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All Forums >> [Classic (Free) Games] >> Pacific War: The Matrix Edition >> Looking for an opponent Page: [1]
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Looking for an opponent - 9/5/2011 12:36:16 AM   
zeke99


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Prefer playing Japan, house rules
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RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/5/2011 6:01:12 PM   
bradk

 

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I have played Zeke99 twice and highly recommend him as an opponent.  Expect the toughest game you've ever played.  Zeke's opponents find out things about PW they never imagined.

(in reply to zeke99)
Post #: 2
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/5/2011 7:43:23 PM   
Admiral Balsey

 

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Would love to but I'll need a little help. As you can see, I'm green to this forum. Not green with the game though.

If you're interested, I need to know the drill for PBEM and a list of the house rules.

Bull

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Post #: 3
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/5/2011 7:57:46 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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From: Los Angeles
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There are no universally agreed upon House Rules -- the two opponents work them out between themselves. There are, however, some suggestions which have been widely adopted. Chief among these are that Atoll islands (terrain level 1) may not hold more than a division's worth of troops, and that shipping of Australian LCU's out of Australia/New Zealand/New Guinea should be limited. I also suggest there be a limit on how many Allied dive bombers squadrons may be equipped with the Vengeance bomber; its range of 5 makes it potent indeed.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to Admiral Balsey)
Post #: 4
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/5/2011 11:25:14 PM   
bradk

 

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According to Matrix documentation, the Vengeance is not supposed to be in the game at all.  Yet the factory remains.  Last few games I played with the Matrix Edition house rules said no Vengenace use.

The Vengeance has been a problem since the intial SSI version.  Way too powerful.  Grigsby fixed it in V 1.1 by making it a tac bomber.  Then Matrix brought it back as a dive bomber with performance based probably pretty much the same sources used by SSI, already proven to make it unrealistically powerful in the game.

I think its necessary to be willing to say at times that published performance data doesn't make sense and diregard it.  The Vengeance was a private venture aircraft, had to be sold, and, well, we've never known salesmen to over state anything. <G>

The horsepower is known since lots of other aircraft used the same engine, we can verify the claimed dimensions with photos, and pretty well estimate the weight from that.  Using the SBD and SB2C for comparison, claimed performance doesn't make sense.

Then we have the evaluations of those who had a chance to use it.  The Brits dumped the Vengeance in favor tac bombers that were already second line, line the Blenheim and Beaufort.  The Vengeace must really have been bad!

The USAAF bought some, and decided they were only suitable for us as target tugs.  The USN/USMC passed.  The last few were sold to Brazil.  You'd assume the Russians who were happy to have anything that flew would have been interested, but no go.

Similar problem with the P36/Hawk 75.  Costed at 99 to force the player to use aricraft modeled inferior to it, the P39, P40, Hurricane, F2A, and F4F.  Like the Vengeance, published P36 data should be disregarded.  It makes no sense that with 5 years additional development time, during a time of rapid improvements in aircraft, that no one could make a new fighter better than the P36.  And note that that those writing the checks selected the newer aircraft at $45,000 to $55,000 each when the P36 sold for $23,000.

Costing these aircraft at 99 to prevent production still results in a distortion in that there are still a few around initially.  When I made the revised scenario, I used the principle that aircraft considered by consensus obsolete by the people of the time had to be modeled as less effective  than their replacements, regardless of what was posted on the internet about their performance.


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Post #: 5
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/5/2011 11:27:26 PM   
bradk

 

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BTW, I'm halfway through my second PBEM game with the revised scenario.  Both of my opponents have made suggestions which will improve the next version, but the existing version overall works quite well.

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Post #: 6
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/5/2011 11:29:45 PM   
bradk

 

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Also for Captain Harlock, who previously mentioned this.  I was given an editor which is claimed to be able to change the kill multiplier date back to Jan 1944.  I haven't tested a game to see if it works though.

