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Axis minor surrender?

 
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Axis minor surrender? - 9/4/2011 11:42:22 AM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 506
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		btw. When Romania or Hungary surrenders what happens to German troops inside those countries?

Do they become isolated or do they warp back to Germany or what?
Post #: 1
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/4/2011 12:26:40 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6057
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline 		Historically, they disarmed any ex-allies within reach and continued to fight on.

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RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/4/2011 2:57:35 PM   
Q-Ball


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Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		They become isolated, unless there is a path of German controlled hexes back to German territory somewhere

Few games have reached 1944-ish in PBEM, but everyone will need to brush-up on this when they get there.

For starters, the Germans will need to keep a garrison in the Romanian City of Arad

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RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/5/2011 9:21:37 AM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

They become isolated, unless there is a path of German controlled hexes back to German territory somewhere

Few games have reached 1944-ish in PBEM, but everyone will need to brush-up on this when they get there.

For starters, the Germans will need to keep a garrison in the Romanian City of Arad


Reason I am asking I am playing 1944 campaing with Axis side and I dont expect to hold forever.

I have so many Germany and SS troops there fighing with Romanians I dont think Romania will surrender instantly when towns are taken but I like to know should I run Germany troops to Hungary when I think there is no chance to Save Romania anymore.

I also dont think my opponent cannot force Hungary to surrender before Romania I have pretty solid defences there and my opponent seems to push more toward Romania than Hungary.

It is game stopper if I find out that Romania surrender and all my best SS panzergrenadier and panzer divisions are gone turn later without chance to move toward Hungari to keep fighting.

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RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/5/2011 9:40:51 AM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

They become isolated, unless there is a path of German controlled hexes back to German territory somewhere

Few games have reached 1944-ish in PBEM, but everyone will need to brush-up on this when they get there.

For starters, the Germans will need to keep a garrison in the Romanian City of Arad


Reason I am asking I am playing 1944 campaing with Axis side and I dont expect to hold forever.

I have so many Germany and SS troops there fighing with Romanians I dont think Romania will surrender instantly when towns are taken but I like to know should I run Germany troops to Hungary when I think there is no chance to Save Romania anymore.

I also dont think my opponent cannot force Hungary to surrender before Romania I have pretty solid defences there and my opponent seems to push more toward Romania than Hungary.

It is game stopper if I find out that Romania surrender and all my best SS panzergrenadier and panzer divisions are gone turn later without chance to move toward Hungari to keep fighting.


It would also be unhistorical. Look at the surrender of Italy in September 1943. Most of the Italian Army went home, and the Germans took over the country.

_____________________________

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"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

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Post #: 5
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/13/2011 12:02:14 PM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 506
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		It happened what I feared most witch I wanted to ask as it is not clear in manual and witch will be game stopper if its not clear for me. Romanian army warped to other side last Logistic phase and surrendered large German army leaving very large number of German troops isolated. I even moved reinforcement divisions there last turn witch are also isolated.

Soviet only need to occupied circled are from Romania. This make Romania and HUNGARY surrender. I thought that there is no danger of surrender until at least 1-2 urban / city hex or capital is captured.

What makes things worst I had massive Romanian fortification and army deployed in the way that when they warped total Soviet side and controls during last logistic phase. Romanian forts and troops totally isolate all German troops behind Romanian fortifications that are 3-4 level build. There is no way I can make a hole with my isolated troops without getting killed.







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Jakerson -- 9/13/2011 12:45:28 PM >

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RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/13/2011 12:30:35 PM   
Jakerson

 

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Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		I just detected that Hungarian Surrendered too last ai logistic phase same time with Romanian Surrender there is no single Hungarian hex occupied at all.

I have no idea what triggered Hungarian surrenders but it is possible that there have been some romanian unit routed next to hungarian border town during Soviet player turn and when Romanian troops warped to other side they occupied on border hex next to them and from Hungary and connected it soviet supply grid this is my theory.


< Message edited by Jakerson -- 9/13/2011 12:40:03 PM >

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RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/13/2011 12:37:08 PM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 506
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		What bother me most there is no no early warning at all I think German should have at least one turn to rearrange German troops when serious game stopping trigger than this happen making Hungary and Romanian surrender during next logistic phase.

Something like Romanian and Hungary is going to surrender next turn message coming in logistic messages before it actually happen. This kind of sudden warp from black all forces totally establishing full command control with soviet side and cut off big German army in split second is just not historical.

EDIT: If there is no early warning at all it is no sence to play 1944-45 campaing as German side at all.

< Message edited by Jakerson -- 9/13/2011 12:47:20 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/13/2011 1:52:30 PM   
el hefe


Posts: 2848
Joined: 10/28/2002
Status: offline 		I know this is just a game but what happened to you in-game is what happened to the Germans in Rumania in August of 1944. The Rumanians completely collapsed leaving huge holes in the line and in many cases turned on the Germans. Few German units made it out of Rumania and the 6th Army was completely destroyed for the second time. You have to keep a German garrison in the Rumanian capital to keep it from flipping.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jakerson

What bother me most there is no no early warning at all I think German should have at least one turn to rearrange German troops when serious game stopping trigger than this happen making Hungary and Romanian surrender during next logistic phase.

