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Vietnamese Militia query

 
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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> Vietnamese Militia query Page: [1]
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Vietnamese Militia query - 8/3/2011 11:34:24 AM   
el cid again

 

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in WITP, if an Allied unit enters Northern Indochina, two static Vietnamese "divisons" appear

Why?

What phenomena do they represent?

And what slots are associated with these units. I see the numbers 3000 and 3001 on them on the map,
but these slots are empty in the editor.

It is true that a Vietnamese military force was created late in the war - when Japan gave "sovereignty" to
Bo Dai - but these were not in response to an Allied invasion of Indochina. A better case can be made
for ALLIED miltiary units that are Viethamese - notably the Interim Government in North Tonkin - and
in 1945 - the first units of the Viet Ming. Also - one might reason (I do) that the French Foreign Legion
regiment is Allied - at least after it ends up on the Allied side - successfully extracting itself from the country.
But why should Axis allied units appear early in the war if a Chinese unit enters the area? Is this a pure
game device to discourage the Allied player or is it related to something in Vietnamese history?
Post #: 1
RE: Vietnamese Militia query - 8/3/2011 11:18:12 PM   
Alfred

 

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It is a carry over from classical WITP.

Alfred

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
RE: Vietnamese Militia query - 8/4/2011 12:15:54 AM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

in WITP, if an Allied unit enters Northern Indochina, two static Vietnamese "divisons" appear

Why?

What phenomena do they represent?

And what slots are associated with these units. I see the numbers 3000 and 3001 on them on the map,
but these slots are empty in the editor.

It is true that a Vietnamese military force was created late in the war - when Japan gave "sovereignty" to
Bo Dai - but these were not in response to an Allied invasion of Indochina. A better case can be made
for ALLIED miltiary units that are Viethamese - notably the Interim Government in North Tonkin - and
in 1945 - the first units of the Viet Ming. Also - one might reason (I do) that the French Foreign Legion
regiment is Allied - at least after it ends up on the Allied side - successfully extracting itself from the country.
But why should Axis allied units appear early in the war if a Chinese unit enters the area? Is this a pure
game device to discourage the Allied player or is it related to something in Vietnamese history?



It's not when "Allied" units enter north indochina. it's when "Chinese" units enter north indochina. It's a militia response to China invading indochina. The miltia units are static, I believe.

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Post #: 3
RE: Vietnamese Militia query - 8/4/2011 8:30:43 AM   
el cid again

 

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They indeed are static. But more than that, apparently undefined. That is, the slots are not visible in the editor. Probably the formation is however.

It is true the Vietnamese do not like being dominated by the Chinese. Never mind that Vietnamese (more properly Tonkinese - they do not consider other peoples to be as good as they are) nationalism is based on the peculiar notion that "we are the pure, uncorrupted Chinese" - still they do not like being ruled from afar. Vietnamese independence dates from resistence to an invasion - when two sisters played Joan of Arc to inspire it by jumping to their deaths into the Red River rather than submit. The only time Ho Chi Minh is known to have used a near swear word is when he said "I would rather eat a hundred years of French sh.t than endure another thousand years of Chinese sh.t" So there is indeed no great love lost between them. Yet during WWII, they had a common enemy, and peculiar politics made it acceptable in China to be Viet Minh - so the concept that they would resist when the Chinese "invade" is related to nothing I know about. Chinese, British, American, French and Vietnamese organizations generally cooperated. Japan did form militias almost everywhere. This was, however, not considered needed in Vietham because of the Vichy forces present. Eventually, a militia is formed - but not a static one - and not under pressure from China. At about the same time, the Viet Minh began to field actual anti-Japanese militia of its own. Both very late in the war - so not related to this rule.


(in reply to Bradley7735)
Post #: 4
RE: Vietnamese Militia query - 8/4/2011 9:56:37 PM   
Herrbear


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

They indeed are static. But more than that, apparently undefined. That is, the slots are not visible in the editor. Probably the formation is however.

