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RE: 500th Turn

 
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RE: 500th Turn - 4/1/2013 11:32:00 AM   
JocMeister

 

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Ouch on the P38s. How many engineers do you have at the base?

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1201
RE: 500th Turn - 4/2/2013 12:19:44 AM   
DOCUP


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30th Apr

Carriers unknown

China
Bombed

Burma
Koniu is sending 4 Es and 4 DDs as a fast transport TF to Ramree.  I am going to try and intercept this force at some point.

TI
Joc: 79 Engs and 17 Eng vehicles.  AF damage is down to 62.  I have an xAK loading one sqd of P38s now.  Koniu hasn't tried to bomb TI anymore and I don't see anymore bombers in the area.  I wonder why he hasn't bombed my AFs.  The planes were sitting ducks.

Big E will come out of the yards tomorrow.  Lady Lex is moving slowly now.  Her and New Mexico will be heading to the WC to finish repairs.  This TF has many ships damaged some will stay around Oz and be repaired.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 1202
RE: 500th Turn - 4/5/2013 6:20:44 AM   
DOCUP


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3rd May

Carriers unknown

China
Bombed

TI
Nav bombarded again.  Closed the AF down but it should be open tomorrow.  I need to stop this.  I think I know where he is coming from now.  So I might be able to do something about it.

Nothing else has really happend.  Got go to bed now.

Oh yea Jap DD ran into 2 Fletchers east of Makin. We scored a hit and so did he.

< Message edited by DOCUP -- 4/5/2013 6:27:37 AM >

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1203
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 1:56:20 AM   
zuluhour


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I may have some time on my hands now as the emporer is doing some head scratching after the engagement below (DaBabes). Joe, you are at my favorite time of the game as Allies and I look forward to checking in more frequently ( Ive had to read as many as 6 pages backwards) and providing some support for the home team.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 18, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Milne Bay at 101,134, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Shell hits 2
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Nowaki, Shell hits 3
DD Hagikaze, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CL Concord
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
DD Lardner, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Le Triomphant

Improved night sighting under 82% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 82% moonlight: 12,000 yards

I posted this combat report here on purpose to ellicit any comments. Terry is very upset with results and may discontinue the game.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1204
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 3:18:52 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I may have some time on my hands now as the emporer is doing some head scratching after the engagement below (DaBabes). Joe, you are at my favorite time of the game as Allies and I look forward to checking in more frequently ( Ive had to read as many as 6 pages backwards) and providing some support for the home team.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 18, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Milne Bay at 101,134, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Shell hits 2
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Nowaki, Shell hits 3
DD Hagikaze, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CL Concord
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
DD Lardner, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Le Triomphant

Improved night sighting under 82% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 82% moonlight: 12,000 yards

I posted this combat report here on purpose to ellicit any comments. Terry is very upset with results and may discontinue the game.


What's to be upset about? Early on the Japanese get night battle surprise every time and do this to the Allies over and over. Now the Allies have radar and commanders who know how to use it, so they get surprise about half the time. Radar fire control delivers the hits and once a ship is on fire it is easy to hit again. Furutaka was a half-pint CA and IRL was hammered by Helena and a sister ship at Cape Esperance. Nothing unusual there. Haruna is too slow moving and too slow firing to get into the battle with 32+ knot vessels.
If Zuluhour's opponent is upset at this minor reversal, how will he stick it out through the clubbing to come?

_____________________________

I have not yet begun to fight! OTOH I have not yet begun to flee. Hmmmmm - choices, choices -always with the choices.

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 1205
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 3:52:27 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I may have some time on my hands now as the emporer is doing some head scratching after the engagement below (DaBabes). Joe, you are at my favorite time of the game as Allies and I look forward to checking in more frequently ( Ive had to read as many as 6 pages backwards) and providing some support for the home team.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 18, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Milne Bay at 101,134, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Shell hits 2
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Nowaki, Shell hits 3
DD Hagikaze, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CL Concord
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
DD Lardner, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Le Triomphant

Improved night sighting under 82% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 82% moonlight: 12,000 yards

I posted this combat report here on purpose to ellicit any comments. Terry is very upset with results and may discontinue the game.