Something like Romanian and Hungary is going to surrender next turn message coming in logistic messages before it actually happen. This kind of sudden warp from black all forces totally establishing full command control with soviet side and cut off big German army in split second is just not historical.

EDIT: If there is no early warning at all it is no sence to play 1944-45 campaing as German side at all.



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Post #: 9
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/13/2011 2:53:30 PM   
Jakerson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I know this is just a game but what happened to you in-game is what happened to the Germans in Rumania in August of 1944. The Rumanians completely collapsed leaving huge holes in the line and in many cases turned on the Germans. Few German units made it out of Rumania and the 6th Army was completely destroyed for the second time. You have to keep a German garrison in the Rumanian capital to keep it from flipping.

Trey


It doesn’t matter I am going to resign from this campaign game I did know that there is danger of surrender Hungary and Romania both in this way I had over 10 German divisions inside Romania and no Romanian urban, city or capital hexes gone. This is not just 6th army surrounded I have whole army group isolated in the way it cannot be saved one turn and I railed 10-15 German divisions there more than there was historically so I lose a lot more than historically.

My whole defense planning was based on the rule that I didn’t knew.

I trapped all my troops behind Romanian Maginot line of level 4 forts and pulled many Romanians troops from the line to speed up fortifying work and reinforced line with railing more Germans there than historically there was. My defense line was far from collapsing and there was only two small parts of line hold by Romanian troops.


If I would have knew how these Axis minors actually surrender this way (Hungary before any hex is taken and Romania before any urban hex is taken) I would have made totally different defense plan I would have dismantled those forts which could trap me instead of reinforcing them to wait that they slip to soviet side intact and trap me behind romanian maginot line.

I specially asked this axis minor surrender on the forum because this wasn’t clear for me to avoid this kind of quit of campaign 1944-45 game and make it longer than 12 turn. I knew that is this rule is not clear for me it is game over.


< Message edited by Jakerson -- 9/13/2011 3:06:18 PM >

(in reply to el hefe)
Post #: 10
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/13/2011 5:24:07 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 18456
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		From Manual:

19.1.4. SURRENDER
OF AXIS ALLIED FORCES
With the exception of Rumania (section 19.1.4.1), units belonging to Axis allied armies are
immediately removed from the game if their country surrenders, to include any anti-aircraft
support units attached to towns, cities or urban hexes. Axis allied countries check during each
Axis Logistics Phase to see if they surrender. Note that when determining Axis allied country
surrender, any Soviet occupied town, city or urban hex must be linked to the Soviet supply
grid in order to trigger a surrender condition. This means that a Soviet airborne combat unit
dropping behind enemy lines and capturing a town that could cause the surrender of an Axis
allied country will have no impact on surrender until that town is linked to the Soviet supply
grid.
255
19.1.4.1. RUMANIAN SURRENDER
Rumania automatically surrenders if Bucharest is Soviet controlled. There is a chance that
Rumania will surrender if, after January 1, 1942, a Rumanian city or town that is located in the
area where the Y coordinate of the hex is equal to or greater than 105 is Soviet controlled. With
the exception of much of the Northeastern “bulge” to the east of Hungary, this area includes
most of Rumania. If this condition is met, then a Surrender Threshold (ST) value is calculated
equal to 2 plus 1 for each German Division in Bucharest plus 2 additional points for each
Division that is an Elite SS unit. The ST can never be greater than 9. Once the ST is determined,
if Die (10)>ST, then Rumania surrenders.
Game Play Example: 2 Infantry Divisions and 1 Elite SS Division
in Bucharest would yield an ST of 7 (2 basic + 3 divisions +2 one of
the Divisions is Elite SS). Each turn that the conditions were met for a
possible surrender, then there would be a 30% chance that Rumania
would capitulate.
Upon Rumanian surrender, all Rumanian air base units, air headquarter units and Army Group
and High Command headquarter units will be automatically disbanded. For other Rumanian
ground units, if Rumanian and non-Rumanian units are stacked in a hex, then the side whose
units have a smaller combat value will have its units automatically disbanded. Rumanian
headquarter units will automatically disband if adjacent to an Axis unit and not stacked with a
friendly combat unit. All Rumanian units not disbanded (due to automatic disbanding or being
stacked with Axis units) will automatically convert to Soviet Rumanian units. When Rumanian
units are converted to Soviet Rumanian units, on-map units take Soviet control over all eligible
hexes as if they had just moved into that hex. Soviet control of hexes will also occur due to
the placement of units created as part of Soviet Rumanian army units (section 19.3 below).
All Rumanian nationality town, city or urban hexes not occupied by a non-Rumanian Axis unit
will also change to Soviet control. Any town, city or urban hex that changes to Soviet control
will also have adjacent hexes change to Soviet control as long as no non-Rumanian Axis units
are in the adjacent hex.

