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RE: Hiwis and 1.05

 
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RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 6:11:53 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I can't wrap my head around this list.

Trey



Pardon?

What is it you have trouble with?


(in reply to el hefe)
Post #: 31
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 6:18:36 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Consider the second and third order of effects with adding these new units. First, ask yourself do you want replacements siphoned off from your SS and Panzer Divisions to man the 650th Volksgrenadier Division which hardly saw any combat? Will most people even use these units or will they be disbanded for their replacements? If the answer is no but we still want these units, then we have to figure out how to man these units through manpower and create special squads for each nationality. Then you have to consider these security and police units which could unbalance the whole abstracted partisan conflict. If Joel thinks these additions are worthy of the programming time, I would be happy to add them into the campaigns. Personally, I wouldn't want these units sucking up good manpower.

Trey


The question is, are we getting this manpower now? Not the Hiwi manpower, but the ethnic minoritiy manpower that fought for the Germans on the Eastern front.

Secondly, there are definitely regiment and brigade type units which are missing from the OoB. Also several German KG's and Mech Bat. are not in there (as far as I can tell from quickly checking) which could be VERY usefull to attach to Panzer divs, etc...

For instance (just an example) I remember the 16 Mot. Div in Operation Uranus had a regiment of 3 batt. of Cav. attached to help them patrol the open Flank (South Stalingrad).

Will it decisively influence the game? Maybe not, but this is hard core gaming, it adds flair and fun.

Concerning the manpower, 1 pool for these units seems like plenty, just add more to the pool to take them into account

(in reply to el hefe)
Post #: 32
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 6:37:28 PM   
Brad Hunter


Posts: 1148
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad


Hi Brad,

I'm interested in the source for this as certainly by the time of Normandy most German units in France/Holland etc were authorized/had Hiwi's.



They may have had Osttruppen attached/assigned, but, Hiwis were not officially sanctioned. In the NARA docs, a clear distinction is made between the Kriegsgliederung for units serving in the East and West - units in the West were not officially authorized Hiwi. Did some units bring their Hiwi with them, when they were sent to the West for refit? Maybe. I've not found any definitive documentation on this, but I do know that most units in the West were authorized Osttruppen - mostly company-sized units, with some battalions, and a few regiment-sized units - and these units were armed - and surrendered en-masse at the first opportunity after the Allies landed.

The Poles in Italy, and in NWE, carried extra stocks of "allied" uniforms, and inducted many former ethnically Polish Wehrmacht troops, on the spot, into their ranks. In Italy, the 3rd and 5th Divisions had so many "volunteers," that they were able to form 3rd brigades in both divisions in 1945.

Have all of the Osttruppen serving on the Eastern Front been represented? Probably not. There were all kinds of "ants" raised from the local populace (mostly "security" troops), especially Cossacks, but as El Hefe has stated, do you really want that drain on your manpower pool? At some point in time, you have to stop, and call it "good." If you want to add units, we have an editor, as glvaca has done.

Brad


_____________________________

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(in reply to Steelers708)
Post #: 33
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 6:41:38 PM   
Brad Hunter


Posts: 1148
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Consider the second and third order of effects with adding these new units. First, ask yourself do you want replacements siphoned off from your SS and Panzer Divisions to man the 650th Volksgrenadier Division which hardly saw any combat? Will most people even use these units or will they be disbanded for their replacements? If the answer is no but we still want these units, then we have to figure out how to man these units through manpower and create special squads for each nationality. Then you have to consider these security and police units which could unbalance the whole abstracted partisan conflict. If Joel thinks these additions are worthy of the programming time, I would be happy to add them into the campaigns. Personally, I wouldn't want these units sucking up good manpower.

Trey


The question is, are we getting this manpower now? Not the Hiwi manpower, but the ethnic minoritiy manpower that fought for the Germans on the Eastern front.

Secondly, there are definitely regiment and brigade type units which are missing from the OoB. Also several German KG's and Mech Bat. are not in there (as far as I can tell from quickly checking) which could be VERY usefull to attach to Panzer divs, etc...

For instance (just an example) I remember the 16 Mot. Div in Operation Uranus had a regiment of 3 batt. of Cav. attached to help them patrol the open Flank (South Stalingrad).

Will it decisively influence the game? Maybe not, but this is hard core gaming, it adds flair and fun.

Concerning the manpower, 1 pool for these units seems like plenty, just add more to the pool to take them into account


You won't see KGs in the Campaigns - maybe in the short scenarios - that was a design decision made a long time ago - split a division, and you have instant KGs.


_____________________________

WitE Alpha/Beta Tester
WitE Research Team
WitW Research Team

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 34
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 6:42:34 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
If you want to add units, we have an editor, as glvaca has done.

Brad



Some confusion here, haven't used the editor at all.

