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Supply Rules Query - 9/4/2011 3:14:37 PM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

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I have been wondering if the supply value of a hex is calculated in the same manner and using the same values as the original WITP. The numbers are not documented in the current manual, yet part of the text of the two manuals are identical which implies but does not guarantee that they are.

The original game lists in rule 14.3 Ground Unit Supply:

When tracing a supply path for movement of ground units or overland movement of supplies, a
supply value is generated. This is determined by tracing a path from the base transferring
supplies or the ground unit moving to the destination. This supply value determines whether the
move is legal, and how much of the supplies are used up during the move. The supply value of a
move is calculated by subtracting the following from 100 (900 if a ground unit move):
􀂃 2 for each hex moved along a rail/highway
􀂃 5 for each hex moved along a road
􀂃 25 for each hex moved along a trail
􀂃 50 for each hex moved cross country

However, unlike WITP we now have the concept of controlled hex sides. This immediately begs the question whether supply must be transported/traced through a controlled hex side.

Let us set up the next few questions with the following definitions.

1. The Chinese cities marked with yellow rectangles are the only locations with supplies stockpiled.
2. Supply operates in AE exactly the same as detailed for WITP above. (An assumption I hope will hold.)

Then in the current position:

A1. All Chinese units circled in blue are currently out of supply. By this I mean that they cannot receive fresh supplies from the supply sources.

A2. Assuming each of these units have sufficient supplies in their own inventory, they could move to the locations marked by the blue arrows and then be able to receive more supplies. The costs of this would be (starting on the left and going clockwise) 50, 2, 100 units respectively.

Well, there is some room for error in this latter assertion due to the new hex side ownership rule that now exists.

The southern most route of the left hand Chinese unit actually enters a hex containing a Japanese unit. Since the Chinese unit is entering from the west the north west and north east hex sides are still controlled by the Japanese. The question now is: if this Chinese unit had actually entered this hex, would a non-zero supply value exist in this hex such that it may be resupplied?


This now leads on to the second uncertainty for me.

Suppose now the Japanese unit circled in pink advances to attack the Chinese unit circled in pink. Suppose also that the Chinese unit loses the upcoming battle and is required to retreat. The Chinese units current position clearly shows that it is currently not able to receive supply. The available retreat routes where positive values can be calculated are marked in purple. The supply values in clockwise order are 69, 46, 21.

The question is will a retreating unit move such as to maximise it access to supply, or will any hex of the three available do?

As a corollary to this last question. Assume for this purpose that the three hexes in question all had the same positive supply value. We now have the impact of the effects of movement up roads, over rivers and down trails.
In this case, would a retreat follow the path of least resistance?







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by bk19@mweb.co.za -- 9/4/2011 3:23:42 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/5/2011 2:32:19 AM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4902
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bk19@mweb.co.za

I have been wondering if the supply value of a hex is calculated in the same manner and using the same values as the original WITP.


I don't have a copy of the manual with me, but the current supply costs for different terrain and link types are listed in the manual, in the section on ground movement. They are quite different from the values in the original WitP game.

Andrew

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 2
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/5/2011 9:44:18 AM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

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Joined: 7/26/2011
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Thank you Andrew, I had missed the column in the table as defined in section 8.3.1 Overland Movement.

However, on its own, this table is still not sufficient to answer my original base question.

The table declares that different costs are associated with the movement of supply through various terrain types.
This to me is just an expansion on the original game mechanism. However, I can find no matching statement in
section 8.3 Ground Unit Movement or section 15 Logistics that enables me to determine the supply value of
any particular hex. In essence, I am looking for a statement such as the one found in WITP

quote:

The supply value of a move is calculated by subtracting the following from 100 (900 if a ground unit move):


which will allow me to

a) work out how far I can move a unit from its supply source before it can no longer be supplied.
b) place units in such a manner to force supply paths to be so long that little to no supply can get through to the enemy

for example....


(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 3
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/5/2011 12:08:59 PM   
Andrew Brown


Posts: 4902
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: Hex 82,170
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bk19@mweb.co.za

Thank you Andrew, I had missed the column in the table as defined in section 8.3.1 Overland Movement.

