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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side

 
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 11:43:05 AM   
Dixie


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A few ideas:

Royal Navy
1) With the treaties non-factors the RN needs to build new warships (not sure where the money will come from though). They get some shiny new toys that were planned in the inter-war years. The last two Counties, Lions, B3 & G3 class, new carriers etc. The Aussies and Kiwis spend more on ships in an effort to combat the aggressive policies of Japan.

2) The RN takes the lessons of the First World War on board, with no treaties submarine warfare is not restricted so the UK puts more effort into protecting her trade routes. More escort vessels, Black Swans/Rivers/Hunts/Flowers/Shorehams/Grimsbys.

3) The RN puts extra effort into trade protection cruisers, but limited funds mean they cannot build everything they want. They get either more 6" cruisers or more of the Exeter/York 8" cruisers.

4) The historical outcome.

5) The Royal Navy realises the potential of carrier airpower, means extra carriers and better aircraft for the FAA. Initially means the Sea Hurricanes and Seafires are available earlier. Later it could mean that Sea Furies/Wyverns/Sea Hornets/Mosquitos see service during the war.

The RAF:
1) The historical outcome, the 'Bomber Barons' continue to rule the roost leaving the situation as it is in stock.

2) The Bomber Barons are still the major factor in RAF planning, but at a reduced influence. Instead Coastal Command gains additional influence after intensive lobbying from the Royal Navy (probably includes idea 2 for the RN). Shorts do not build the Stirling instead building more Sunderlands. More CC squadrons (mostly in the 2XX range as they were 'traditional' naval squadrons). More Beauforts available for anti-shipping duties.

3) As above, but Army Co-operation Command reaps the benefits. Means either more Blenheims available (handed on from Mid-East squadrons), Audax aircraft are replaced by Lysanders or even Tomahawks.

4) The Bomber Barons fail to excercise the control they had historically. The RAF instead operates along the lines of the Luftwaffe as a tactical air force with the addition of a stronger Coastal Command. Strategic bombers are delayed, but fighter and light/medium bomber availability is brought forward. No Tiger Force, but more tactical air power.


British Army
1) Historical outcomes.

2) Jungle warfare is taken seriously as Japan rattles the sabre. Whilst the best Indian Divisions are still packed off to the desert some remaining forces train for warfare in Malaya.


By the time the Pacific war kicks off the Commonwealth situation could be very different depending on how things have progressed elsewhere. Perhaps the government realises that Singapore is too exposed and that it is not possible to supply enough force to hold the island. Instead the money is spent on improving the fleet facilities in Ceylon/India and providing troops in India.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 31
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 1:28:51 PM   
Smeulders

 

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One interesting topic is China. If the war in China starts later in this time line, what would have happened to China ? They had more time to prepare themselves for war, so does this translate into a better army/air force and along which lines ?


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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 2:05:15 PM   
ny59giants


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When it comes to China, what improvements will be made in industry and what improvements would be made to rail and road networks??

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Post #: 33
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 2:35:52 PM   
DOCUP


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Read the Hepburn report, the two Vinson acts, some stuff about the army.   Very interesting and boring .

First Guam
They wanted to make it a major sub base with float plane capablities. They also wanted to make it withstand everything short of a major assualt. 
My thoughts on Guam.  Add some forts to it, with a decent port with and AS and AV.  AF 2 or 4 somewhere in that area, with a squadron of Float Planes and a squadron of fighters (prob a weakend one but maybe not).  Add a USN base force, a Marine CD unit, AA unit and maybe a INF RCT.  Also have some subs in port or patroling around it.

Wake, Christmas, Canton, PP, Midway islands would of prob been slightly fortified with a fully equiped and strengthed Marine CD units. AFs 2 or so.  Wake would of porb been better prepared thand the others.

PI was suppose to have alot more AC of all types by the reports that I read.  I can't fully remember them and I wasn't able to save the websites at work last nite.  They wanted more advance fighters in the PI and HI islands.  More bombers (med and heavy) were wanted and from what I read were going to be sent to PI. 

My thoughts on PI.  Bump up the P 40s some, give the PI groups more of the older ACs.  If the US gets Granad rifles send excess US equip to the PI army.  Maybe the US sees the need for med tank instead of the light tanks already in svc.  One of the tank units get the Grants/Lees before the invasion. 

From what I read the US Army would not have got much.  At most the existing units would have been filled out and some new toys but those would havestarted to come in 39 or 40.  Maybe some more CD units to cover the islands in the Pacific and PI.  The Air Force could have gotten some more P 40s and begun producing 2nd gen fighters earlier than in RL. 

