Future plans re a 1.05 version
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- Joel Billings
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Future plans re a 1.05 version
This post is for those interested in what we are working on and when we’re likely to release the next public beta version. At the moment Pavel is working hard on a 1.05 version (Jim and Trey have also been making lots of data/scenario fixes and changes). As you may have seen in another thread, Pavel has already added some increased information to Battle Site reports so we can more easily look into the details of combat. Depending on what we find, a few combat changes will likely be made, but exactly what changes will be made is not yet known (this includes what will or won't change with regards the infamous Soviet Attack Doctrine rule). We do think there will be some improvements made in combat, but this is not the main focus of 1.05. Here’s a rough list of items that we expect will get some work (I don’t want to go into full details yet because it’s likely to change some from our current plan as we implement and test the changes):
1) Changes to fort building that will reduce the number of very high fort levels and make it harder to build high level forts in the rear (fortified Zone/Region units will become more important for this). Refitting units will build slower. Increase the decay rates of low level forts, and further reduce fort building during mud.
2) Static units won’t go out of static when retreated or routed, and no units may be put in static mode in 1941 (the latter should be a house rule now as far as I’m concerned).
3) Changes to national morale levels. Basically Motorized, Cavalry and Mountain units will get varying amounts of higher national morale levels. This should especially help German units retain their higher morale and experience of their Motorized formations (Panzer and Motorized Divisions). Some other changes to national morale levels and replacement morale levels, most small for the Axis, but for the Soviets a major change to have their morale slightly higher at start in 41 but declining to reach a low in 42. It will then rise again and reach higher levels by late 43 then in the current game. We think this will better simulate what happened in the war as the Soviet losses added up and they found themselves with very poor armies in 42, but by the end of the war with much more efficient armies with better doctrine. Remember, morale as used here is not like morale in a Napoleonic game, it represents the training levels and doctrine capabilities of the countries more than reflecting the willingness of the soldiers to fight.
4) A few FOW changes.
5) Lower disabled return rate for Soviets and slightly decreased Soviet manpower multiplier in 1942.
6) A few targeted changes in the air model to better reflect Soviet production issues with their aircraft and natural attrition of older aircraft for both sides due to reaching their life expectancy. Changes to the flak and CAP to reduce the effectiveness of airfield bombing missions.
7) Some additional limitations on Soviet amphibious capacity in the Black Sea.
8) Ability to prevent isolation through sufficient airlift of supplies to airbases inside a pocket.
9) Account for Hiwi’s used by Germans to fill in for support staff that was shifted to combat elements.
There will probably be other changes made, and some of these may not happen or may be different from what I’ve listed. I’m not promising that everything above will make it into 1.05. I’d say the main goal of this 1.05 is to improve the situation in 1942 to better reflect the situation of the armies at that time, and trying to reduce the large fort belts that are too easily produced. Also improve the manpower levels and abilities of the armies through time to better reflect their capabilities. Of course, we don’t want to impact 41 too much and we would like to see the Germans be able to absorb a little more punishment later on, but we also want the Soviets to be able to develop an army that doesn’t just have to bash its way hex by hex all the way to Berlin.
It will probably take several weeks for us to program and test the planned changes, and any bugs that come up (old or new) could delay things further. With that said we’d like to get a new public beta out by early to mid September. With these changes being fairly substantial, you can expect a public beta process that will take some time. IIRC, it took 2½ months from the first 1.04 public beta release until we released the 1.04.36 official version. I’m not saying it will take as long with 1.05, but it will probably take some time.
We appreciate the comments and saves of players on the forum. We try to read as much as we can and analyze exactly how the game is working out and where we can make improvements, and this takes input from players, testers and the dev team. We don’t think the game is perfect, but we also don’t think the game is broken (far from it, we think overall the game is quite good and fun to play). Discussion is healthy as long as it’s backed up with data and does not degenerate into personal attacks. We know if you are posting on this forum you are passionate about your gaming and what you want to see in a game. I hope it’s clear that the dev team is just as passionate about putting out a great product as you are about playing it. We won’t always agree with you (we often don’t agree within the team), but we are listening.
1) Changes to fort building that will reduce the number of very high fort levels and make it harder to build high level forts in the rear (fortified Zone/Region units will become more important for this). Refitting units will build slower. Increase the decay rates of low level forts, and further reduce fort building during mud.
2) Static units won’t go out of static when retreated or routed, and no units may be put in static mode in 1941 (the latter should be a house rule now as far as I’m concerned).