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Post #: 7
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/6/2011 12:19:45 AM   
Skipjack_


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I agree, the Vengence is way over-rated in PACWAR - but so is the ability of the IJN to launch a D-Day equivalent of a 5+ Divisions invasion anywhere  on the map - oh well, the price we pay to get an opponent on this forum.  At least I *hope* to save 5 British BBs after crossing swords with Last00 off Ceylon.  The Brit CVs were not so lucky - armoured flight decks are not much use against torpedoes.;)

** sorry for hijacking this thread **

< Message edited by Skipjack_ -- 9/6/2011 12:27:43 AM >

(in reply to bradk)
Post #: 8
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/6/2011 12:37:49 AM   
zeke99


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PM sent to Admiral Balsey

PAC House Rules
to keep it simple:
CV TF max. 10pts
US CV = 3pts
other CV + US CVL = 2pts
other CVL + CVE = 1pt
Max. TF AD 3000 pts
( the program counts small caliber AA MG / MC into TF total air defence value while this
guns could only protect the ship where installed due to the short range)
Landing TF max 1 Div ( eng do not count)
No landings @ Bataan & Singapore (coastal guns) until May 42
No landings on Japan before the Philippine bases are taken
No “ships in port” attacks on the convoy ports LA and Nagoya due to programs convoy
system. No landing before at least 1 neighbouring base is taken.
Japan: 1 Div has to stay in Indochina
UK : 8th Aus Div has to stay in Singapore (Churchill's order)
Air craft restrictions
Allied CVE can only use F4 fighters due to space limitations.
Venegance DB must not be produced. Became a super killer in that version.
P61 Black Widow does only night combat or NI.


< Message edited by zeke99 -- 9/6/2011 12:41:19 AM >

(in reply to Admiral Balsey)
Post #: 9
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/6/2011 12:40:02 AM   
Skipjack_


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Still the best pacific war game ever - I am a PACWAR addict - Welcome Adm Balsey!!!

(in reply to Skipjack_)
Post #: 10
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/6/2011 12:49:08 AM   
Admiral Balsey

 

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Thanks to both Capt. Harlock and bradk.

I had thought that there was a 'standard' set of house rules that could be revised to taste and agreed upon by the players?

I do agree, more or less, with the three points that the Capt. has mentioned. I would have some questions though. Such as:

-I had never really thought about one division per atoll. It makes a lot of sence. Can only one division worth of troups be used to invade an atoll?
-Can the Australians (that arrive attached to SW Pacific) and New Zealanders (to South Pacific) be used out side of the mentioned areas.
-I completely agree with the Vengeance rule as stated but would give the British the option to use them in India and Burma (historical).

I think that my biggest problem with the game is the way that the pools can be used to double the number of MCSs and TKs. It seams a little unrealistic that 150 MCSs can enter port in Fiji one turn and head home to LA the next turn with 3. I guess that all is fair because both side can do it. If I remember correctly the first SSI version of the game didn't have the pool feature.

(in reply to bradk)
Post #: 11
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/6/2011 2:05:24 AM   
bradk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Balsey

I had thought that there was a 'standard' set of house rules that could be revised to taste and agreed upon by the players?




There's a set with the Matrix download. However, any set of house rules is going to be highly influenced by a person's strategy and the people he has played. For example, the person who wrote the rules with the download obviously was unhappy when a Allied opponent attacked Japan and ignored the Philippines. And when an IJ opponent let the IJA run the bases in the Central Pacific. People with different strategies and opponents with different strategies would have other hot issues to include in their rules.

Even when goals are the same, implementation varies. For example, people have used carrier points to limit TF sizes since back in the 90s on the PW mailing list. But someone I played recently suggested a chart. I experimented with various TF configurations and found out the chart indeed does achieve the goal more accurately and fairly.

(Space reserved for person who suggested this to claim credit.)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Balsey
-I had never really thought about one division per atoll. It makes a lot of sence. Can only one division worth of troups be used to invade an atoll?



Typical rules allow unlimited LCUs to attack BUT a max of one Division or equivalent per TF. So what happens if the atoll is reasonably well defended and there are no defensive command failures is the first Division lands and gets beat up real bad, the second Division lands and takes the atoll.

Landing on an atoll requires some detailed logisitics because 1) you should plan on at least two Divisions to take a well defended atoll, 2) you can't have more than one Division on the base you're staging from, meaning you're going to have to stage from at least two bases, and 3) you're often not going to hold bases within 10 hexes of an atoll meaning that with the C2 MCS's 10 knot speed, they're two turns away from the staging base.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Balsey
-Can the Australians (that arrive attached to SW Pacific) and New Zealanders (to South Pacific) be used out side of the mentioned areas.


