The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

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John 3rd
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The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by John 3rd »

The discussion over the Perfect War Mod creation has been fantastic with a deal deal of players jumping in with exciting and interesting ideas. Since we have been, by necessity, trying to figure out the Japanese side first, many people have outstanding ideas for the Allied side that could be all-new, dependent on Japanese moves, or are simply highly creative and deserve to be read and discussed This Thread now handles this side of the Mod.

Please feel free to throw in your ideas!

If anyone thinks there is something excellent from the other thread, please get it into here so we have everything here.

ENJOY!
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by Terminus »

A less stupid Omaha class, with turreted guns instead of casemates.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by vettim89 »

More options for CVL conversion for Cleveland Class CL's would be nice
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by John 3rd »

What about STARTING some of them/all of them as a CLAA?
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by John 3rd »

ORIGINAL: vettim89

More options for CVL conversion for Cleveland Class CL's would be nice

We did that with RA and I liked it. Excellent and easy-to fix thought.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by oldman45 »

We need to have two trains of thought.

1) what changes to ships and planes should we look at?

2) what would change in the pacific as far as the western powers are concerned as Japan ramps up? This one might be harder as politics and economics are involved.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by RevRick »

There are a number of questions to be considered.
Question 1.  What are the condition and dates on any existing Naval Treaties?

Is the WNT in effect?  Is the tonnage limitation the same for BB?  for CV?
What is the end date for the WNT, if it is in effect?
What are the restrictions for the WNT in numbers of ships, or max size for each category?
Is there a modification with the London Treaty of 1930?
Did the RN request at 14" Naval Gun limitation on capital ship replacement construction?
Do Treaty limitations on CA, CL, DD expire 1936, or at withdrawal of any participant?

Question 2.  What are the intelligence capacities of the US?
Did Stimson get appointed as SecState, and shut down Yardley's codebreakers?
Did Hoover get elected President and starve the Navy?
Did intelligence reveal the plans of the IJN to withdraw from the WNT limitations?
Did intelligence reveal the scope of the building plans for the IJN?
Did the Depression strike as deeply, and if so, did Roosevelt decided to spend more funds in Naval Construction/Reconstruction?


For Example:

WNT tonnage BB limitations are 600,000 tons for RN and USN, 390,000 for IJN, and 217,500 for France and Italy.
WNT restrictions on size of BB = 40,000 tons.
WNT restriction on size of main battery - 16"
WNT tonnage CV limitations are 170,000 tons for RN and USN, 111,000 for IJN, 75,000 for France and Italy.
WNT max size on CV rebuilds from ship on the ways 33,600 tons.
WNT max size on CV built keel up - 26,000 tons.
Naval BB numbers on a 5-5-3.5-1.75-1.75 ratio.
Max number of BBs - USN & RN 20, IJN 14, France and Italy 7

Just a few ideas...

 
 
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by John 3rd »

Washington and London goes 5:5:3.5 instead of 5:5:3.

Manchuria is taken and more heavily colonized/developed.

The China War occurs but slightly later so the Japanese are not nearly so far advanced into the interior.

We were not messing with any of the particulars of ships size, gun size, etc...

For people wanting to jump in make sure you read the other thread so you know the thoughts going on there. We will settle the Japanese side and then move to the Allied perspective. Big ideas tossed out so far include some form of on-map production ability for the Allies (several proposals there), on-map pilot training, differing possibilities for British, American, and Philippino deployments. There are LOTS more I hope people bring over from the other Thread. It is a bunch of information!
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by oldman45 »

Lets do ships first and when Japan is settled, then we can work out the politics and economics on the Western powers.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by oldman45 »

As far as ships, the simple ones are the conversions in RA and talked about here. The Cleveland conversions, the Omaha AA conversions, the AV to CVE conversion and there is one other that creates 2 CVE's.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by DOCUP »

Theres no treaty in 35 so all bets are off after that.  I don't think that the US would of went hog wild in this time but would of tried to keep the edge on the Japanese. 
 
I think the US still had some room in the early 30s to build some crusiers and DDs.  So why not build them.  Later they can be converted to DEs, APDs etc.
 
Another problem to look at is slip space for the American ships.  What could of been built, converted etc.
 
If the Japanese left the treaty in 35, what would the Allies do?  Also what would the people let the gov do. 
 
My thoughts
Modernization of the big 5 could have went thru.  Upon seeing some money come into workers hands the people might of wanted more naval and army projects to create more jobs and put money in their pockets.  I don't think the isolationist would of liked the US building alot of ships, planes, and troops.  But modernizing the military and small growth might of been accepted once money and jobs showed up. 
 
