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Detecting mines

 
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Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 5:30:23 PM   
sztartur


Posts: 664
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Budapest,Hungary
Status: offline 		Gentlemen,

I have red the manual, and the threads in the war-room but I have no hint how to detect mines (without getting my units destroyed by them first)

Common sense would tell slow advance with infantry should do it but seems like not.

Any hint is most welcome.



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RE: Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 5:46:14 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12684
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		I think that casualties is the only way. They are buried in the ground.

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RE: Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 6:11:00 PM   
sztartur


Posts: 664
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Budapest,Hungary
Status: offline 		Then it would be certainly better if some chance of detection had been built in for the infantry if moving slow. especially infantry. Not to mention the possible engineer tanks.

Like in Steel Panthers.


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"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.", Sun Tzu

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RE: Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 6:26:02 PM   
Rick

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sztartur

Then it would be certainly better if some chance of detection had been built in for the infantry if moving slow. especially infantry. Not to mention the possible engineer tanks.

Like in Steel Panthers.



There are adjustments to minefields based on how fast your unit is moving. Slow moving units, (units using Advaqnce or Defend --> Move) are less likely to trigger a mine, than units moving at Engage --> Move, and units using Rush are more likely to trigger a mine.

Thanks
rick

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RE: Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 6:27:45 PM   
sztartur


Posts: 664
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Budapest,Hungary
Status: offline 		That is very good, but some detection is needed IMHO.

_____________________________

"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.", Sun Tzu

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RE: Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 6:38:02 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12684
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline 		From the manual

quote:

Note  that  “friendly”  minefields  are  always  visible  to  the  player  that  owns  the  minefield.
However, they are still not safe for friendly forces to cross. If you are facing a setup with enemy
minefields, they will only show up if your forces notice them or they blow up. In either case,
a small minefield marker will show you where you know an enemy minefield to be and your
forces will henceforth adjust their paths to avoid crossing that area if at all possible.


The word "notice" leads me to believe they can be detected but I don't recall ever finding them without something setting one off.


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Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

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RE: Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 7:15:54 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10394
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		It's always something that gamers want.

To be in control and micromanage all aspects of a game.

In reality there are things a battlefield commander can't always control.

Close Air Support and mines are the two most notable.

Both of these functions have extremely limited control aspects.

Unless a unit has been in the area previously the way they find mines is to step on them or drive over them. Sweeping with engineer units is very tedious work and extremely slow.

Infantry moving forward has no advantage to finding anti-tank mines unless they are jumping up and down as they move forward and generating about 300 pounds of pressure on the ground as they move. Again, the way they would find them is to set some off. Resulting in infantry casualties for those previously mentioned that were jumping up and down.

There were box mines used that were an above ground mine and at Kursk the Soviets placed minefields in the grass, on top of the ground, in front of the German advances. There is no historical data supporting that these minefields were avoided or cleared by the Germans simply because they were laid in the grass.

A huge myth in tactical wargames is that engineers can clear obstacles in just a few minutes. A single identified mine? Certainly. An entire minefield under observation and fire? Not in real life by anyone who plays these games. That's a recipe for disaster and a great way to lose your engineers for no return value.

Engineers are not a tactical tool for clearing minefields, building bridges, creating tank traps, creating abitis or road craters. In a tactical level game they are glorified assault troops where you find the demo charges, flamethrowers and elite morale ratings.

Good Hunting.

MR





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RE: Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 7:43:09 PM   
sztartur


Posts: 664
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Budapest,Hungary
Status: offline 		Historical debate will commence I believe .

Certainly prior the battle of Kursk the Russians had months to prepare. In most of the time however this is not the case. Many times a territory just have been taken under control and the minefields are laid in great haste, it is hard to believe that hundreds or thousands of mines can be laid each without any trace. It is especially hard to believe that recon troops who are specialized in exploring avenues of advance cannot detect such.

I do agree with you that detection should be made very hard and the removal lengthy but you do not need to pick up the whole minefield.


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"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.", Sun Tzu

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Post #: 8
RE: Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 7:48:15 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10394
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Exactly my point about Kursk. The mines were cleared operationally. Not tactically. Minefields are cleared before or after a battle, rarely during one. The only instance in WWII that comes to mind is at El Alamein.

Since the Germans breached the original outer layer defensive minefields the Soviets had their engineer units place new ones in front of the advancing Germans simply by laying the mines in the tall grass on top of the ground. And when did the Germans detect these mines that were simply laying on the ground? You guessed it....when they ran over them.

Good Hunting.

MR


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Post #: 9
RE: Detecting mines - 8/6/2011 8:02:57 PM   
sztartur


Posts: 664
Joined: 7/24/2002
From: Budapest,Hungary
Status: offline 		What I try to mention is that Kursk in this regard is an exception. 

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"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.", Sun Tzu

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Post #: 10
RE: Detecting mines - 8/7/2011 1:59:51 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10394
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I understand. My point was that if the Germans couldn't detect mines just laid on top of the ground before they ran over them how would they do it if they were buried?

If they were in a region where they had been in static positions for awhile that's different. They would then know where the mine fields were. Again though, they wouldn't be taken out in the time frame of a tactical battle scenario. They would try to remove in a situation where they would not get the engineers even shot at.

During wartime there is an extreme shortage of combat engineers. You don't want them breaching minefields in clear line of sight/fire of the enemy.



Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 8/7/2011 2:02:20 AM >

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