Australia has been a problem since SSI. SSI locked most LCUs in Australia to require defense of Australia. A couple LCUs were released in 1943 and a couple later on. But locked LCUs, there to require the defense of Australia couldn't do it well, because they pay 10x the number of prep points to activate.

Matrix unlocked the LCUs so they would defend better, but then that requires house rules to keep them in Australia. The rules I use say if an LCU activates in Australia attached to CMF, it must stay there. Several LCUs activate in Australia attached to SW Pac, so a little book keeping is requires to follow the rules, especially when Aus bases are changed to SW Pac.

As Captain Harlock says, by the time most rules allow unrestricted use of Aus LCUs, they aren't needed in a typical game anyway. I figure mop up in New Guinea or the Solomons is a good use, but usually don't bother if I don't need the control points.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Balsey
-I completely agree with the Vengeance rule as stated but would give the British the option to use them in India and Burma (historical).


There are no airgroups of the British or associates that can use them. No dive bomber groups. Matrix switched airgroups that historically used the Vengeance for a few months to tac bombers.

The only way to do this is to ship some USMC SBD groups to Burma/India and switch them to use the Vengeance. Assuming your opponent agrees to that.

Also, very important, in PBEM you're not going to get the opportunity to change non-US airgroups to US aircraft (except the F4F) early in the game. Remember against AI, it will give you a pane "Aus airgroup flying the Hurricane II B can upgrade to the P40 Yes/No". You DON'T get this in a PBEM game.

I put a fix for this in the revised scenario I created by making export versions of the P39, P40, and B26 that could be accessed by non-US airgroups. The method, however, puts these aircraft on the USMC upgrade menu and requires a rule that the USMC cannot fly these aircraft. (You know, the "Not Invented Here" attitude. <G>)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Balsey
I think that my biggest problem with the game is the way that the pools can be used to double the number of MCSs and TKs. It seams a little unrealistic that 150 MCSs can enter port in Fiji one turn and head home to LA the next turn with 3. I guess that all is fair because both side can do it. If I remember correctly the first SSI version of the game didn't have the pool feature.



The convoy system is abstracted. Important points are 1) I believe the number of MCS and TKs is under represented from historical and 2) its a fact the convoy system does not use all the ships available even if need for supply or oil is critical. For example, the convoy system will typically use 50% to 60% of the IJN TKs per turn.

Suggest you take a few hours to play against AI with the house rules. Just start an AI/AI game and let it run until the date is what you need to try some things, change it to human/AI. Atoll invasions and creating TFs under the flak limit are important things to check.

Flak limit doesn't affect IJN much, but has a huge effect on USN. Early on, you'll be looking for DDs with high flak ratings to put in air combat TFs. Later on, when every ship gets flak increases, you'll be looking for low flak rated DDs for air combat TFs.

(in reply to Admiral Balsey)
Post #: 12
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/6/2011 9:24:19 PM   
bradk

 

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Aus, NZ, Dut LCUs

Eng LCUs excluded
Dut LCUs attachd to ABDA excluded



Attached to CMF

Aus 1st Inf Div Turn 1
Aus 2nd Inf Div Turn 1
Aus 3rd Inf Div Turn 1
Aus 4th Inf Div Turn 1
Aus 1st Mot Bri Turn 1
Aus 1st Cav Bri Turn 1
Aus 3rd Inf Bri Turn 1
Aus 7th Inf Bri Turn 1
AUs 11th Inf Bri Turn 1
Aus 13th Inf Bri Turn 1
Aus 23rd Inf Bri Turn 1
Aus 29th Inf Bri Turn 1
Aus 1st Mot Bri Turn 1
Aus 6th Cav Bri Turn 1
Aus 3rd Tank Bri Turn 42
Aus 4th Armored Bri Turn 57

NZ 1st Inf Bri Turn 1
NZ 8th Inf Bri Turn 1

Dut RIMa P-NC Reg Turn 1 In New Caledonia



Attached to SW Pac

Aus 1st Armored Bri Turn 1
Aus 30th Inf Bri Turn 4
Aus 14th Inf Bri Turn 21
Aus 14th Inf Bri Turn 21
Aus 7th Inf Div Turn 22
Aus 6th Inf Div Turn 40
Aus 5th Inf Div Turn 57
Aus 9th Inf Div Turn 57
Aus 11th Inf Div Turn 57

Dut 1re KM Reg Turn 123 Activates in Aus



Attached to ABDA

Aus Gullforce Bat Turn 1
Aus Sprwforce Bat Turn 1
Aus Blackforce Reg Turn 4 Activates in Aus



Attached to SEAC

Aus 8th Inf Div Turn 1 Singapore

(in reply to bradk)
Post #: 13
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/7/2011 5:45:50 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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From: Los Angeles
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quote:

There's a set with the Matrix download.