I already expressed my view regarding such an attitude in post #1046 in your previous AAR:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2884724&mpage=35

I see nothing here to change my view. No suggestion of a bug rearing its ugly head. Merely an outcome not palatable to the Japanese player.

It does take a very strong personality to play the Japanese side in any game which makes a genuine attempt to capture the respective capabilities, strengths and weaknesses of the combatants in WWII.

Playing against the AI it doesn't matter too much if the Japanese player lacks the internal fortitude to cope with setbacks. They can always redo turns or even restart, and no one will complain. Against a human Allied player, that approach is totally unacceptable. The same applies to an Allied human player who can't cope with the early defeats. The difference though is that most Allied players are buoyed by the thought that eventually they will receive the assets to reverse the results whereas too many Japanese players are drawn to playing that side because they want to blow things up in their favour and dislike being on the defensive.

Alfred

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 1206
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 4:07:43 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


I already expressed my view regarding such an attitude in post #1046 in your previous AAR:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2884724&mpage=35

I see nothing here to change my view. No suggestion of a bug rearing its ugly head. Merely an outcome not palatable to the Japanese player.

It does take a very strong personality to play the Japanese side in any game which makes a genuine attempt to capture the respective capabilities, strengths and weaknesses of the combatants in WWII.

Playing against the AI it doesn't matter too much if the Japanese player lacks the internal fortitude to cope with setbacks. They can always redo turns or even restart, and no one will complain. Against a human Allied player, that approach is totally unacceptable. The same applies to an Allied human player who can't cope with the early defeats. The difference though is that most Allied players are buoyed by the thought that eventually they will receive the assets to reverse the results whereas too many Japanese players are drawn to playing that side because they want to blow things up in their favour and dislike being on the defensive.

Alfred

Amen, Alfred. For an exception, Greyjoy's spirited defence of his Japanese perimeter is supremely entertaining and mature!

_____________________________

I have not yet begun to fight! OTOH I have not yet begun to flee. Hmmmmm - choices, choices -always with the choices.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 1207
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 6:17:05 AM   
thinz2

 

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I'd like to add a bit more to this story beyond what zuluhour has laid out. In our "daBabes" game IJN surface forces have underperformed from the outset. In July 42 a task force built around a 21 knot Royal Sovereign class battleship intercepted and disabled Zuikaku, in daylight no less, leaving her to be sunk by a small air attack layer that day. The carriers were screened by 4 CAs, a CL and half a dozen destroyers. Even my honourable opponent commented at the time that the result was almost impossible to rationalize.

In a series of surface actions since then the IJN has been virtually useless in action against allied warships. The one quoted in zuluhour's post is merely the latest. As zuluhour himself has noted in our communications, clouds of long-lances get fired but hits are never obtained. I am sure that the Allies have had high naval skill rated commanders in their TFs, but so have the Japanese, usually Tanaka.

These results did not occur in our first game, in which we used michealm's mod of the latest Matrix release. I am left wondering if the combat modifications in "daBabes" have anything to do with all this.

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 1208
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 7:11:25 AM   
JocMeister

 

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BB! Great to see you back! I was quite worried!



quote:

ORIGINAL: zuluhour

I may have some time on my hands now as the emporer is doing some head scratching after the engagement below (DaBabes). Joe, you are at my favorite time of the game as Allies and I look forward to checking in more frequently ( Ive had to read as many as 6 pages backwards) and providing some support for the home team.


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 18, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Night Time Surface Combat, near Milne Bay at 101,134, Range 8,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
BB Haruna, Shell hits 2
CA Furutaka, Shell hits 14, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Abukuma, Shell hits 1, on fire
DD Nowaki, Shell hits 3
DD Hagikaze, Shell hits 6, on fire, heavy damage

Allied Ships
CL Concord
CL Helena, Shell hits 1
DD Lardner, Shell hits 3, on fire
DD Le Triomphant

Improved night sighting under 82% moonlight
Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 82% moonlight: 12,000 yards

I posted this combat report here on purpose to ellicit any comments. Terry is very upset with results and may discontinue the game.


Uhm, quitting the game because of 1 battle seems a bit drastic.. If this is something that you opponent can´t live with I doubt he will stay on for long. Once Fletchers arrive it seems not much can be done by the IJN. On several occasions in my game small TFs of Fletchers have chased away both BB TFs and CA TFs. If he can´t stomach a single small defeat in late 42 I doubt he will stomach playing the Japanese side in 43 and onward.