The Navy was seen as the first line of defense more money would of went its way.  In 1930 the US was 150,000 tones under treaty limits.  I don't know which ship classes could of been produced to fill out the quota.  The first Vinson Act wanted to bring the Navy up to 372 shipsby 1937.  It was suppose to add 65 DDs.  I can count 51 being built around that time frame.  It also wanted 30 subs, 1 CV (Ranger), 6 cruisers, and 1184 AC.  The Ranger was built and didn't have any dedicated AC for it when built.  1937  2,000 AC were suppose to be built and 1938 3,000 AC.  Theres more to this but I can't remember it all and I"m tired.

I'll leave this for now

doc

(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 34
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 2:49:05 PM   
John 3rd


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DOCUP: I truly understand your pain at having read all that. Had the read the Vinson Acts when writing my Thesis. BORING!

Good notes regarding the islands and Philippines.

1. Concur with building up and fortifying Guam more.
2. Wake would get more attention.

Philippines
1. Slightly more fighters.
2. What about 1-2 2EB squadrons?

Got to go to the zoo in Denver so cannot run farther then that!


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Post #: 35
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 3:17:51 PM   
Jo van der Pluym


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

If ya want, can get ya'll a much more detailed Dutch OOB and deployment from the DEI scenario we made for ourselves. Has everything (almost) that Jo van der Pluym and Harald Velemans have been mentioning, too.


For the Perfect War mod have I the following suggestion for the NEI as reaction on the Japanese building programms

Here suggestions for the NEI land oob:

I have read a article from the Militairy Spectator (A magazine for militay personel) that in 1941 is to start to reorganize there forces on Java. The plans where that on the end of 1942 the forces on Java exist out 6 Brigades, each 2 Infantrybataljons mechanized on Overvalwagens, 1 Gevechtswagen bataljon with 90 AFV's (Light Tanks, Armored Cars) and 1 SP Artillerybataljon. And this then from start of the scenario.

Also you can add the 1st Para Commando Battle Group. This is made after the war from Korps Insulinde and Dutch 2nd Troop 10 Inter-Allied Commando and the 1st Paratroop Company in the NEI. This can mayby added medio 1942?

Strengthed the Coastal and air defense units


Here suggestions for the NEI air oob as reaction on the Japanese:

To add a Fighter Airgroup at the start equipped with Fokker G-I Jachtkruisers
To add to each fighter group at the start s squadron equipped with hurricanes or P-40


Here suggestions for the NEI Naval oob as reaction and the Japanese building programm

To add 2 or 3 cruiserser of the following Eendracht Class at the start of the war
Names are: Zeven Provinciën, Eendracht and Kijkduin

http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Eendracht.htm:

To add the other 3 destroyers of the Callenburgh class at the start of the war and convert the Isaac Sweers of this class as design. Names are: Gerard Callenburgh, Isaac Sweers, Tjerk Hiddes and Philips van Almonde

http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Callenburgh.htm

To add the Destroyer Van Galen of the Admiralen class. As they was never sunk in Rotterdam by the Germans

http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Admiralen.htm

To convert Jacob van Heemskerck of the Tromp class as design at the start of the war
http://www.netherlandsnavy.nl/Tromp.htm

To add a CVE or CVL



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Post #: 36
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 3:26:55 PM   
oldman45


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Here are some excerpts that might add some insight.

The Hepburn Board. -- On June 7, 1938, acting Secretary of the Navy Charles Edison appointed a board consisting of Rear Admiral Arthur J. Hepburn, Commandant of the Twelfth Naval District, as senior member, and Rear Admiral Edward J. Marquart, Captain James S. Woods, Captain Arthur L. Bristol, Jr., Captain Ralph Whitman, C.E.C., as members, with Lieutenant Commander William E. Hilbert as recorder.

The board, which became known as the Hepburn Board, made an exhaustive survey of the strategic needs in connection with the naval defense of the United States and of existing facilities for meeting those needs. In an outstanding report submitted to Congress on December 27, 1938, the board recommended the establishment of new air bases and the expansion of existing bases to provide three major air bases on each coast, one in the Canal Zone, and one in Hawaii; with outlying operating bases in the West Indies, Alaska, and our Pacific island possessions. The board also recommended that the naval air training station at Pensacola be greatly enlarged and that possibly an additional air training station be established at Corpus Christi, Texas; new submarine bases be established in Alaska and the mid-Pacific area, and several existing stations be improved or retained. Some additional facilities were suggested for the existing destroyer bases at Philadelphia and San Diego. No new mine bases were considered necessary, but certain deficiencies were noted in existing bases. A general priority schedule was set up, based on the necessity for providing facilities when the ships and aircraft authorized by the Vinson bill would be completed. In addition, there was a list of projects, considered to be of immediate strategic importance, which should be undertaken at the earliest practicable date. These items were: (1) improvement of air facilities at Kaneohe Bay. Hawaii; (2) submarine and air bases at Wake Island, Midway Island, and Guam; (3) air facilities at Johnston Island and Palmyra Island; (4) air and submarine bases at Kodiak and Sitka; (5) and submarine facilities at San Juan, Puerto Rico.3