3) Changes to national morale levels. Basically Motorized, Cavalry and Mountain units will get varying amounts of higher national morale levels. This should especially help German units retain their higher morale and experience of their Motorized formations (Panzer and Motorized Divisions). Some other changes to national morale levels and replacement morale levels, most small for the Axis, but for the Soviets a major change to have their morale slightly higher at start in 41 but declining to reach a low in 42. It will then rise again and reach higher levels by late 43 then in the current game. We think this will better simulate what happened in the war as the Soviet losses added up and they found themselves with very poor armies in 42, but by the end of the war with much more efficient armies with better doctrine. Remember, morale as used here is not like morale in a Napoleonic game, it represents the training levels and doctrine capabilities of the countries more than reflecting the willingness of the soldiers to fight.
4) A few FOW changes.
5) Lower disabled return rate for Soviets and slightly decreased Soviet manpower multiplier in 1942.
6) A few targeted changes in the air model to better reflect Soviet production issues with their aircraft and natural attrition of older aircraft for both sides due to reaching their life expectancy. Changes to the flak and CAP to reduce the effectiveness of airfield bombing missions.
7) Some additional limitations on Soviet amphibious capacity in the Black Sea.
8) Ability to prevent isolation through sufficient airlift of supplies to airbases inside a pocket.
9) Account for Hiwi’s used by Germans to fill in for support staff that was shifted to combat elements.
There will probably be other changes made, and some of these may not happen or may be different from what I’ve listed. I’m not promising that everything above will make it into 1.05. I’d say the main goal of this 1.05 is to improve the situation in 1942 to better reflect the situation of the armies at that time, and trying to reduce the large fort belts that are too easily produced. Also improve the manpower levels and abilities of the armies through time to better reflect their capabilities. Of course, we don’t want to impact 41 too much and we would like to see the Germans be able to absorb a little more punishment later on, but we also want the Soviets to be able to develop an army that doesn’t just have to bash its way hex by hex all the way to Berlin.
It will probably take several weeks for us to program and test the planned changes, and any bugs that come up (old or new) could delay things further. With that said we’d like to get a new public beta out by early to mid September. With these changes being fairly substantial, you can expect a public beta process that will take some time. IIRC, it took 2½ months from the first 1.04 public beta release until we released the 1.04.36 official version. I’m not saying it will take as long with 1.05, but it will probably take some time.
We appreciate the comments and saves of players on the forum. We try to read as much as we can and analyze exactly how the game is working out and where we can make improvements, and this takes input from players, testers and the dev team. We don’t think the game is perfect, but we also don’t think the game is broken (far from it, we think overall the game is quite good and fun to play). Discussion is healthy as long as it’s backed up with data and does not degenerate into personal attacks. We know if you are posting on this forum you are passionate about your gaming and what you want to see in a game. I hope it’s clear that the dev team is just as passionate about putting out a great product as you are about playing it. We won’t always agree with you (we often don’t agree within the team), but we are listening.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
- sillyflower
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
Thoughtful stuff. I look forward to it.
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- heliodorus04
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
Questions:
What are "Hiwis"?
Do you expect 1.05 (beta) versions to be compatible with existing 1.04.36 campaigns?
(Sub-question: If you recommend not patching until some particular month/year, that's helpful info).
It sounds engaging, and I'm looking forward to it.
What are "Hiwis"?
Do you expect 1.05 (beta) versions to be compatible with existing 1.04.36 campaigns?
(Sub-question: If you recommend not patching until some particular month/year, that's helpful info).
It sounds engaging, and I'm looking forward to it.
Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders
- WingedIncubus
- Posts: 547
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
"Hiwis" are enlisted volunteers and auxiliaries conscripted by the German Army from occupied territories, USSR nationalists, PoWs, and Anti-communists. Cossacks and Ostlegionen are the most known example.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_%28volunteer%29
Oh, and hi. Just bought WITE and still attempting to skim through the updated manual.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiwi_%28volunteer%29
Oh, and hi. Just bought WITE and still attempting to skim through the updated manual.
RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
Thanks for telling us what's in the works. This sounds great!
------------------------------
RTW3 Designer
RTW3 Designer
RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
1) Changes to fort building
These look good, and make great sense. This will help alot in 1942 for the Germans; much less Soviet fort spam. You can argue it will hurt the Germans 43-45, but they generally have more time to set-up defense in depth.