Building the 6 BCs.  When are the laid down and of what desgin type?  Could say that the North Carolina class BB's arrive a little earlier due to Japanese leaving the treaty and building more BBs.  Also this period of time (from what little I have read) is monkey see monkey do.  If Japan started to build more cruisers, destroyers, so would the US. 
 
I don't think you'd see more US carriers during the early to late 30s unless the US found out that the Japanese were building them.  I like the conversion options for CVLs and CVEs that has been purposed already.  I think the US would of been a little slow on the draw to build up alot of capital ships and carriers and would of refitted older ones and could of built more smaller warships ie CLAAs (esp if Japan started to build them), CLs, DDs, DEs etc.  Something that could assist the US is selling off some of her older ships to smaller countries.  This would help her recoup money and open up treaty tonnage.  This could also go with AC.  Let PI have some more AC or even better ones. 
 
I do like the thought of adding fortification to bases around the western Pacific.  I think that the PI troops might of received some better weapons ie rifles, arty, etc.  I don't know if they would of recieved more US troops.  But if the US would of started ramping up its industrial might earlier the Grand could of been distrubed to more units earlier.  Allowing the 03s to go to PI forces along with some other weapons.  Maybe a few regiments or smaller units added.  But not many I don't think the isolationist would of liked it.  In 39 or 40 maybe then the US would start to bring in more troops and bring its understrenght units up to strength. 
 
Training squadrons have already been addressed.  Aircraft arrive earlier by a short pd maybe a higher replacement rate.  I do like the idea of being able to increase the AC numbers by controling or suppling factories.
 
just my thoughts
 
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by Hotschi »

Regarding ship building during the war;

.) Don't build all 6 of the Guam-Class large cruisers, just add one, CB Hawaii - IRL the US realized they weren't badly needed and shifted priority elsewhere, so why not stick with it.

.) No Montana-class BB's, since the design was so large it would have to be built in large drydocks - IRL cancelling this class made the building of the Midway-Class CV's possible

.) Maybe only add BB Illinois to the Iowa-class BB's.

.) Carriers - building of the Essex-class carriers, especially of the late war ones, could be accelerated which would result in the possible addition of 5 to 6 more ships (CV-32, 34, 35, 37, 45 and 47)

.) Add CVB-42 of the Midway-class - CVB-41 Midway was commissioned Sep 10 1945, CVB-42 on Oct 27 1945.

Also the numerous cancellations of submarines, destroyers and some cruisers could be reconsidered. In stock AE, the sudden stop of new ships commissioned late war is a bit odd when one plays a campaign well into 1946 - if the war would have lasted that long, I doubt that most or all ships in the pipeline (whether planned or in building) would have been cancelled.

Regarding planes, I don't have much ideas, except upgrading the fighter-groups on the CVE's to F6F-5 once the F8F-1 appears. I would also like a carrier capable version of the F7F on Midway-class carriers.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by mike scholl 1 »

A lot depends on what kind of "improvements" are made on the Japanese side. The least "wild hair" would be for the Japs to simplify their design specs to build more ships in general. Say they stopped building the "Special-type DD's" in 1930 and went to a more "Volkswagen" design philosophy. Four main battery guns, 8 tubes without re-loads, better AAA and ASW outfits. But as class succeeds class (like the Volkswagen Beetle) continual improvements are made to the capabilities of the design. Better DP mountings and loading gear and fire direction for the main guns, improved boilers, turbines, and radius of action, K and Y gun DC projectors, etc. Outwardly the same, but much improved internally.

This is exactly the kind of improvements (coupled with continued lying about displacements) that WOULDN'T trigger Western response. Historically the IJN kept trying to "push the envelope" in warship design. This not only worried other naval powers, it resulted in very "out of balance" and "delicate" vessels, most of which had to be re-built. What if instead they had gone with a more balanced CA design from the start (like the British)? Instead of trying to get 35 knots, settle for 32. 8 main battery guns with decent secondary DP's, fewer TT's, an original armour belt of 3" on a 2" wooden backing (which could be swapped out later for a 5" belt once the rest of the world stopped paying close attention. They could minimize the displacement of the original designs (allowing more to be built), but the design would allow for many improvements as the teech became available. And since the ships wouldn't have been designed to "impossible" specs, they would be more reliable and balanced. One of the reasons KB didn't use it's heavy support vessels for close in AAA protection (like the US did) was that they were lousy AAA platforms. A more balanced design to begin with could have solved this problem---and not gotten the West "up in arms" the way the "super ship" designs (which weren't very super to begin with) did.