Sorry if it sounds harsh. But make sure your opponent is in for the long run and doesn´t quit the first time things start to get tough. I would be thoroughly mad if I invested 1-2 years in a game only to have my opponent quit as soon as things started getting fun for the allies.

(in reply to thinz2)
Post #: 1209
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 7:20:21 AM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thinz2

I'd like to add a bit more to this story beyond what zuluhour has laid out. In our "daBabes" game IJN surface forces have underperformed from the outset. In July 42 a task force built around a 21 knot Royal Sovereign class battleship intercepted and disabled Zuikaku, in daylight no less, leaving her to be sunk by a small air attack layer that day. The carriers were screened by 4 CAs, a CL and half a dozen destroyers. Even my honourable opponent commented at the time that the result was almost impossible to rationalize.

In a series of surface actions since then the IJN has been virtually useless in action against allied warships. The one quoted in zuluhour's post is merely the latest. As zuluhour himself has noted in our communications, clouds of long-lances get fired but hits are never obtained. I am sure that the Allies have had high naval skill rated commanders in their TFs, but so have the Japanese, usually Tanaka.

These results did not occur in our first game, in which we used michealm's mod of the latest Matrix release. I am left wondering if the combat modifications in "daBabes" have anything to do with all this.

This puts a different light on the situation - it isn't just one battle going badly but the whole surface combat part of the game. Can anyone else who has played that mod comment?

_____________________________

I have not yet begun to fight! OTOH I have not yet begun to flee. Hmmmmm - choices, choices -always with the choices.

(in reply to thinz2)
Post #: 1210
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 7:31:58 AM   
JocMeister

 

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From: Sweden
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thinz2

I'd like to add a bit more to this story beyond what zuluhour has laid out. In our "daBabes" game IJN surface forces have underperformed from the outset. In July 42 a task force built around a 21 knot Royal Sovereign class battleship intercepted and disabled Zuikaku, in daylight no less, leaving her to be sunk by a small air attack layer that day. The carriers were screened by 4 CAs, a CL and half a dozen destroyers. Even my honourable opponent commented at the time that the result was almost impossible to rationalize.

In a series of surface actions since then the IJN has been virtually useless in action against allied warships. The one quoted in zuluhour's post is merely the latest. As zuluhour himself has noted in our communications, clouds of long-lances get fired but hits are never obtained. I am sure that the Allies have had high naval skill rated commanders in their TFs, but so have the Japanese, usually Tanaka.

These results did not occur in our first game, in which we used michealm's mod of the latest Matrix release. I am left wondering if the combat modifications in "daBabes" have anything to do with all this.


My opponent (obvert) is playing another game where he lost the KB on the second day when the slow BBs from PH sortied and blew his CVs apart in a night surface battle. That was in a vanilla game. So I doubt it has something to do with DBB. Stuff like this just happens from time to time. I had a 8 Ships Fletcher TF chase away 2 BBs and 2 CAs just to get beat up by a CM and a DD a week later. Also a vanilla game.

If you have a hard time dealing with this you should probably switch to the Allied side. You won´t like 43 and onwards. Better to quit now then to have your opponent waste further time.

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Post #: 1211
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 9:36:38 AM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thinz2

... These results did not occur in our first game, in which we used michealm's mod of the latest Matrix release. I am left wondering if the combat modifications in "daBabes" have anything to do with all this.


Yes ... and no.

The "combat" modifications of DaBabes were not in your first game. These "combat" modifications were primarily in the area of ballistics. They therefore really impact on damage levels capable of being inflicted from "hits" rather than on whether a "hit" is achieved.

Independent of the DaBabes improvement program, through various official patches there have been modifications made to "hits" possibilities/impact. In general, these modifications have toned down "hits". These modifications were not present when you started off your first game and therefore as the Japanese player you gained the benefit of the more "intensive" combat.

Andy Mac has issued unofficial updated (with the DaBabes ballistics model) stock scenarios. So unless you elect to play an old scenario version together with an old exe file, the "issues" which you are speculating are due to DaBabes changes, will still haunt you.