In making its studies and formulating its report, the Hepburn Board drew upon the great mass of plans and projects that had been developed by the various bureaus of the Navy as being desirable. As Admiral Hepburn testified at the Congressional hearings on his report, "I would say that every item that the board has suggested has been considered in the past some time by one department or another or by the Joint Board involved, and they have been put down as projects to be attained when they can get the money."4 The board performed an invaluable service in taking all these proposals and, within the framework of definite strategic necessities and available facilities, formulating a comprehensive and coordinated plan for development, especially in the field of aircraft.

Although the estimated cost of the programs set up by the Hepburn Board report was $326,216,000, the first request for authorization from Congress to initiate the program was for $65,000,000 to cover a three-year program. However, events were mounting rapidly, and by the time this program was well under way it had been overshadowed by the need for even greater and more expensive developments. In the general defense program that was to begin a year later, practically all the board's recommendations, except those relating to Guam, were carried out and contributed materially to our position when war actually developed.

Yards and Docks "Bible". -- The Vinson-Trammell treaty-strength bill of 1934 and the Vinson 20 percent increase bill of 1938 had provided merely for increases in ships and aircraft, and, aside from a few minor items for replacement of tools and equipment, there was no corresponding increase in our shore facilities. It had been repeatedly called to the attention of Congress that the shore establishment was lagging behind the fleet and especially with the projected increases, there was real danger that the efficiency of the forces afloat would be impaired by the lack of necessary shore facilities. Although additional funds were being voted for new ships, little was being granted for expansion of the shore facilities which would carry on the ship building and maintain the ships when they were built.


Tough reading but here is the link building bases

All we need to do now is find a happy point to begin to change history for the US. Keeping in mind that Congress does not want to do anything till the treaty expires in '36. Unless the scope of the Allied response to Japan is modified in the 1920's its going to be hard to find the money to do a lot of changes.

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Post #: 37
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 4:42:32 PM   
oldman45


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I really like the idea of Short making more Sunderlands instead of Sterlings. Always had a soft spot for the Sunderlands.

For those better informed about the naval treaties and British politics, what if the navies of Canada, NZ and Australia were given more heavy ships to get around the treaty. Was that possible at all? I know in my reading, NZ really didn't have a navy until after the war or late in the war, what if they were given that status before the war?

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 5:39:37 PM   
Terminus


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Would be unlikely. There was no political will in the dominions to foot that sort of expense.

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 6:14:53 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1927
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From: Eastern US
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Love to hear more from you on this as well. You can always find enough corn for a side dish in a big enough pile of Cavalry horse manure

[ed] redleg devil made me say that. Garry Owen, bro.


Hmmm . . . horse-corn. Yum.

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Post #: 40
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 7:15:14 PM   
RevRick


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Been playing with the paint program...

Whomped up a couple of Omaha mods...






Attachment (1)

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 7:16:15 PM   
RevRick


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And, here's t'other one!






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 42
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 7:38:15 PM   
kfsgo

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Would be unlikely. There was no political will in the dominions to foot that sort of expense.


That being the case, article 8 of the London Naval Treaty is interesting:

quote:

Article 8

Subject to any special agreements which may submit them to limitation, the following vessels are exempt from limitation:
(a) Naval surface combatant vessels of 600 tons (610 metric tons) standard displacement and under;
(b) Naval surface combatant vessels exceeding 600 tons (610 metric tons), but not exceeding 2,000 tons (2,032 metric tons) standard displacement, provided they have none of the following characteristics:
(1) Mount a gun above 6.1 inch (155 mm) calibre;
(2) Mount more than four guns above 3 inch (76 mm) calibre;
(3) Are designed or fitted to launch torpedoes;
(4) Are designed for a speed greater than twenty knots.