It looks to me as if the House Rules have been dropped from the latest download. I've therefore taken the liberty of turning my copy into a text file and posting it here. Note that this does *not* imply that I agree with the "Matrix" house rules: some of them appear to be obsolete with the latest OBC's, and I strongly disagree with having to leave aircraft production on Computer Control.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to bradk)
Post #: 14
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/7/2011 6:29:51 PM   
bradk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

There's a set with the Matrix download.


It looks to me as if the House Rules have been dropped from the latest download. I've therefore taken the liberty of turning my copy into a text file and posting it here. Note that this does *not* imply that I agree with the "Matrix" house rules: some of them appear to be obsolete with the latest OBC's, and I strongly disagree with having to leave aircraft production on Computer Control.



I agree some are obsolete. I understand the basis for the requirement to leave produciton on computer control though. Its designed for AI, which has no feedback loop, and under human control, well, the supply of aircraft becomes functionally infinite.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 15
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/7/2011 6:31:24 PM   
bradk

 

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There's a constant battle in house rules between simplicity and thoroughness. Some simplicity is introduced by program resrictions, for example, restricted HQs. But there are often disadvantages to program restrictions, for example, SSI locking the ANZAC LCUs to make them stay in Aus. But locked, the were ineffective at defending Aus.

So the answer to that has to be no program restriction, but a rule making them stay for a time, which can be complicated. I posted a list, but a house rule requiring those LCUs attached to CMF to stay in Aus suddenly introduces a bookkeeping reuquirement for both players.

< Message edited by bradk -- 9/7/2011 6:34:33 PM >

(in reply to bradk)
Post #: 16
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/13/2011 2:45:46 AM   
Capt. Harlock


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One other possible House Rule: due to their high maintenance (guns and crew), battleships may not be sent out on Surface Combat or Bombardment missions two turns in a row. They may, however, remain at a friendly port to defend it.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to bradk)
Post #: 17
RE: Looking for an opponent - 9/13/2011 4:18:09 PM   
bradk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

One other possible House Rule: due to their high maintenance (guns and crew), battleships may not be sent out on Surface Combat or Bombardment missions two turns in a row. They may, however, remain at a friendly port to defend it.


Its not only BBs. Ability to use all types of forces mutliple consecutive turns in offensive operations is unrealistic.

At one point there was a discussion either here or on the old PW mailing list about scheduled withdrawals (by agreement) of large ships or refit and a requirement that LCUs that had been in heavy combat for a time could not be used offensively for several turns. I don't recall any proposal concerning airgroups.

Comprehensively addressing down time issues introduces a lot of complication into the game plus book keeping requirements. Plus we know that ships, ready or not, were often used if the situation was critical, for example, Prince of Wales being sent on the Bismarck chase with a green crew and civilian workers on board still working on the ship. So what's realistic is situation dependent and its difficult to write a rule for that.

A rule that major ships with 20+ damage (showing flame) cannot be used offensively would be a simple rule and have some effect, as many players use ships with significant damage.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 18
RE: Looking for an opponent - 10/25/2011 9:44:47 AM   
Van Van


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reading the rules.it make game like historical book   ð-ð

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Post #: 19
RE: Looking for an opponent - 10/28/2011 10:09:14 PM   
bradk

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Van Van

reading the rules.it make game like historical book   ð-ð


Many of the rules have resulted from the game not responding well at the extremes. Others have resulted from attempts at gamey play.

Many people have tried short and simple rules. I suppose they work well in two situations: Both players play fairly close to historical and have succeses and failures close to historical, or both players want a gamey free for all.

However, even in games reasonably close to historical, players often use more forces than historical, and inflict, and sometimes incur, more losses than historical.

(in reply to Van Van)
Post #: 20
RE: Looking for an opponent - 11/5/2011 8:35:58 AM   
zeke99


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quote:

reading the rules.it make game like historical book


Wrong impression, with these rules you get a fun game with all possibilities, even a Jap victory

(in reply to bradk)
Post #: 21
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