Before you can discuss "Western response", you need to determine what they are responding to...

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by Terminus »

And also remember that they're not ONLY responding to the Japs.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by JWE »

If ya want, can get ya'll a much more detailed Dutch OOB and deployment from the DEI scenario we made for ourselves. Has everything (almost) that Jo van der Pluym and Harald Velemans have been mentioning, too.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by mike scholl 1 »

ORIGINAL: Terminus

And also remember that they're not ONLY responding to the Japs.


True.., the French were responding primarily to the Italians from 1922 on. And the Brits had to start taking Germany into account by the mid-30's. But the British "Colony Class" CL's and the US Brooklyn's were all in response to Japanese initiatives. What I meant was if the Japanese hadn't drawn so much attention to their program of "super" ships, the West might have ignored it far longer.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by FatR »

Reposting a few interesting Allied-related propositions from the first thread (not all of them are directly applicable to the current visions of the mod, of course):
A few possibilities for the Brits, I'm not too aware of the IJN possibilities, some more likely than others but none require a huge stretch of the imagination:

The Short Stirling does not go into production, instead Short's build more Sunderlands for coastal command allowing more to go overseas as well.

The Admiralty recognises that they will need more convoy escorts, as a result:
The early Black Swans are built in two batches of four in 1937 and five 1939. Realising that the Black Swans are too expensive for mass production and the Admiralty orders several Flower Class corvettes. It's realised that these are too slow and uncomfortable at sea after the first few are built. The Admiralty orders the first River Class frigates in 1940.
Would mean the RAN get their Rivers slightly earlier. The RN has more escorts available in the Indian Ocean.

The cancelled two County Class cruisers are still cancelled, instead their place is taken by two more York/Exeter cruisers (HMS Ely/Lincoln/Canterbury/Durham/Salisbury). HMS London does not have her big refit/rebuild as the money isn't there now.

The Royal Navy regains control of the Fleet Air Arm several years earlier, potentially making slightly less crappy planes available earlier

The breakdown/non-occurance of the naval treaties means that the KGV class are redesigned to mount 16" guns.

The RN learns the lessons that Norway and Dunkirk taught them about airpower far quicker, and production of the 40mm bofors gun is increased making more available to ships. Most will be fitted to escort ships operating along the East Coast convoys of the UK and any ships based in the Med.
ORIGINAL: Terminus

Drop the KGV and build Lions instead.
ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Gents,

I'm a little late to this party, but if you're looking for balance ideas for the Allies, here are some:

1. Build up Guam and Wake a bit better, as budgets to build the bases were originally planned to be higher but got cut.
2. Put a few more base forces and slightly improve AF and/or port levels on the path from Hawaii to Australia, representing better anticipation of hostilities.
3. F4U Corsair doesn't have so many problems in the prototype stage. Move up production of all models by X months (say 4).
4. Like the idea of having the option to use PPs to add aircraft factories.
5. Also like the idea of requiring a ramp up in Stateside factories.
6. Add some training squadrons at start, especially USN.

Cheers,
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by FatR »

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

A lot depends on what kind of "improvements" are made on the Japanese side. The least "wild hair" would be for the Japs to simplify their design specs to build more ships in general. Say they stopped building the "Special-type DD's" in 1930 and went to a more "Volkswagen" design philosophy.
Never. That basically requires Japan dropping the idea of ever actually contesting naval power of either US or GB in 1920s. (If the idea is on the table at all, Japan has to face reality of facinng a numerically superior enemy fleet, because the treaties, which persist as long as they did IRL in this alternative, ensure that, never mind actual difference in the economical power; the only plausible way to beat superior numbers is superior quality; by the time the treaties break down, over half of pre-war modern DD construction is already completed, so why anyone would want to downgrade from a tried and true design at that point?). The same applies to design of bigger Japanese warships, except arguably carriers.
ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1What if instead they had gone with a more balanced CA design from the start (like the British)?
In AE, Japanese heavy cruisers generally mop the floor with equal numbers of British ones. This is not accidental.
ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1One of the reasons KB didn't use it's heavy support vessels for close in AAA protection (like the US did) was that they were lousy AAA platforms.
Japanese didn't notice that, however. Or at least I don't remember Lacroix/Wells reporting if they did. They stopped doing that in 1942, because there simply weren't enough AA guns available to make capital ships sufficiently threatening, and by time there were enough AA guns in 1944-45, American air superiority became, so overwhelming that any sort of AAA fire was guaranteed to be insufficient.