So - the CW might add a few larger sloops - something along the lines of the FR Bougainvilles (so 2000t, 18kts, long range, 2-3 5.5-6in guns, enough AA to scare off a floatplane, minimal A/S equip); there seem to have been several dozen ~1000t ships built from the early 1930s onwards (including several in Australia) - bet you could have squeezed a few bigger ones in without any trouble. Can never have too many of that sort of thing, can you? Of course, you've then to explain why they're loitering around Sydney and not off hunting U-boats...hell, you could even posit that the FNFL get a couple of the Bougainvilles that actually ended up with the Vichy govt - dump'em in New Caledonia and everyone's happy.

One other "flavour" possibility - add Portuguese forces as belligerents? The bases exist already, and it gives you a couple of sloops and maybe a destroyer or two and a submarine or two eventually; doubt you'd get much in the way of land forces, but any would be 'not nothing', so to speak.

(in reply to Terminus)
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 8:41:44 PM   
Blackhorse


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Well, OK. If the "kindler, gentler" Japanese simply must hold most of the Chinese economic centers at game-start, then how about this:


A BRIEF REVISIONIST HISTORY OF THE START OF THE "WAR OF RESISTANCE" AGAINST JAPAN

All through 1937 and 1938, Japan consolidates its hold in Manchuria, continues to support friendly warlords and collaborationists, and keeps political pressure on the KMT regime to advance Japan's China Autonomous Movement policy.

The first series of agreements banned the KMT from a political or military presence in the provinces ranged between Beijing and Manuchuria and Mongolia. Although the Japanese did not occupy these provinces, the political vacuum made it easy for them to establish friendly collaborationist regimes. In China, Chiang is willing to trade space for time, as his focus is on making the National Revolutionary Army a professional force, and his hope is to defeat the Communists before engaging Japan in open warfare.

However, in the aftermath of the Anti-Comintern Pact (Novemenber, 1936), the Japanese put increasing pressure on the German government to stop assisting the Chinese military reorganization. By early 1938, German equipment shipments had stopped, and its military advisors were withdrawn. By then, 20 divisions had been trained and equipped to German standards, and were led by officers from the Whampoa military academy who were (mostly) loyal to Chiang. As the Germans leave, Chiang turns to the Soviet Union for assistance. Stalin provides aid, despite Chiang's continued pogroms against the communists. Stalin's cold-blooded calculation is that Japan is less likely to attack the USSR if it is tied down in China, and he puts aside ideology to give material support to Chiang.

The KMT-Japanese agreements covering northern China are vague (what does a ban on 'political activity' mean?) and open for dispute. There are incidents, and guerillas organized against Japanese puppet administrators, but the Japanese do not seek to push into Beijing or beyond, and an uneasy truce prevails.

Late in 1938, the Japanese shift the focus of their political pressure to Southern China. Since a 1932 incident, China's military was barred from the Shanghai region. Throughout the 1930s Japan uses its economic and military presence to build a network of dependent local governments. In 1938, Tokyo seeks to extend its China Autonomous Movement to the Shanghai region, and force Chiang to make the same concessions there, as he had in the north. With much of his army engaged in a major campaign to crush the Communists in the north, Chiang agrees, although his policy of appeasing Japan is becoming increasingly unpopular throughout China.

The Japanese install Chiang's former KMT rival Wang Jingwei, as ruler of the Shanghai region. In early 1939, Wang declares his government to be the legitimate government of all of China. Wang is clearly backed by powerful Japanese industrial and military leaders in China, but his proclamation wrong-foots the Tokyo government, which does not immediately rein him in.

Both Wang and Chiang force Japan's hand. Chiang sees Wang as a direct threat to his control of China. Chiang makes a hasty truce with the Communists and sends the 19th Route Army, including two of his German-trained divisions, to confront Wang's collaborationist troops that are moving through Jiangsu province towards the Chinese capital at Nanking. At the Tai Hu incident of August 29th, 1939, the KMT's National Revolutionary Army crushes Wang's troops near Wusih, and follows them on the road to Shanghai. The road is blocked by Japanese marines, and open warfare between Japan and China soon ensues.

Chiang sends the bulk of his German-trained divisions to Shanghai. Initially unprepared for a full-out war, it takes the Japanese ninth months to break the siege of Shanghai; when they do, the flower of Chiang's National Revolutionary Army has been destroyed. The routed KMT troops fall back and try to rally at Nanking, but the city falls in September, 1940. The Japanese troops are less-disciplined than they might be; their 200,000 casualties since the war began include most of the best small-unit leaders. The troops are exhausted by the fighting, maddened by the vicious Chinese opposition, and exhilarated by the prospect that the fall of the Chinese capital will mean the end of the war. It is the perfect recipe for the "Rape of Nanking."