19.1.4.2. HUNGARIAN SURRENDER
Hungary surrenders if Budapest is Soviet controlled. There
is a chance that Hungary will surrender if, after January 1,
1942, either Nyiregyhasa (X39, Y93) or Arad (X36, Y106) are
Soviet controlled. If this condition is met, then a Surrender
Threshold (ST) value is calculated equal to 7 plus 1 for each
German Division in Budapest plus 2 additional points for each
Division that is an Elite SS unit. Once the ST is determined, if
Die (10)>ST, then Hungary surrenders.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to Jakerson)
Post #: 11
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/13/2011 7:04:27 PM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 506
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		Well partly my mistake I thought that every German Divisions moved inside territory of Axis Allied is calculated surrender threshold I didnt knew they need to be inside capital this is reason why I moved  eleven German divisions inside Romanian territory.  

I still do not understand why Bulgaria surrendered no single hex of Bulgaria was taken and soviet troops were behind the mountain and they cannot move 5 hex of mountain in one turn and pass through all troops fortified in mountains. Only explanation is that surrendering Romanian troops attacked Bulgarian territory and made them surrender.  It is possible that some Romanian unit routed next to Bulgarian town and take control of the Bulgarian hex witch triggered surrendering.

Those damn Bulgarians surrender after they lose one town done by surrendering Romanians.

Well this campaign went haywire you simply cannot make proper plans to play if you don’t know how these surrender rules work.

< Message edited by Jakerson -- 9/13/2011 7:06:47 PM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 12
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/13/2011 10:03:46 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1503
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		It seems that you may have wanted to read the rules first, since Joel was kind enough to post them.


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Post #: 13
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/14/2011 9:34:40 AM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 506
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: paullus99

It seems that you may have wanted to read the rules first, since Joel was kind enough to post them.



This was my first 1944-45 campaing game and first time I play this far. There is something of 300 pages of rules I suspect that no player can remember them all. This Axis minor issue was not clear for me.

I didn't even realize until now that those tiny spots connected to rail system are actually towns (I thought that they are connecting points for rail system) I did not understand that they are something that can cause surrender. I thought that towns are only those urban hexes marked on the map clearly. This is main reason why I thougt there is no danger of surrender.

This game dosent tell much what is going under the hood so how I could have know?

I could have easily garrison all places needed to keep going much longer I could have easily give my troops better route to escape but I trapped my troops worst possible way. Hungary and Romania surrendered, bulk of my troops are deployed as far as east as they can behind maginot line of Romanian troops (witch I build and deployed there on purpose) witch are now in Soviet control. My troops have no way to penetrate maginot line I build there with isolated CV.

Otherwise game went pretty well up to this point and could have been interesting game longer.



< Message edited by Jakerson -- 9/14/2011 9:39:35 AM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/14/2011 10:16:27 AM   
majeloz

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 2/13/2011
From: Australia
Status: offline 		Hey Jakerson, it happens to all of us. I learned the trigger for Hungarian surrender the hard way. It's why playing on in games that are 'lost' is good -- you learn more. I like the way you tried to solve the problem though -- at least you read the rules just didn't quite get them (unlike me, who didn't even read them LOL)

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RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/14/2011 10:47:09 AM   
Jakerson

 

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Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: majeloz

Hey Jakerson, it happens to all of us. I learned the trigger for Hungarian surrender the hard way. It's why playing on in games that are 'lost' is good -- you learn more. I like the way you tried to solve the problem though -- at least you read the rules just didn't quite get them (unlike me, who didn't even read them LOL)


I didnt quite get them and didnt remember them all.

If you are going to play 44-45 campaing as axis side you have to put german divisions inside capitals of Hungary and Romania (this way they last longer) and one German division inside romanian town Arad and never take them away.

Also it is good idea to deploy German troops in the south as soon as possible to defend western part of the line and romanians eastern part. When Romania Surrenders this way all German troops are not trapped behind Romanians that switch side.

If Arad is garrisoned German troops have chance to fight and escape toward Germany trough Hungary.

(in reply to majeloz)
Post #: 16
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/14/2011 1:22:01 PM   
paullus99


Posts: 1503
Joined: 1/23/2002
Status: offline 		And I wanted to put out there that I certainly didn't mean any offense by my statement - it is just that the rules are plainly stated in the manual & if you were looking at the PDF version, you could have done a quick search for it.

Live and learn - you'll know next time.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon...

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Post #: 17
RE: Axis minor surrender? - 9/14/2011 8:43:40 PM   
Jakerson

 

Posts: 506
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		When Romania and Bulgaria surrendered one Germany air base relocated to Bulgaria and it cannot be moved out from Bulgaria either normal way or rail.

If I use relocate button it just relocate inside Bulgaria.

I think this is bug becouse Bulgarian territory is locked after Romanian surrender and air bases should not relocate there.

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 18
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