Matrix Games Forums

Characters of World War 1Sign of for the Pike and Shot Beta!More Games are Coming to Steam! Deal of the Week: Combat Command Return to the Moon on October 31st! Commander: The Great War iPad Wallpapers Generals of the Great WarDeal of the Week Panzer CorpsNew Strategy Titles Join the FamilyTablet Version of Qvadriga gets new patch
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

How long to build a base?

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> How long to build a base? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
How long to build a base? - 8/15/2011 2:08:37 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline
Airfield and Port Construction Times

Factors involved in construction times
1. 1 Eng Vehicle = 5 Engineers and 1 build point = 1 engineer.
2. Supply Consumption Rate. Engineers in combat mode consume roughly the same amount of supply whether they are constructing bases or not.
3. Supply Consumption. Engineers in combat mode do not consume supplies at the same rates. I ran tests with 30 engineers, 60 engineers and 120 engineers both constructing and not constructing. The rates within each size were the same (60 constructing and 60 in combat mode not constructing consumed roughly the same amount of supplies.). Consumption rates per turn for 30, 60 and 120 engineers were all different. The larger the number of engineers, the fewer supplies consumed per capita. Notably, 2 supplies per engineer does not seem to hold.
4. Engineer usage. An odd number of engineers is treated as if it has 1 more engineer (5 engineers acts like 6, for example).
5. Each size of a port or airfield costs the same amount regardless of the SPS as long as the SPS is greater than 0 and the port or airfield is smaller or equal to the SPS size. In other words, a level 1 airfield on a 0(1), 0(2), through 0(9) costs the same amount of engineer points. I call this value the standard cost.
6. A port or airfield 1 size larger than the SPS costs twice the standard cost you are building to.
7. A port or airfield 2 or 3 sizes larger than the SPS costs four times the standard cost for the size you are building to.
8. A 0(0) dot base costs 20 times the standard cost for a size 1 base.
9. A 1(0) or 2(0) costs 40 times the standard cost for building a size 2 or 3 base.
10. The total SPS of the base (port SPS + airfield SPS) impacts the total number of engineers allowed to work on the base up to a maximum SPS of 9.
11. Engineers work 12 hours per day. First turn and second turn construction times are the same, so engineers seem to work during the day turn and not nights.
12. Type of island doesn't matter (6000, 60,000 or unlimited) for construction speeds.

Rules of Thumb
1. Trying to build up 0 total SPS bases (0(0), 0(0)) is generally a bad idea. You can only use a few engineers and that number goes down as the size goes up.
2. However, building up a 0(0) base with an SPS greater than 0 (say a 0(3), 0(0)) is much easier. I don't have the values in the table, but you can use more engineers which has the effect of a faster build time.

Assumptions that were not tested
1. All engineers are equal with respect to construction time and supply cost.
2. Landlocked airbases behave the same as island port/airfields with respect to SPS calculations.
3. Anything to do with forts.

Simplifications
1. I ignored disabled support/engineers during testing as it didn't seem to materially affect the results.
2. The actual standard costs are numbers like 394 and 296. In all cases, I've rounded up to the nearest hundred. This has the affect of overestimating engineers and costs. The actual values are somewhat smaller but not that much.

Other
(Testing done with 1108p7)
(Testing done with modified scenario 11 (Marianas 1943)

< Message edited by Graymane -- 8/19/2011 12:42:05 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/15/2011 5:10:08 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline
I've provided two tables to help with estimating build time and costs. The first table is the "raw" numbers along with maximum 1 turn builds allowable. The second table is a simplified version with numbers rounded to the the hundred of the various build costs.

All numbers are in terms of engineering points. The work 1 engineer performs in 1 turn. There is no relation to supply.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Graymane -- 8/19/2011 12:36:45 PM >

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 2
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/17/2011 6:46:06 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline
I've updated my first two posts with explanations of what I've done and some hopefully helpful tables. I'm hoping everything is explained adequately, but if not, feel free to post comments!

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 3
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/17/2011 8:15:17 PM   
witpqs

 

Posts: 14496
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: online
I can't imagine how many testing permutations you went through to suss out details like max engineers allowed.

Thanks!

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 4
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/17/2011 9:40:03 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline
Outstanding research. Thanks!