But Chiang does not surrender. He moves his seat of government inland, first to Wuhan, then, after repeated air and naval bombardments, to Chungking. He directs the transfer of Chinese industry to the Chungking area. China's resistance has thrilled and impressed the West. Even before the Germans invade Russia in 1941, Stalin has scaled down his support for Chiang. As the Russians step down, the Americans step up. While America remains isolationist, Roosevelt is concerned by the pace of the Japanese build-up, and interested in developing China as a friendly power. He supports the proposal for an "American Volunteer Group" in China. By November, 1941, the 1st and 2nd AVGs, equipped with early-model P-40 and A-20 aircraft originally destined for England, have arrived at air bases in China and their air crews are ready to enter the fight.

After the capture of Nanking, the Japanese government takes time to reconstitute and reinforce the army, and restore its discipline. The army refits and consolidates its hold throughout 1941. Elsewhere in China, the Japanese occupy the puppet territories of the north, and capture Beijing after a brief, brisk battle. The Navy is engaged with a blockade of China, and bringing troops to occupy Canton and the port cities. By November, 1941 Japan controls the entire coast except for Wenchow and Pakhoi, and the international enclaves at Hong Kong, Macao, and Kwangchowan. The main army, at Nanking, is refit, and preparing for a campaign against Wuhan.

----------------

This scenario gives Japan at-start control of:
All the Chinese coastal cities (+ Canton) that they normally have
The cities along the line Shanghai-Nanking, plus all adjacent cities
The northern cities along the line Tienstin-Peiping-Kalgow-Tatung-Kweisu-Paotow and everything to the (map) east

China gains control of:
The Wuhan area (Hanchow + Wuchang) and the surrounding inland cities (Ichang, Anking, Nanchang)
The northern inland area bounded by Sinyang, Suchow and Chengting

China's military strength ends up about the same as is stock AE. The better-trained army fights longer and harder, but is eventually chewed up as badly as IRL.

China should have more industry in Wuhan and Chungking -- in this scenario Chiang has a lot more time to evacuate factories inland.

. . . and China gets both AVG groups (P-40Bs, and A-20As) deployed in China at start. China should also get earlier reinforcements for its own air force.










quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
According to your parameters methinks a more plausible (and interesting!) scenario is that the Japanese control Manchuria and Korea, as you describe, but the rest of China is controlled by the Chinese, and Chiang Kai-Shek has 20 high-quality German-trained divisions at the heart of his army. IRL, only 8 of these divisions had been trained before fighting broke out in 1937 -- and they were destroyed in the fighting around Shanghai, but it took the Japanese over three months to crush them.

. . . just a thought.

Not sure that would work in terms of the game parameters, Joel. Having Japan do invasion and amphib ops against China might break the shipping and troop availability model. Think Japan needs a foothold on the coastal areas of China before opening day. This gives them the shipyards and factories they need to keep the Econ model from breaking down, but also forces them to use that China Expeditionary Army for actual ops, rather than a cheap source of reinforcements.

The IJ Army coulda been slapped hard, but never totally suppressed. And Hakku Ichiu was endemic in the culture. And Japan really, really, really thought it had certain rights in China.

Maybe the 'Marco Polo Bridge' thing happened somewhere else or a bit later (put a pressure cooker on med and it will still explode after a longer time). Maybe they didn't whack Zhang Tso-Lin when they did, but poisoned the swine a year or two later, after Chiang Kai-shek got beligerent in Beijing and he did nothing. And then, for lack of anything better to do, they went after Peanut. So there's Beijing, and it's entirely plausible for Japan to go after the industrialized coast, even down to Canton.

Heck, that would be the political sharpie in the butt that would tick off the US China lobby and get things moving. People tend to learn how to live with slowly rising levels of crap. Today ain't that much worse from yesterday, so ... Ok, then rather than the slowly rising ramp of tension, Japan gets a longer time frame in which to develop infrastructure a bit more. Then, when the fewmets finally do hit the windmill, it has the same "prompt" impact on the West's bleeding heart's as Nanking.

Just trying to find a plausible scenario where Japan starts in roughly the same circumstances, but has a hiatus in which to develop industry and discover efficiencies.

Love to hear more from you on this as well. You can always find enough corn for a side dish in a big enough pile of Cavalry horse manure

[ed] redleg devil made me say that. Garry Owen, bro.



_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 44
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 9:07:44 PM   
PaxMondo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

What I meant was if the Japanese hadn't drawn so much attention to their program of "super" ships, the West might have ignored it far longer.