However, on its own, this table is still not sufficient to answer my original base question.

The table declares that different costs are associated with the movement of supply through various terrain types.
This to me is just an expansion on the original game mechanism. However, I can find no matching statement in
section 8.3 Ground Unit Movement or section 15 Logistics that enables me to determine the supply value of
any particular hex. In essence, I am looking for a statement such as the one found in WITP

quote:

The supply value of a move is calculated by subtracting the following from 100 (900 if a ground unit move):


which will allow me to

a) work out how far I can move a unit from its supply source before it can no longer be supplied.
b) place units in such a manner to force supply paths to be so long that little to no supply can get through to the enemy

for example....




I am not a coder, but as far as I am aware it is the same - the maximum supply path length is 100.

Andrew

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 4
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/5/2011 2:18:11 PM   
PaxMondo


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Joined: 6/6/2008
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The eta has a switch to show you supply in each hex.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Andrew Brown)
Post #: 5
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/5/2011 4:19:55 PM   
witpqs


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From: Argleton
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The attached text file is from a developer who made changes to the supply routine a year to a year and a half ago. Michael has been making more changes, but I believe that the basics covered in this earlier post still apply.

_____________________



Attachment (1)

< Message edited by witpqs -- 9/5/2011 4:20:11 PM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 6
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/5/2011 4:53:10 PM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

The attached text file is from a developer who made changes to the supply routine a year to a year and a half ago. Michael has been making more changes, but I believe that the basics covered in this earlier post still apply.

_____________________




Now this text file makes a lot of sense indeed. Whilst these notes actually detail movement between bases, it confirms that the base value is 100 (a la WITP) and secondly, on the assumption that code reuse principles apply, this also indicates how to determine the supply value of any hex in general. I suspect that it may also be the case that units in non-base locations will receive fresh supplies when needed 1,2 or 4 times a week depending on distance from the nearest base with sufficient stocks.

Thanks very much indeed for this information.

Hopefully, michaelm will find some time to confirm my inferences above and also answer my other questions raised in earlier postings.

EDIT: On the first pass I missed the content of the 4th loop. Implicit in this paragraph is that a LCU will receive supplies when in the field from any base in range with more than 20 units on hand if the LCU needs it. Further it also suggests that LCU's in the field will get supplied (if possible) every supply determination phase whereas bases may only be supplied from other bases as little as once a week. It occurs to me that given the right set of circumstances it is possible that LCUs placed equidistant (for example) between base A and B and A is also supplying base B, that should B run out of supplies, the LCU will still draw from base A. If Base A is however marginal in its stock holding this could trigger starvation of base B.




< Message edited by bk19@mweb.co.za -- 9/5/2011 5:15:42 PM >

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 7
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/5/2011 4:56:44 PM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

The eta has a switch to show you supply in each hex.


Err.. the what has a switch?

Please indicate how I trip/toggle/flip this switch.

Thanks in advance.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 8
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/5/2011 6:25:48 PM   
jmalter

 

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Joined: 10/12/2010
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hi bk19,

in the beta, during the orders phase, select one of your base hexes.

dismiss the base screen then type '5' - this hot-key toggles the 'supply-path' display. it steps down from '100' in the base hex, taking into account the supply-movement cost of each hexes terrain.

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 9
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/7/2011 11:34:47 AM   
bk19@mweb.co.za

 

Posts: 258
Joined: 7/26/2011
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Thank you jmalter.

Now this is a very useful facility indeed. Once the switch is activated you can click on any of your own bases and the numbers are instantly updated.

Its a pity this only works for bases that you own. If one were to assume that an enemy base had sufficient supplies, this facility could also be used to determine the best case levels of the state of enemy supply lines and thus provide a tool for planning 'supply interdiction' operations.

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 10
RE: Supply Rules Query - 9/7/2011 11:41:12 AM   
michaelm75au


Posts: 11731
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
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This would be to open for abuse for trying to 'guess' where enemy units are.

Its sole purpose was to help to determine if supply/resource could move between or were in range of other bases.
The path length used for that is 100 but that is not neccessarily a unit's supply path.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to bk19@mweb.co.za)
Post #: 11
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