(in reply to Brad Hunter)
Post #: 35
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 6:43:47 PM   
Brad Hunter


Posts: 1148
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
If you want to add units, we have an editor, as glvaca has done.

Brad



Some confusion here, haven't used the editor at all.


LOL - sorry - I thought you had created those units.


_____________________________

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WitE Research Team
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(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 36
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 7:05:11 PM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 56
Joined: 12/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
Also, Hiwis were NOT officially authorized for units serving in the West.

Brad


Hi Brad,

I'm interested in the source for this as certainly by the time of Normandy most German units in France/Holland etc were authorized/had Hiwi's.



They may have had Osttruppen attached/assigned, but, Hiwis were not officially sanctioned. In the NARA docs, a clear distinction is made between the Kriegsgliederung for units serving in the East and West - units in the West were not officially authorized Hiwi. Did some units bring their Hiwi with them, when they were sent to the West for refit? Maybe. I've not found any definitive documentation on this, but I do know that most units in the West were authorized Osttruppen - mostly company-sized units, with some battalions, and a few regiment-sized units - and these units were armed - and surrendered en-masse at the first opportunity after the Allies landed.
Brad



I hate to disagree but they must have been authorized Hiwi's, I don't have access to my discs of German records at the moment but I've checked my copy of Niklas Zetterlings - Normandy 1944 - German Military Organization, Combat Power and Organizational Effectiveness, and whilst several infantry divisions do indeed have Osttruppen as organic units he also shows that some units formed in France in 1944 had Hiwi's e.g.

77. Infanterie Division - 1,410 Hiwi's with a footnote to: OB West 1a Nr. 4340/44 g.Kdos, 4.6.44, T311, R24, F7029127

84. Infantrie division - 1,378 Hiwi's with a footnote to: OB West 1a Nr. 4772/44 g.Kdos, 20.6.44, T311, R24, F7029678

There are quite a few others but these 2 examples will suffice I think.


(in reply to Brad Hunter)
Post #: 37
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 7:08:41 PM   
Brad Hunter


Posts: 1148
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline 		Yup - a "Type 44" Infanterie Division was authorized 1466 Hiwi.

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(in reply to Steelers708)
Post #: 38
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 7:12:44 PM   
glvaca

 

Posts: 1109
Joined: 6/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
If you want to add units, we have an editor, as glvaca has done.

Brad



Some confusion here, haven't used the editor at all.


LOL - sorry - I thought you had created those units.




(in reply to Brad Hunter)
Post #: 39
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 7:59:02 PM   
abulbulian


Posts: 699
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline 		I hope to see the role of the Hiwis expanded in WitE. I read that about 1.5 million Hiwis served on the eastern front during the role. In many different capacities.



< Message edited by abulbulian -- 9/8/2011 6:19:59 PM >

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 40
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 8:00:55 PM   
Zebedee


Posts: 523
Joined: 8/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brad Hunter
They may have had Osttruppen attached/assigned, but, Hiwis were not officially sanctioned. In the NARA docs, a clear distinction is made between the Kriegsgliederung for units serving in the East and West - units in the West were not officially authorized Hiwi. Did some units bring their Hiwi with them, when they were sent to the West for refit? Maybe. I've not found any definitive documentation on this, but I do know that most units in the West were authorized Osttruppen - mostly company-sized units, with some battalions, and a few regiment-sized units - and these units were armed - and surrendered en-masse at the first opportunity after the Allies landed.


The Iststärke of Heeresgruppe D dated 24 July 1944 is somewhat illuminating on this subject. Incidentally, Hiwis in this report seem to merge into Osttruppen figures in others. Someone may not have got the memo one suspects.

< Message edited by Zebedee -- 9/7/2011 10:06:01 PM >

(in reply to Brad Hunter)
Post #: 41
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 8:05:04 PM   
cavalry

 

Posts: 1727
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Blackboys East Sussex UK
Status: offline 		The Baltic states units are as seperate as Bulgaria etc. If you have Bulgarian squads you can have Estonian . BTW some of these units became Divisions...

Cav.

(in reply to Zebedee)
Post #: 42
RE: Hiwis and 1.05 - 9/7/2011 8:40:54 PM   
el hefe


Posts: 2848
Joined: 10/28/2002
Status: offline 		The way it is organized gives me a headache. If it was a simple listing of the OOB of Blue, I could study it in more detail. I never played OCS so that listing looks like a jumbled word search in a massive wall of text. Brad is correct in that kampfgruppes are not separate units in the OOB since they almost always belonged to larger organizations that are in-game. I wouldn't mind taking a look at that list if someone could make it more readable.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

I can't wrap my head around this list.

Trey



Pardon?

What is it you have trouble with?





_____________________________

"You want mercy!? I'm chaotic neutral!"

WiTE Scenario Designer
WitW Scenario/Data Team Lead
Sabre 21's perpetual arch-nemisis

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 43
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