_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 5
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/17/2011 10:27:22 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5618
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

Outstanding research. Thanks!

+1

Great stuff here.

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 6
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/17/2011 11:16:00 PM   
mikkey


Posts: 732
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
interesting, thanks

_____________________________


(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 7
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/18/2011 12:10:06 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

I can't imagine how many testing permutations you went through to suss out details like max engineers allowed.

Thanks!


I'd rather forget

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 8
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/18/2011 6:42:10 PM   
dr.hal


Posts: 1963
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline
Really good stuff, thanks Graymane... but one thing, what does SPS stand for???? I find it mega interesting and somewhat un-understandable that there is no difference in comsuption rates if an engineering squad is at rest or in combat.... is this true for ALL types of squads? ....."all the world wonders!" Hal

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 9
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/18/2011 6:55:52 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline
SPS = Standard Potential Size. It is the number in parens when looking at the port or AF. You can build up to 3 over the size of the SPS. It costs relatively little to build a base up to its SPS for port and af and a lot more to go over.

As far as consumption goes, it is not comparing at rest to combat mode, it is comparing engineers in combat mode and whether or not you are attempting to expand the base size or not. I've updated the text in the first post to reflect that.

< Message edited by Graymane -- 8/18/2011 6:56:41 PM >

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 10
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/18/2011 7:34:10 PM   
Panjack

 

Posts: 132
Joined: 7/12/2009
Status: offline
To help me understand these numbers, a few perhaps obvious questions.

In the top table we find under row "1", column "3" the following: "394". This means the maximum (effective) number of engineers (or engineer equivalents) is 394. If you have, say, 398 in this hex, 4 engineers are playing cards while 394 are working?

Next, the lack of parenthesis after this 394 means that in one turn (if adequate supply exists) you can built up to from a level 0 to a level 1 port? It also means you could get from a level 0 to a level 1 airfield (if that's what you're building)?

But if, say, only 100 engineers (about 1/4 of the 394) are in the hex than does this mean that it takes about 4 turns to go from 0 to 1 level base?

Then in row "2", column "3" we see "498 (84%)". This cell presumes you already have a level 1 base but are now attempting to build to a level 2 base. The number in this cell means that if you have 498 engineers you can get 84% of the way from a level 1 to a level 2 base in a single turn? If you have, however, 250 engineers you can get about 42% of the way from a level 1 to a level 2 base in a single turn?


< Message edited by Panjack -- 8/18/2011 7:37:08 PM >

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 11
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/18/2011 8:32:36 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

To help me understand these numbers, a few perhaps obvious questions.

In the top table we find under row "1", column "3" the following: "394". This means the maximum (effective) number of engineers (or engineer equivalents) is 394. If you have, say, 398 in this hex, 4 engineers are playing cards while 394 are working?


Yes.

quote:


Next, the lack of parenthesis after this 394 means that in one turn (if adequate supply exists) you can built up to from a level 0 to a level 1 port? It also means you could get from a level 0 to a level 1 airfield (if that's what you're building)?


Yes.

quote:


But if, say, only 100 engineers (about 1/4 of the 394) are in the hex than does this mean that it takes about 4 turns to go from 0 to 1 level base?


Yes.

quote:


Then in row "2", column "3" we see "498 (84%)". This cell presumes you already have a level 1 base but are now attempting to build to a level 2 base. The number in this cell means that if you have 498 engineers you can get 84% of the way from a level 1 to a level 2 base in a single turn?


Yes.

quote:


If you have, however, 250 engineers you can get about 42% of the way from a level 1 to a level 2 base in a single turn?



Yes. You got it

(in reply to Panjack)
Post #: 12
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/18/2011 8:39:22 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1214
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
SPS = Standard Potential Size, the # inside the ()s next to a base-hex's port/airfield capacity. a base facility can be built-up to a max of its SPS + 3, so a port currently at 3(4) can be built 4 steps to a max of 7(4).