3) Changes to national morale levels. Basically Motorized, Cavalry and Mountain units will get varying amounts of higher national morale levels. This should especially help German units retain their higher morale and experience of their Motorized formations (Panzer and Motorized Divisions).
I think many underrate the importance of this for the Germans. It's too easy for Panzers to finish the winter cooked; this recognizes the fact that Panzer units always had the best men to work with, and an espirit d' corps. Same for the German Mountain units; they were a "cut above" standard infantry. Good changes! This will help the Wehrmacht in 1942 alot (along with the reduced Soviet National Morale)
I'll be interested to see the Soviet table, but sounds like instead of the 45-50-50-50-50 currently, it would be something more like 50-45-55-60-60, give or take.
5) Lower disabled return rate for Soviets and slightly decreased Soviet manpower multiplier in 1942.
Another good change, somewhat fewer REDS in 1942
7) Some additional limitations on Soviet amphibious capacity in the Black Sea.
In the meantime, there should be Houserules on this. No Red Army D-Days!
8) Ability to prevent isolation through sufficient airlift of supplies to airbases inside a pocket.
Love this one!
9) Account for Hiwi’s used by Germans to fill in for support staff that was shifted to combat elements.
Interesting.....how are you adding to German Manpower? Will the Germans get some Manpower Production from captured Soviet Manpower centers? Or, will a % of captured Reds go into the German Manpower pool?
The Hiwis are a good add; several sources mention the importance of Hiwis to the Germans. Most here have read Beevor, which documented Hiwis being used in Combat. Either way, they should be contributing to German Manpower, and will help the Wehrmacht greatly in 42-44.
I was in the camp that Germans needs help in 1942; sounds like it's moving that way!
These look good, and make great sense. This will help alot in 1942 for the Germans; much less Soviet fort spam. You can argue it will hurt the Germans 43-45, but they generally have more time to set-up defense in depth.
3) Changes to national morale levels. Basically Motorized, Cavalry and Mountain units will get varying amounts of higher national morale levels. This should especially help German units retain their higher morale and experience of their Motorized formations (Panzer and Motorized Divisions).
I think many underrate the importance of this for the Germans. It's too easy for Panzers to finish the winter cooked; this recognizes the fact that Panzer units always had the best men to work with, and an espirit d' corps. Same for the German Mountain units; they were a "cut above" standard infantry. Good changes! This will help the Wehrmacht in 1942 alot (along with the reduced Soviet National Morale)
I'll be interested to see the Soviet table, but sounds like instead of the 45-50-50-50-50 currently, it would be something more like 50-45-55-60-60, give or take.
5) Lower disabled return rate for Soviets and slightly decreased Soviet manpower multiplier in 1942.
Another good change, somewhat fewer REDS in 1942
7) Some additional limitations on Soviet amphibious capacity in the Black Sea.
In the meantime, there should be Houserules on this. No Red Army D-Days!
8) Ability to prevent isolation through sufficient airlift of supplies to airbases inside a pocket.
Love this one!
9) Account for Hiwi’s used by Germans to fill in for support staff that was shifted to combat elements.
Interesting.....how are you adding to German Manpower? Will the Germans get some Manpower Production from captured Soviet Manpower centers? Or, will a % of captured Reds go into the German Manpower pool?
The Hiwis are a good add; several sources mention the importance of Hiwis to the Germans. Most here have read Beevor, which documented Hiwis being used in Combat. Either way, they should be contributing to German Manpower, and will help the Wehrmacht greatly in 42-44.
I was in the camp that Germans needs help in 1942; sounds like it's moving that way!
RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
"Hiwis" were mostly Russian POWs who accepted offers to become helpers in the German Army. Some were motivated by anti-communist sentiments, but most apparently accepted to escape the brutal conditions in POW camps.
In the west, most surrendered as soon as they had a chance. In the East, I believe it was standard policy in the Red Army to execute them as soon as they were captured.
oh, and looking forward to 1.05. Just picked up WITE last week and am still trying to get acclimatized.[8D]
In the west, most surrendered as soon as they had a chance. In the East, I believe it was standard policy in the Red Army to execute them as soon as they were captured.
oh, and looking forward to 1.05. Just picked up WITE last week and am still trying to get acclimatized.[8D]
- BletchleyGeek
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
Great changes,
but this particular item was a surprise to me - not to mention the brevity used to present it.
Would you mind to ellaborate a bit further, Joel? [:(]
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
4) A few FOW changes.
but this particular item was a surprise to me - not to mention the brevity used to present it.