EDIT: Although, looking at changes in Japanese orders during the war, in 1944 they did place escorts (although primarily DDs, for lack of other ships available for this fuction) much closer, than was usual in 1942 battles.

That said, this belongs in the other thread. I do have some ideas on reduction in DDs' size there.
ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1Before you can discuss "Western response", you need to determine what they are responding to...
Nothing seriously changes until late 1939 in the earliest, when two extra CVs, built in place of shadow fleet ships, enter the service. As by this time the American naval buildup is already aimed at completely outproducing everyone else anyway... don't see how this can "alert" anyone more. Its acceleration, particualrly during the war, is not impossible of course



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The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by John 3rd »

Just Posted on the Japanese Side:


You've done a bunch of Postings this morning Stanislav! As I have been perusing the records of the Thread here are the big dates/events we've chosen to incorporate into our timeline:

A. 1904-1906 Russo-Japanese War---The Imperial Fleet realizes how near of a thing the war was. The real lessons taken from the experience is that any war will be longer (1.5-2 years), be attritional, and require different planning.

B. World War One: Several officers who serve with the ASW Detachment in the Med realize that Japan MUST prepare for some sort of commerce war if she goes to war against a major power. This small faction agitates for better ASW Research, resources, and vessels. They also advocate for a Coastal Command HQ to coordinate a national response when needed.

C. Washington Treaty allows for the Japanese to build-up to 3.5 instead of 3.0.

D. London Treaty does the same thing in 1930.

E. Manchuria is invaded but the Japanese Army is reigned in and the occupation is much more peaceful. A concerted Japanese economic investment takes place here and in Korea.

F. The Army Mutiny, spoken of on the previous page, is RUTHLESSLY put down and the middle grade of the Army Officers are forced to sit back instead of assassinate at will. A much stronger Privy Council takes hold that prepares for war as well as forces the Army and Navy to somewhat better cooperate.

G. In 1939 open war breaks out in China as the Chinese Warlords will no longer be cowed. The army deploys into the region and massed fighting takes place. Once again, the progressive elements of the Japanese Army work to make the 'peace' in China much more passive. There is no Nanking...

H. As war breaks out in Europe a large set of 'observers' travel to the region and absorb 'lessons' from what they see. For the Army and Navy this means: AIRPOWER. The ASW faction sees its fears realized with the German SS success against British Commerce. The Army...well...I am not really sure what they would see...

I. In 1940 the Japanese sense opportunity and throw themselves in with Germany and Italy.

The die is cast...

Did I miss anything? Thoughts?
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

Post by Blackhorse »

E. Manchuria is invaded but the Japanese Army is reigned in and the occupation is much more peaceful. A concerted Japanese economic investment takes place here and in Korea.

F. The Army Mutiny, spoken of on the previous page, is RUTHLESSLY put down and the middle grade of the Army Officers are forced to sit back instead of assassinate at will. A much stronger Privy Council takes hold that prepares for war as well as forces the Army and Navy to somewhat better cooperate.

G. In 1939 open war breaks out in China as the Chinese Warlords will no longer be cowed. The army deploys into the region and massed fighting takes place. Once again, the progressive elements of the Japanese Army work to make the 'peace' in China much more passive. There is no Nanking...

I don't follow the logic here. If a more under-control Japanese army limited its conquest to Manchuria, there is no "Marco Polo Bridge" incident to trigger open warfare in China. I infer from your scenario that previously "cowed" Chinese warlords become "uncowed" and decide to initiate war with Japan. Who are these guys? No warlord would start a war against Japan by himself. Historically, Chiang Kai-Shek tried to ignore the Japanese ("a disease of the skin") for as long as possible so he could focus his efforts on driving out the communists ("a disease of the heart") and subduing independent warlords to the authority of the KMT. He only changed to a policy of open warfare when the Japanese conquest of Beijing made it impossible for him to ignore them.

According to your parameters methinks a more plausible (and interesting!) scenario is that the Japanese control Manchuria and Korea, as you describe, but the rest of China is controlled by the Chinese, and Chiang Kai-Shek has 20 high-quality German-trained divisions at the heart of his army. IRL, only 8 of these divisions had been trained before fighting broke out in 1937 -- and they were destroyed in the fighting around Shanghai, but it took the Japanese over three months to crush them.

. . . just a thought. [:)]

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