As the DaBabes changes have been out for some time without your concerns being raised by others, I suggest that you perhaps should re-examine your own play to see if it has adapted appropriately. Alternatively if you think DaBabes is simply unplayable for Japan, and that is the logical thrust of your position, you should raise the issue in the modders sub-forum where the real experts on DaBabes reside.

Alfred

(in reply to thinz2)
Post #: 1212
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 12:07:36 PM   
zuluhour


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To quote the Capt'n: "Hory Crap!". The IJN commanders are a special breed. It's like playing chess without rooks that work.

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Post #: 1213
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 1:24:44 PM   
DOCUP


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Nice to see a discussion going on.   Not going to comment on Kurts post.  Don't have enough info and Alfred has posted some interesting info.  But due continue with the discussion if you want to. 

4th May

I think MKB is still in the IO near Diego.  Got sightings of Kates.

China
Bombed

Burma
We bomb Ramree island.

TI
Japs sweep then escorted bombing missions then unescorted bombers.  Koniu got it all right this time.  Sweeps took out my fighters and their was none by the time the bombers showed up.  He didn't do much to the AF but did shoot down a few planes about 20 or so.

Gearing up for an operation soon.

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 1214
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 1:26:18 PM   
DOCUP


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BBfanboy welcome back  and about damn time you came back.  Joc has been crying since you've been gone.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1215
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 1:45:37 PM   
CV60


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I'm extremely new player in WitP-AE, so my comments on the battle result should be taken in light of that inexperience. With that said, the combat result (1 IJN CA, 1 IJN DD heavily damaged vice hits on a US CL task force) while unusual, are not beyond the realm of historical possibility. In late 1942, the USN TF would have had radar, which theoretically nullified the IJN night fighting advantage. The range (8000yds) would have been long (although not unheard of) range for a nighttime manuvering/non-surprised target, further degrading another IJN advantage. Ultimately, IMHO, it comes down to crew and commander quality, as well as the chances of war. The Battle of Samar (US: 6 CVEs, 3 DD, 4 DE vs. 4 BB, 6 CA, 2 CL, 11 DD) should not have had the uneven results that it historically did. Likewise, at the Battle of Tassafaronga, (US: 5 CA, 4 DDs vs. 8 surprised IJN DDs loaded with supplies) should have had a different result. While I would not routinely expect the game result that was described above, it is within the bounds of historical possibility.

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 1216
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 1:59:02 PM   
zuluhour


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Back to Joe's game....sorry for hi-jack. Thanks for letting me post for the reaction, I thought the results were in the realm of possabilty.

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Post #: 1217
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 2:04:14 PM   
DOCUP


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Your welcome Kurt.  You guys can keep posting.  It only increases my numbers lol.  Brings something interesting to my boring game right now.

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Post #: 1218
RE: 500th Turn - 4/6/2013 2:10:35 PM   
zuluhour


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It would be interesting to see the Devs reveal the combat results table for WITP-AE, after the release of WAITP-AE2 in 2099 of course.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1219
RE: 500th Turn - 4/7/2013 1:09:13 PM   
DOCUP


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5th May

MKB south of Diego Garcia

China
Bombed

IO
MKB sink 3 xAKs and is 10 hex south of my CVEs and a SAG.  Both are heading to Diego to get some fuel and run for safety and not off map either.

Ramree Island
Looks like Koniu is going to try another fast transport TF.  I have a SAG waiting to run into Ramree tonite.

Truskott
Kates sink an xAK and KV.

Sydney
Jap sub sinks 2 xAKs.

Not much else right now

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 1220
RE: 500th Turn - 4/8/2013 10:47:20 PM   
DOCUP


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6-7th May

MKB IO somewhere

China
Bombed

Burma
We bomb Ramree.

Coco's
Bombed

Feurgeson Island
Georges and Tojos sweep.  Koniu loses 14 Tojos and 6 Georges to my 16 P 40Es, 4 Spit VC, and 4 Wildcats.  Not bad if I do say so myself.

TI
we only have 4 P38s left on the island.  Yay.

We hit an xAK and sink an E boat off the HI.