LCUs (not actually engaged in combat) consume supplies at the same rate - they don't go on half-rations just 'cos they're 'resting' - note that 'rest' is actually 'rest/training' (supposedly the advantage to setting this mode is a better chance to increase its exp (up to a certain level which can then be improved only by actual combat experience)/morale rating and a faster rate-of-repair for disabled devices and T/O&E upgrade.

bulk thanks to Greymane for his testing/analysis! it'll be a great value to strategic planning to know that a particular base might be overloaded w/ engr units, excess engrs aren't helping matters where they're at & should be moved somewhere else.

let's see if i've got this right - building a 0(0) facility up to its max of 3(0) will take 384 turns & cost 66,000 sply pts (hmm, perhaps a typo in the chart, should (0.0075%) & (0.005%) be (0.75%) & (0.5%)?), & building a 0(1) facility to its max of 4(1) will take 33 turns & 8,800 sply - someone check my math!

where the big lesson here is that (0)-cap hexes probly ain't the best place to commit one's resources.

(in reply to dr.hal)
Post #: 13
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/18/2011 11:10:50 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jmalter
let's see if i've got this right - building a 0(0) facility up to its max of 3(0) will take 384 turns & cost 66,000 sply pts (hmm, perhaps a typo in the chart, should (0.0075%) & (0.005%) be (0.75%) & (0.5%)?), & building a 0(1) facility to its max of 4(1) will take 33 turns & 8,800 sply - someone check my math!

where the big lesson here is that (0)-cap hexes probly ain't the best place to commit one's resources.


I've edited my second post to clear up some confusion. The numbers listed are engineer points, not supply points. When verifying my numbers though, there is an error. The problem with percentages is that at the extremes, you get extreme results. I needed to carry out the test to more turns than a couple. I haven't had time to redo them all, but I have done the 0(0) to 1(0). The actual value in the first table should be 2.4% instead of 2%. That makes the actual cost 8167 instead of 9800 which I rounded up to 10000. A better value is 8200.

I will rerun 2(0) and 3(0) and post the results. So, to answer your question about a 3(0), it will be the values from the far right columns in the second table (10000 + 24000 + 32000, these are incorrect and I will fix them tonight or tomorrow). You take that sum and that gives you the total engineer points you need. So total up your engineers and divide it into that sum and that is the number of turns to construct the airfield/port.

I have no information on supply at this time. I SUSPECT that supply is tied to the standard base cost. i.e., a level 1 base under the SPS costs the same amount of supply to construct regardless of the number of engineers. Heck, it might even be the 2 * the value from the manual It would certainly explain why I get a different number of supply used per capita per engineer with different unit sizes.

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 14
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/18/2011 11:59:32 PM   
USS America


Posts: 16055
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Apex, NC, USA
Status: offline
Thanks for doing all this work, Graymane!  

I may be remembering incorrectly from Vanilla WitP, but I think supply costs for construction were 1 supply point per engineer point.  It could be changed in AE...


_____________________________

Mike

"Good times will set you free" - Jimmy Buffett

"They need more rum punch" - Me


Artwork by The Amazing Dixie

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 15
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/19/2011 12:20:20 AM   
Panjack

 

Posts: 132
Joined: 7/12/2009
Status: offline
And to clarify one thing: for the purposes of building ports and airfields engineering vehicles have no special impact other than being equal to five engineers? And, so, a unit with 10 engineers and 1 engineering vehicle is, from the point of view of building stuff, the same as a unit with 15 engineers?

(in reply to USS America)
Post #: 16
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/19/2011 1:19:42 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 1963
Joined: 6/3/2006
Status: offline
This is really good info, thanks for the feedback guys.... I should have guessed the SPS thing.... sigh.... Hal

(in reply to Panjack)
Post #: 17
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/19/2011 1:31:00 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panjack

And to clarify one thing: for the purposes of building ports and airfields engineering vehicles have no special impact other than being equal to five engineers? And, so, a unit with 10 engineers and 1 engineering vehicle is, from the point of view of building stuff, the same as a unit with 15 engineers?


Yes

_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Panjack)
Post #: 18
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/19/2011 3:00:50 AM   
Commander Cody


Posts: 843
Joined: 7/4/2003
From: Seoul, Korea
Status: offline
Stellar work, Sir! Us humble players do appreciate such empirical studies.

Cheers,
CC


_____________________________

Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.

(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 19
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/19/2011 9:39:30 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3633
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
Which base did you do the testing on, and which scenario? This is important to know because quite often the scenario designer has subtly altered some details between scenarios, a situation most likely to arise between a Grand Campaign (such as scenario 1 or 2) and a limited map based scenario.