Would you mind to ellaborate a bit further, Joel? [:(]
RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
Thanks for the update!
That was a full skeleton worth of bones!
That was a full skeleton worth of bones!
RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
These look interesting developments!! I shall be watching with interest AND anticipation.[:)]
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- Joel Billings
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
You won't see special color on the counters unless at a detection level of 5 or better (won't know if SS, Guards, etc.). Airbases won't get more than a DL of 5 from air recon. Could be some other things, but those are the items we know about for sure.
All understanding comes after the fact.
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-- Soren Kierkegaard
- Emx77
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Remember, morale as used here is not like morale in a Napoleonic game, it represents the training levels and doctrine capabilities of the countries more than reflecting the willingness of the soldiers to fight.
Joel, why don't you simply rename it to proficiency (like in TOAW)? I think it is more appropriate term.
- BletchleyGeek
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
You won't see special color on the counters unless at a detection level of 5 or better (won't know if SS, Guards, etc.). Airbases won't get more than a DL of 5 from air recon. Could be some other things, but those are the items we know about for sure.
Very interesting, thank you Joel.
RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
Thank you Joel. Much appreciated. [:)]
RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
Also can you look at automatic changing of aircraft in Soviet air groups. In my last game playing as the Soviets (which I have stopped due to a previously reported issue) in was in November 43 and still had a lot of Mig-3 and Lagg-3 equipped squadrons, even though I have small numbers of replacements the game was not automatically changing these aircraft to a newer model that was in production.
RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
Joel,
1. A suggestion for the battle icons on the map: perhaps they could indicate the result without having to read the details? A rout, hold and retreat icon would be nice...
2. Also, it is hard to note which hex is being refered to when reading the battle report - maybe the referenced hex could flash, be outlined or some other means of identification?
3. Finally, it would be very helpful if the unit info bar or detail window would show the hex location numerics.
Just a few suggestions,
Marquo
1. A suggestion for the battle icons on the map: perhaps they could indicate the result without having to read the details? A rout, hold and retreat icon would be nice...
2. Also, it is hard to note which hex is being refered to when reading the battle report - maybe the referenced hex could flash, be outlined or some other means of identification?
3. Finally, it would be very helpful if the unit info bar or detail window would show the hex location numerics.
Just a few suggestions,
Marquo
- Joel Billings
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
ORIGINAL: heliodorus04
Questions:
What are "Hiwis"?
Do you expect 1.05 (beta) versions to be compatible with existing 1.04.36 campaigns?
(Sub-question: If you recommend not patching until some particular month/year, that's helpful info).
It sounds engaging, and I'm looking forward to it.
It should be compatible, but of course if you change versions mid game the game will not play out as if you had started at the beginning. Also, data changes won't be used, although most of these are fairly minor in their impact compared to the code changes. I would not judge play balance by looking at games that changed versions mid-game. If I was playing a game, I'd be tempted to not use the new version in the old game but would instead keep a second copy on my system which I would upgrade and use in newly started games (or course from a bug finding point of view, we're happy to have everyone switch to the public betas for all games as that helps us find any bugs quicker). [:)]
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
- WingedIncubus
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
Any change to the infamous 1:1 = 2:1 odds for Russian attacks?
- Joel Billings
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Depending on what we find, a few combat changes will likely be made, but exactly what changes will be made is not yet known (this includes what will or won't change with regards the infamous Soviet Attack Doctrine rule).
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
- delatbabel
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RE: Future plans re a 1.05 version
If you're making it impossible for the Soviets to accumulate massed APs in 1941 by putting units into static mode, and also taking away the ability for static units to become active when retreated or routed (have no problems with that one btw) are you adding in the ability for static units to receive replacements or reducing the amount of attritional losses they suffer?
Otherwise I think it's going to be a very hard slog for the Soviets to mount any kind of offensive even in 1943 with the massive amount of attrition and zero replacement rule that static units are currently subjected to. The Soviets don't have enough trucks to usefully keep all of the army non-static, and putting units into static mode simply causes them to waste away with attrition in a month or so.
Otherwise I think it's going to be a very hard slog for the Soviets to mount any kind of offensive even in 1943 with the massive amount of attrition and zero replacement rule that static units are currently subjected to. The Soviets don't have enough trucks to usefully keep all of the army non-static, and putting units into static mode simply causes them to waste away with attrition in a month or so.
--
Del
Del