Good observation, and quite likely true. Westerners, those in power at least, were far from convinced about air naval until too late. Take away the Yamato and her sisters, and the IJN is looked upon like the Italian Navy by USN and RN. That would not be a good thing at all, much lower preparation. Very scary for the allies in '42 under this scenario ...

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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 9:12:08 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse
Well, OK. If the "kindler, gentler" Japanese simply must hold most of the Chinese economic centers at game-start, then how about this:

You must have been chasing Pancho Villa and chewing horse-corn. That was brilliant !! Thought your take on Wang Jingwei was absolutely inspired.

It does it all. Gives Japan a hiatus for development; keeps the tension level up there; corrals the China lobby in the US politically (cavalry pun); gets Japan on the mainland, but forces her to get 'expiditionary'; ratchets things up along a more prompt slope, leading to realtively historical steel/resource cut-offs, and even has a media packet of raped nuns and nurses.

I am seriously impressed. And I can buy into that whole thing. Hey, John, I think you found the guy who gets to write your scenario background. Woof !!

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Post #: 46
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 9:20:32 PM   
Terminus


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Very cool scenario, Blackhorse!

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Post #: 47
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 9:45:53 PM   
FatR

 

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On Allied (or Japanese) pre-war fortifications in the Pacific: IRL both sides already had years to build whatever they wanted and could there. Why radically more improvements?

Besides, there is no pressing reason for US to build up Guam or Wake. Guam is too isolated. Without investment of comparable to, say, historically made into defence of Luzon, it is just sending troops where they will be cut off and waiting for rescue. And why Wake needs more defences, if USN expects to start (and end) the war by launching an island-hopping offensive through the Central Pacific with superior numbers? In the text provided by oldman45 above might be notices that Wake is seen as a future base for air and sub operations, not a forward outpost in great danger... Prom pre-PH viewpoint, the Japanese should be thinking about defending in the region.

If anything might be seen as needing improvements in the first place, it is the bases in Northern Australia and New Guinea, that were supposed to form a line of communications to DEI and Philippines.

On Malaya, while I'm at it: Sir Robin strategy can only be used as a prelude for evacuating Malaya and Singapore entirely (politically unacceptable), because if bases in the Northern Malaya are left to Japaneese, Singapore itself will come under air assault and basing the fleet there will become impossible (Strait of Malacca will be closed by Japanese aviation as well, forcing any reinforcement convoys to Malaya/Brunei take a long way). Of course, this just illustrates, that defending Malaya while Japanese control seas and air is an impossible task. Any plausible defensive plan requires bringing more of the British fleet or airforce from Europe. Which is not impossible, of course.

< Message edited by FatR -- 8/14/2011 9:50:41 PM >

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 48
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 9:52:38 PM   
Terminus


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You can't plan to abandon Singapore. That's political suicide.

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Post #: 49
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 10:12:36 PM   
FatR

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

You can't plan to abandon Singapore. That's political suicide.

As I noted, unacceptable.

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Post #: 50
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 10:23:07 PM   
Terminus


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Sorry, misread your post.

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Post #: 51
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 10:24:45 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR
Besides, there is no pressing reason for US to build up Guam or Wake. Guam is too isolated. Without investment of comparable to, say, historically made into defence of Luzon, it is just sending troops where they will be cut off and waiting for rescue. And why Wake needs more defences, if USN expects to start (and end) the war by launching an island-hopping offensive through the Central Pacific with superior numbers? In the text provided by oldman45 above might be notices that Wake is seen as a future base for air and sub operations, not a forward outpost in great danger... Prom pre-PH viewpoint, the Japanese should be thinking about defending in the region.


Terms of the Washington Naval treaty prevented the US from increasing fortifications anywhere West of Hawaii. Something to consider if you want to change the terms of the treaty in the scenario.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 52
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 10:29:03 PM   
Terminus


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+1

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Post #: 53
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 11:36:00 PM   
DOCUP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

DOCUP: I truly understand your pain at having read all that. Had the read the Vinson Acts when writing my Thesis. BORING!

Good notes regarding the islands and Philippines.

1. Concur with building up and fortifying Guam more.
2. Wake would get more attention.

Philippines
1. Slightly more fighters.
2. What about 1-2 2EB squadrons?

Got to go to the zoo in Denver so cannot run farther then that!



Nice storyline Blackhorse.

John if I may call you John? And hope you had a great day at the Zoo.

PI I agree with slightly more fighers and 2 squadrons of bombers. Maybe some Havocs and Banshees. (I really like DBs now)
Witht he treaty gone maybe some fortification in the PI would have been built.