(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1221
RE: 500th Turn - 4/8/2013 11:48:40 PM   
zuluhour


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The fish begin to run true and the occasional boom.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1222
RE: 500th Turn - 4/11/2013 2:23:04 AM   
zuluhour


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Allrighty then, Just came back from a ride down to Fell's Point (B-More) had a few brews (unusual now adays) and it occured to me we could use a picture in here. So I'm going to throw a wobbly dart at my Smithsonian file and post one. (back to the top Joe)




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 4/11/2013 2:24:02 AM >

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Post #: 1223
RE: 500th Turn - 4/11/2013 10:08:20 PM   
DOCUP


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Zulu: Nice pic do you have any info on that pic.  You are right I need some pics.

8-9th May

MKB IO close to Diego

China
Bombed.  Pics later if I have time.

Burma
Ramree bombed

Terapo
Swept today but Koniu found nothing.

Christmast IO
We sighted a sub north of Christmas.  Yesterday 4 DDs attacked it then it was moved and we attacked and sunk I-29.  I needed to get rid of this guy.  He was spying on my movements.

Got some P47s today.

(in reply to zuluhour)
Post #: 1224
RE: 500th Turn - 4/11/2013 10:19:24 PM   
DOCUP


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Operation "About Dam Time"

Invasion of the Gilberts. I was planning on going after Tabiteuea first then Onotoa. But I think I should hit Onota first then Tabiteuea.

Tabiteuea: AF 4 Port 1

Onotoa: AF 1

Tarawa: Had fighters and bombers.

Subs are being postioned around the Gilberts, picket ships are in the process of being positioned also. More to follow time to eat.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1225
RE: 500th Turn - 4/12/2013 11:56:00 AM   
JocMeister

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Operation "About Dam Time"



Exciting! I´ll keep my fingers crossed for you. Are you going to do a prolonged landing or a "hit n run" one?

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1226
RE: 500th Turn - 4/12/2013 3:18:10 PM   
DOCUP


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Joc: I'm going to try for a hit and run

About Dam Time  continued

I've decided to go after Tabiteuea.  I'm shooting for around a 2 day unload time then running for the hills.  I think 2 IDs, Tank unit, 2 Combat ENGs, and a Naval BF should be able to take the island.

I'm pretty sure Koniu has some CVs around Truk, not for sure what ones.  I expect he would be in position to attack within 3 days or so of the TFs being spotted.  I will have around 310 fighters (144 Hellcats), 96 DBs, 66 TBs on my CVs.  Plus alot of surface fleet assets.

I will launch B 25s from Ndeni to hit the AF on D-1.  I am thinking of sending up a small SAG to bombard Tarawa also.  I am also thinking of sending a dummy invasion fleet at PM a few days before my real fleet is expected to be spotted.

(in reply to JocMeister)
Post #: 1227
RE: 500th Turn - 4/12/2013 3:52:19 PM   
DOCUP


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messed up look at next post

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Post #: 1228
RE: 500th Turn - 4/12/2013 3:52:56 PM   
DOCUP


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Burma:

I am looking at 2 options here. I am leaning towards option 1.

Reasons: I have a lot of Chinese to waste. If I can hold the beachhead I can bring in my IDs and other tank units from Shwebo to take Mandalay, which will give me a good supply line. I know monsoon season is coming but I am flying in a ton of supplies and it will only get better when the Commandos come online.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 1229
RE: 500th Turn - 4/12/2013 4:46:02 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP

Joc: I'm going to try for a hit and run

About Dam Time  continued

I've decided to go after Tabiteuea.  I'm shooting for around a 2 day unload time then running for the hills.  I think 2 IDs, Tank unit, 2 Combat ENGs, and a Naval BF should be able to take the island.

I'm pretty sure Koniu has some CVs around Truk, not for sure what ones.  I expect he would be in position to attack within 3 days or so of the TFs being spotted.  I will have around 310 fighters (144 Hellcats), 96 DBs, 66 TBs on my CVs.  Plus alot of surface fleet assets.

I will launch B 25s from Ndeni to hit the AF on D-1.  I am thinking of sending up a small SAG to bombard Tarawa also.  I am also thinking of sending a dummy invasion fleet at PM a few days before my real fleet is expected to be spotted.

That decoy invasion might pull KB closer to your real landing so that you only get one day to unload!

_____________________________

I have not yet begun to fight! OTOH I have not yet begun to flee. Hmmmmm - choices, choices -always with the choices.

(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 1230
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