasons, but they couldn't be 100% sure. They could have a screen of units, but they had to be real units, not border guards.

This is now exactly what the game is now


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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 9:30:42 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5761
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Status: offline 		The primary reason the defense of Leningrad has been so difficult is because most German players have had an incredible hard on for the place and commit forces to taking it wildly in excess of what happened historically. Also because early on in the game people developed this incredible fear of the blizzard and a corresponding fondness for the Finnish army and, in my estimation, have wildly and disproportionately overestimated the intrinsic importance of the place.

Of course they are taking it when they are throwing in an extra panzer group and an extra army or two. They can hardly fail to do so.

That problem has been indirectly addressed by the armament multiplier nerf. They simply won't want Leningrad quite so badly now. And if they do...so much the better for you as the Soviet. I myself am deliberately running down my defenses in Leningrad to the bare minimum nowadays and daring the German to take it. Tempt the bastards with it. Wave the Red Cape at the teutonic bull.



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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 9:31:49 PM   
Baelfiin

 

Posts: 1252
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Status: offline 		just build your 8 point fort units and call it a day.... those NKVD were way overpowered in game terms anyway.

Or better yet suck the finns south of the no attack lines and attrit them to death.


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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 9:35:54 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5761
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		APs are far too important to be wasted on fortifications on the Finnish border.

Brigades, people, brigades. Tank brigades especially. I have finally found a good use for them besides making tank corps!



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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 9:52:40 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Because people whined about the stupid border regiments, and now they have been effectively removed from the game.

I personally think this solution went a bit overboard, but meh. You just have to change things up a bit.

And I never relied on the regiments for border security anyways -- I expended them on the main front as speed bumps. Everybody should do this as well. There is zero point in using them on the Finnish border as they will disband, sooner rather than later. Within a half dozen turns or so they'll all be gone regardless of their map location. So use 'em or lose 'em.




Well, that's precisely why people whined.
If everyone would have used them on the Finish border nobody would have cared

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 9:55:27 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5761
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Status: offline 		Nah, people whined about them on the Finnish border before Sovs caught on to using them as speed bumps.

Basically people have been whining about them for one reason or another from the getgo: they wanted to see the things go away, period.

And now they have.

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 10:01:53 PM   
glvaca

 

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Status: offline 		Well, whatever it was. You can just as well use cav or Para's. They're just as annoying.

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 10:05:24 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I use the paras promiscuously for this role, yes. I'm willing to lose all of them in 1941 if need be. Whatever survives going into mud gets pulled back to the rear, but if that number is zero, so be it.

Cavalry you need to be a bit more careful about. Suckers are insanely useful. You do want those cavalry corps going into December, after all, and for the rest of the war, they aren't quite as expendable.



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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 10:10:35 PM   
glvaca

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I use the paras promiscuously for this role, yes. I'm willing to lose all of them in 1941 if need be. Whatever survives going into mud gets pulled back to the rear, but if that number is zero, so be it.

Cavalry you need to be a bit more careful about. Suckers are insanely useful. You do want those cavalry corps going into December, after all, and for the rest of the war, they aren't quite as expendable.




No arguement on both counts.
So let's get rid of them?

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/11/2011 11:07:26 PM   
PeeDeeAitch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
Tank brigades especially. I have finally found a good use for them besides making tank corps!


You knew that, eventually, some use would be found.

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/12/2011 12:11:34 AM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		Don't forget to set the TOE of the units garding the border to 50% so you don't waste manpower (unless you're using the area to rest and refit units you expect to rotate out later). Brigades are the unit of choice for holding the border.

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/12/2011 1:42:52 AM   
Marquo


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Status: online 		Flaviusx

Beleive it or not the Tank Brigades can build forts at a good clip if within range of an HQ with RR construction brigades. I load up Stavka with them, and then the tankers do what they do best - build forts.

Marquo

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/12/2011 3:03:20 AM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1878
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Status: offline 		Have to be careful on setting ToE's down on the Finnish border because of the attrition. I very nearly lost containment when I started having border units becoming depleted and being displaced by the Finnish units at the border. It takes awhile for them to get this low, but it will happen eventually. I had to rush a bunch of brigades up there. Naval brigades were the unit of choice for now.

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/12/2011 3:10:45 AM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		Supply is very sketchy up there, yeah, and attrition will eat away at units here more than elsewhere as a result.



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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/12/2011 3:16:59 AM   
Baelfiin

 

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Status: offline 		Is there enough time to get tank brigades to the border before the finns roll up on it? I try to get everyting worthwhile out of the area where the Finns can attack it. Tank brigades would be nice, but it seems like would be tricky getting them where they need to be before the Finns get there

Its pricey for sure to build forts on the border, but early on I would rather have every mobile unit I can generating zocs in front of moscow and stalino.

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/12/2011 3:27:12 AM   
Ketza


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Because people whined about the stupid border regiments, and now they have been effectively removed from the game.

I personally think this solution went a bit overboard, but meh. You just have to change things up a bit.

And I never relied on the regiments for border security anyways -- I expended them on the main front as speed bumps. Everybody should do this as well. There is zero point in using them on the Finnish border as they will disband, sooner rather than later. Within a half dozen turns or so they'll all be gone regardless of their map location. So use 'em or lose 'em.




People have been pointing out what they feel are issues with the game. Why must it be called whining?





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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/12/2011 3:41:41 AM   
gradenko_2000

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

Is there enough time to get tank brigades to the border before the finns roll up on it? I try to get everyting worthwhile out of the area where the Finns can attack it. Tank brigades would be nice, but it seems like would be tricky getting them where they need to be before the Finns get there

Its pricey for sure to build forts on the border, but early on I would rather have every mobile unit I can generating zocs in front of moscow and stalino.

From my 1.05 Road to Leningrad playthrough, Tank Brigades don't appear in time. I initially held the line with about half Rifle/Naval Brigades and half regular Rifle Divisions since there weren't enough Brigades to do it, then I would slowly pull out the Divisions one by one as I got more Brigades to replace them with on the line.

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/12/2011 5:06:08 AM   
Klydon

 

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Status: offline 		Yeah, a good Finn will be at the border before tank brigades will appear. It could also depend on if a Russian wishes to try to suck them across the border or not.

I would likely try to get the units you want to withdraw later more towards the western side while moving the units you plan on leaving towards the eastern side since it is so hard to move units back and forth.

I would also consider putting an army command up there (attached to Stavka) with an ok admin wise commander. No need to have someone good up there. Note: even if you have a army command up there, your units are still going to suffer attrition faster than replacements will roll in and they will eventually deplete unless you can provide some relief troops and back them off for a couple of turns to refit before putting them back on the line.

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RE: NKVD and Finnish border - 9/14/2011 10:22:02 AM   
majeloz

 

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From: Australia
Status: offline 		Yay - love the debate and, while I am not plunging into 1.05 just yet (I remember the buggy 1.04 teen upgrades), I can't wait to ...start learning to play the game all over again :) (yes, serious, it keeps it fun).

BTW, the point about Leningrad is not 'you have to take it' (though that really helps if you can do it around T10), but you have to threaten to take it and then decide what to do....


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