Your idea of having the 3 New Mexico BBs in the PI at the start. Would the Alantic command allow that since the Pacific Fleet still had all of its BBs floating at PH.

I've read some articles online about the modernisation of the Big Five, if anyone would want to share what the books say about the plans for them that would be great.

A thought just popped into my head. A little out there. What about some of the French Fleet defects (disobeys orders) leaves the Med and joins the free French in the Pacific?

FatR
Wake could prob have a little fortifications 1 or so and bring the Marine CD unit up to strenght. I agree the islands should be brought up a little bit between PH and Oz.

doc

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 54
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 11:38:14 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 11316
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
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Blackhorse: Your 'history' is EXCELLENT! I like the ideas, progression, and situation that players would have for the start of the war. Very different and, possibly, exciting...

I think the Nine Power Pact precluding base fortification is quite important to remain intact, however, as FatR said there is lots of time to implement base building for the Allies. Here is a proposal:

Central Pacific Air Bridge:
Midway and Wake--Raise Forts by 2, have a full Marine CD unit in place, small BF, small Construction Bat, and a squadron of PBYs in place on Day One. Essential bases that would be highly favored by Hepburn for immediate improvement as the air bridge to Philippines and front door to Hawaii.

Guam--Raise Forts by 1, add a partial Marine unit, tiny BF, and raise AF by 1. This base will fall no matter what so it doesn't get as much attention other then improvements to allow aircraft movement to Philippines.


South Pacific Air Bridge:
Have preliminary work starting--just in case the Central Pacific FALLS --with detachments at Palmyra, Canton, Suva, Noumea, and Port Moresby. These could simply be add-on Construction Battalions and small Marine Inf units for protection.

Many of these units could start at 25-40% and, if allowed to fill out, could be highly useful as the war begins...




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Post #: 55
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 11:46:32 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 11316
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From: La Salle, Colorado
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

DOCUP: I truly understand your pain at having read all that. Had the read the Vinson Acts when writing my Thesis. BORING!

Good notes regarding the islands and Philippines.

1. Concur with building up and fortifying Guam more.
2. Wake would get more attention.

Philippines
1. Slightly more fighters.
2. What about 1-2 2EB squadrons?

Got to go to the zoo in Denver so cannot run farther then that!



Nice storyline Blackhorse.

John if I may call you John? And hope you had a great day at the Zoo.

PI I agree with slightly more fighers and 2 squadrons of bombers. Maybe some Havocs and Banshees. (I really like DBs now)
Witht he treaty gone maybe some fortification in the PI would have been built.

Your idea of having the 3 New Mexico BBs in the PI at the start. Would the Alantic command allow that since the Pacific Fleet still had all of its BBs floating at PH.

I've read some articles online about the modernisation of the Big Five, if anyone would want to share what the books say about the plans for them that would be great.

A thought just popped into my head. A little out there. What about some of the French Fleet defects (disobeys orders) leaves the Med and joins the free French in the Pacific?

FatR
Wake could prob have a little fortifications 1 or so and bring the Marine CD unit up to strenght. I agree the islands should be brought up a little bit between PH and Oz.

doc




You may certainly Sir!

The zoo was a lot of fun. We had 4 of my former college students (now turning 29-30) and their families get together with my wife and boys. Good time had by all and Beau Jo's pizza cannot be beaten!

Reactions:
1. Figure bump the Philippine AF by (say) 18-24 P-40s, 1 Squadron of A-20 (12-16), and a B-25 or A-20/SBD Squadron (12-16). This would add a bit of teeth to the Philippine AF.

2. How about the STUPID American Commander in the Philippines actually plans and FOLLOWS the plan to retreat to Bataan? Raise the Forts there and add 10-20,000 Supply within the hex. Wouldn't be much but it would help...

3. Am not sure regarding King's view on the Atlantic Fleet but placing a few BBs in Manila sure would be fun. How about even a pair of the older BBs from Pearl? The BBs could be supported by a couple of cruisers and 6-8 more DDs.

4. Big Five modernization plans? I have no knowledge in this area.

5. The French Fleet is an interesting thought...


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(in reply to DOCUP)
Post #: 56
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 11:54:58 PM   
DOCUP


Posts: 2396
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline

Glad you had a great time at the zoo. I love the Colombus zoo. My GF says I go to visit my relatives (baboons).

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Blackhorse: Your 'history' is EXCELLENT! I like the ideas, progression, and situation that players would have for the start of the war. Very different and, possibly, exciting...