Alfred

(in reply to Commander Cody)
Post #: 20
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/19/2011 11:06:54 AM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 9770
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline
This gave me a headache. I could scarecely begin scanning this thread when my eyes glazed over and I passed out, my toes twitching and my chest hair curling and uncurling.  But I didn't lose consciousness before noting that Graymane did alot of work and that many posters knew exactly what he was talking about and derived a great deal of useful information from his tests.

This is why some players (moi....) will never be as good as others no matter how much experience we get.  We just don't want to delve into the game mechanics in this detail.

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 21
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/19/2011 12:45:36 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Which base did you do the testing on, and which scenario? This is important to know because quite often the scenario designer has subtly altered some details between scenarios, a situation most likely to arise between a Grand Campaign (such as scenario 1 or 2) and a limited map based scenario.

Alfred


I've updated the first post with the version and scenario I used (scenario 11 Marianas). I basically took that scenario and whacked out the Japanese so the turns would roll faster. I've been working on trying do this with a modified 1 or 2 scenario, but it is daunting to me as I'm not good at scenario design and I don't know a fast way to get rid of the Jap units so I can just run turns.

I've asked for help in the scenario design forum: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2888387&mpage=1&key=�

< Message edited by Graymane -- 8/19/2011 12:56:58 PM >

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 22
RE: How long to build a base? - 8/19/2011 12:51:53 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

This gave me a headache. I could scarecely begin scanning this thread when my eyes glazed over and I passed out, my toes twitching and my chest hair curling and uncurling.  But I didn't lose consciousness before noting that Graymane did alot of work and that many posters knew exactly what he was talking about and derived a great deal of useful information from his tests.

This is why some players (moi....) will never be as good as others no matter how much experience we get.  We just don't want to delve into the game mechanics in this detail.


Well, to be honest, I think I'm more like you than you would expect -) The problem is, this was something that was just bugging the **** out of me. I can't believe a commander would show up at a base and ask his engineers "how long will it take you to build an airfield than support fighters flying CAP?" and not get some kind of a ball park answer (a day, a month, 6 months?).

Ok, as a software engineer and a manager, I CAN see how I could ask for an estimate and get no useful answer at all, but you get the point I hope -)

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 23
RE: How long to build a base? - 5/17/2012 12:31:33 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 6964
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: online
Bump!!

I need to get the figures (and number of engineers needed) to expand a size 2(0) port to size 3(0) and need some R&R before I try to do it. Then what about going from a 5 to 6 and even level 7 forts.



_____________________________


(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 24
RE: How long to build a base? - 5/18/2012 9:08:47 AM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4519
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
Sensational piece of work, thank you Graymane!

_____________________________

S**t happens in war.

All hail the superior ones!

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 25
RE: How long to build a base? - 5/18/2012 1:02:46 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 499
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Bump!!

I need to get the figures (and number of engineers needed) to expand a size 2(0) port to size 3(0) and need some R&R before I try to do it. Then what about going from a 5 to 6 and even level 7 forts.




Well. the tables above will answer your question about engineers for AF/Port, but I didn't do any research on forts.

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 26
RE: How long to build a base? - 5/18/2012 1:42:03 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4717
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Bump!!

I need to get the figures (and number of engineers needed) to expand a size 2(0) port to size 3(0) and need some R&R before I try to do it. Then what about going from a 5 to 6 and even level 7 forts.




Well. the tables above will answer your question about engineers for AF/Port, but I didn't do any research on forts.

According to what I use to calculate the percent in Tracker they are all the same...

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 27
RE: How long to build a base? - 5/18/2012 4:00:07 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25292
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
nice job.

impressive study.


(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 28
RE: How long to build a base? - 5/18/2012 8:55:17 PM   
jmalter

 

Posts: 1214
Joined: 10/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
nice job.
impressive study.

hear that! i've got this post bookmarked (along w/ no few others, such as Alfred's series of 101s) & refer to Greymane's charts rather often.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 29
RE: How long to build a base? - 5/18/2012 11:05:16 PM   
Schanilec

 

Posts: 3186
Joined: 6/12/2010
From: Grand Forks, ND
Status: offline
Another bad place for building up an airfield. Dutch Harbor. What a bear.

_____________________________

This is one Czech that doesn't bounce.

(in reply to jmalter)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> How long to build a base? Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.117