You have a lot of praise for the OCS supply system but it's not all sunshine and glory. How about having so little supply that you can't even fuel your panzer divisions for turns (3d per turn) on end. While foot can just march along when in trace supply which is also very easy to have. not very historical either.
The big difference with OCS and why, it plays so fluently versus more stagnation in WitE, is the map scale difference. For each WitE hex, you have 4 OCS hexes (15 miles versus 5km). Its just not possible to have a coherent line from the top down everywhere. To aggrevate this you are at very simular unit "order" lots of Div. and only the panzer and tank/mech and some other formations are slit in regiments and battalions. Add to this that the maximum stack per hex is slightly higher (not counting Rifle Corps) than WitE and defending is much harder in OCS.
I really don't think you can compare the two. I'd certainly buy an Empire eddition of WitE with 4 hexes per hex now
Regarding the 1:2 rule, here too the scale of the game is a bit too high to accurately follow history. While the Germans certainly at times retreated before an assault of the Sovs. I haven't found any example that Panzer divisions were thrown back 15miles by a Russian attack up until September 1941. Ther eis one counter offensive in late August when Konevs 19th Army pushed back and mauled serveral Germans divisions, and beat back a counter attack by the 7th Panzer, even then they advanced only a few km.
My hunch is that perhaps it would have been better to modify the combat engine to produce more losses for the Germans at lower odds, but without retreats. But I'm certainly not complaining as things are changed now.
Let's see how it goes. About to go into one Winter with the Russians and one with the Germans, will be interesting to see it both ways.
glvaca, I've tried to follow what you're saying with regard to OCS, but have failed dismally. Suffice to make the following points-
Your comparison of the scale is not right. WitE is 10 miles per hex, not 15. OCS is either 2.5 miles or 5 miles per hex, depending on the game. I think the east front map groups in question are 5 miles per hex, but I could be wrong. Either way, the question mark is over whether you have exaggerated the difference by three times or six times, not whether or not you exaggerate. Given your argument rests on this difference, whatever it might be, I can't accept it, Sorry.
You say I have a lot of praise for OCS supply system, clearly implying that it is not warranted. Read what I actually say please. "...it's a board game with, given the medium, a pretty good logistics system. It has all the disadvantages of board games but it works pretty well..." and "The three types of [WitE] supply are, potentially, a better logistics solution than the two types in OCS."
The value of the OCS system is precisely what you dislike, namely that if you don't stockpile your war materials but instead play like some arcade shooter, you will run into a brick wall. I love it, it's real. It's maybe about as accurate a simulation a boardgame might achieve while maintaining a playable game. It reflects not only operational reality but one of the principle reasons Germany went to war in the first place- lack of raw materials.
IT was late (for me) when I wrote this so perhaps I wasn't very clear
What I'm saying there is a big difference in hex size. Whether 5km or 5miles (East front Case Blue) versus 15 miles, it still is a very subtantial difference. I can't check as I don't have the rules handy but you'll agree, 1:3 or 1:4 does not really matter to make the point. This difference with largly the same unit sizes, an absurd cost for digging in and the high mobility of the panzer units in relation to leg, all thogether conspire to make the OCS gaming system very fluid. Perhaps to fluid. Forgot to add that the pahse system (movement and exploitation/reaction) also contributes a lot.
I also love OCS. I should have made this clear in this post. But it is not unreservedly. The supply system is the best in any boardgame I've personally played but it also has it's quirks and I was trying to point these out.
1. Trace supply is easy to have. Which would translate to Supplies in game.
2. Supply for fueling and combat is harsh, especially in case Blue for the Germans. They lead to situations where your panzer divisions are ofen in the rear not being able to move while the infantry happily marches on. Likewise, using arty as the German is a luxery you really can't afford much. I don't find either very realistic WRT how the Germans operated historically.
3. Moving supply forward and stockpiling is great. And I'm very much on your side when you make a point about this. However, I think WitE handles this, as is, by forcing you to either not move, HQ-up, fly in supply and/or stay close to the rail road for maximum stockpiling. It is abstracted and I feel it works well.
I know how to play OCS after spending almost 2 years with Case Blue you get the idea. I absolutely love the combat suprise system and many other things of OCS but to go as far as prefering the OCS supply system to the WitE supply sytem, that is a step I personally won't take.