I think the Nine Power Pact precluding base fortification is quite important to remain intact, however, as FatR said there is lots of time to implement base building for the Allies. Here is a proposal:

Central Pacific Air Bridge:
Midway and Wake--Raise Forts by 2, have a full Marine CD unit in place, small BF, small Construction Bat, and a squadron of PBYs in place on Day One. Essential bases that would be highly favored by Hepburn for immediate improvement as the air bridge to Philippines and front door to Hawaii.

Guam--Raise Forts by 1, add a partial Marine unit, tiny BF, and raise AF by 1. This base will fall no matter what so it doesn't get as much attention other then improvements to allow aircraft movement to Philippines.


South Pacific Air Bridge:
Have preliminary work starting--just in case the Central Pacific FALLS --with detachments at Palmyra, Canton, Suva, Noumea, and Port Moresby. These could simply be add-on Construction Battalions and small Marine Inf units for protection.

Many of these units could start at 25-40% and, if allowed to fill out, could be highly useful as the war begins...





I like this idea.


(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 57
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/14/2011 11:58:58 PM   
DOCUP


Posts: 2396
Joined: 7/7/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd


quote:

ORIGINAL: DOCUP


quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

DOCUP: I truly understand your pain at having read all that. Had the read the Vinson Acts when writing my Thesis. BORING!

Good notes regarding the islands and Philippines.

1. Concur with building up and fortifying Guam more.
2. Wake would get more attention.

Philippines
1. Slightly more fighters.
2. What about 1-2 2EB squadrons?

Got to go to the zoo in Denver so cannot run farther then that!



Nice storyline Blackhorse.

John if I may call you John? And hope you had a great day at the Zoo.

PI I agree with slightly more fighers and 2 squadrons of bombers. Maybe some Havocs and Banshees. (I really like DBs now)
Witht he treaty gone maybe some fortification in the PI would have been built.

Your idea of having the 3 New Mexico BBs in the PI at the start. Would the Alantic command allow that since the Pacific Fleet still had all of its BBs floating at PH.

I've read some articles online about the modernisation of the Big Five, if anyone would want to share what the books say about the plans for them that would be great.

A thought just popped into my head. A little out there. What about some of the French Fleet defects (disobeys orders) leaves the Med and joins the free French in the Pacific?

FatR
Wake could prob have a little fortifications 1 or so and bring the Marine CD unit up to strenght. I agree the islands should be brought up a little bit between PH and Oz.

doc




You may certainly Sir!

The zoo was a lot of fun. We had 4 of my former college students (now turning 29-30) and their families get together with my wife and boys. Good time had by all and Beau Jo's pizza cannot be beaten!

Reactions:
1. Figure bump the Philippine AF by (say) 18-24 P-40s, 1 Squadron of A-20 (12-16), and a B-25 or A-20/SBD Squadron (12-16). This would add a bit of teeth to the Philippine AF.

2. How about the STUPID American Commander in the Philippines actually plans and FOLLOWS the plan to retreat to Bataan? Raise the Forts there and add 10-20,000 Supply within the hex. Wouldn't be much but it would help...

3. Am not sure regarding King's view on the Atlantic Fleet but placing a few BBs in Manila sure would be fun. How about even a pair of the older BBs from Pearl? The BBs could be supported by a couple of cruisers and 6-8 more DDs.

4. Big Five modernization plans? I have no knowledge in this area.

5. The French Fleet is an interesting thought...



1. Sounds good

2. Sounds even better. This does give PI some teeth. Prob cause some fits with the Japanese.

3. I think a pair of older BBs from PH sounds nice. Makes this area very interesting early on for both sides.

Very interesting, very interesting here.

doc

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 58
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/15/2011 1:07:38 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 11316
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
How about sisterships Nevada and Oklahoma in the Philippines?

We could then add the Idaho's (New Mexico, Mississippi, and Idaho) at Pearl. Nine targets and not eight!

As to Malaya, why not work one of the defense plans I read about where the Britsh actually create a line somewhere along the southern 1/3 of the Peninsula? One could raise Forts on that line and actually create a semi-defensible location outside of Singapore. Would be nice to allow the Brits a chance to hold for a bit outside of the great Bastion itself.

I like the ideas thrown out about the changes to the Dutch. JWE: Are these changes you made in the smaller DEI Mod?


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Post #: 59
RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: Allied Side - 8/15/2011 1:16:30 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41361
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
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It's not very realistic for any USN battlewagons to be at Manilla. Besides, they'll just be free points for the Jap player: within range of about 7000 Jap airbases, repair facilities close to non-existent... Bad mojo...

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Post #: 60
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