It is true the Vietnamese do not like being dominated by the Chinese. Never mind that Vietnamese (more properly Tonkinese - they do not consider other peoples to be as good as they are) nationalism is based on the peculiar notion that "we are the pure, uncorrupted Chinese" - still they do not like being ruled from afar. Vietnamese independence dates from resistence to an invasion - when two sisters played Joan of Arc to inspire it by jumping to their deaths into the Red River rather than submit. The only time Ho Chi Minh is known to have used a near swear word is when he said "I would rather eat a hundred years of French sh.t than endure another thousand years of Chinese sh.t" So there is indeed no great love lost between them. Yet during WWII, they had a common enemy, and peculiar politics made it acceptable in China to be Viet Minh - so the concept that they would resist when the Chinese "invade" is related to nothing I know about. Chinese, British, American, French and Vietnamese organizations generally cooperated. Japan did form militias almost everywhere. This was, however, not considered needed in Vietham because of the Vichy forces present. Eventually, a militia is formed - but not a static one - and not under pressure from China. At about the same time, the Viet Minh began to field actual anti-Japanese militia of its own. Both very late in the war - so not related to this rule.




The editor manual states the following. Slots 3000-3004 must be left open as these are the slots used by Japanese North Vietnamese militia units that are mobilized each time (up to a maximum of four) an Allied
unit moves into a border hex inside North Vietnam (from China to Hue).


(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 5
RE: Vietnamese Militia query - 8/5/2011 12:15:26 AM   
vonTirpitz


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My understanding is that VM actually means Vichy Militia not Vietnamese Militia. The topic has been hashed through before. Whatever the logic, accuracy or redundancy of the matter it is still a holdover from the original design.

quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This was, however, not considered needed in Vietham because of the Vichy forces present.




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RE: Vietnamese Militia query - 8/5/2011 11:46:45 AM   
el cid again

 

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Well - most of the military uits in French Indochina - pre Vichy, Vichy and post Vichy - were indeed Vietnamese troops. The ones that matter, however, were orgainzed (as indeed every French unit was organized) along the same lines as the French Army (see the Osprey books on the French Army - I, II and Foreign Legion). It did not matter if a unit was from Metropolitan France, from a colony, active or reserve - it always had the same structure. If these units were in the game - they would be more or less line units - and more or less capable of regular operations. [When the Allies landed on Madagascar, with the exception of a single battalion of what we might call reserves, made of white Frenchmen, the entire garrison was colonial troops. Yet they preserved the regime in place for a long time vs superior forces that controlled the air - as much as one could have asked of them.] I see the design problem of giving the Japanese such soldiers to move as they please - maybe outside Indochina altogether? But saying all the Vichy forces that would resist a Chinese incursion are static is a significant compromise.

First - it appears that code does not care if they are Chinese - or if they entered from China - or are even in a border hex. For my own reasons, I put two Allied units in Northern Indochina - a FFL regiment at Viet Tri (beside Hanoi) - and the interim government of the Viet Minh way up by the Chinese border where the RR was torn up (and a road runs now). That unit is indeed classified as "Chinese" - but the FFL is classified as French. The Viet Minh are in a border hex, but the FFL is not. However, on day two, two units appear - at Hanoi and at Hiaphong - exactly as the manual says. As a Japanese player, I find it useful to have a "free garrison unit" in these places I want one anyway - to prevent China from taking the industry and resources - and to prevent the FFL from taking Hanoi out of the Japanese camp (which if Hanoi were unoccupied would automatically happen in a few days). I do not really want the Japanese to get such free units. So I would like to modify them.

Where are they defined? That is the query.

A French player advised that Indohina is "too messy" to inlue Vichy units. But on review, he liked my "messy" solution - with the Vietnamese units pretty much not available to serve Japan - but eventually the FFL is an allied unit - sooner if Japan attacks it - or later on the date Japan pretty much wiped out all the rest for the Vichy units in the area. This day is marked by the takeover of a French ship - although Aramis (AP) was taken over sooner (and she is in all forms of WITP and AE - as Teia Maru). The CL is destroyed IRL by Allied bombers - to prevent her being used by the enemy. I also have Indochina mixed Axis and Allied locations - so supplies do not move to serve Japan immediately - and the act of marching up country to "unify" the regime and make it productive is a bit of an unwelcome distraction (but the price of occupation - which surely is not free). Anyway -
where are these formations defined? I might at least make them very weak.

At the very end of the war the Viet Minh fields two actual field units - and these are on the Allied side - and wholly cooperative wtih China - so easy to define. The FFL retreats into their lines, and is welcomed - because it is anti-Japanese. US and UK special operations and money are used to help the Viet Minh in this period - so they are properly Allied units. And after being attacked by the Japanese - so is the FFL. But the rest of the military forces in country are not allowed to exist - are attacked and massacred by the Japanese - except for what might be termed "militia" formed at the very end of the war to support Bao Dai - who is selected to lead the reconstituted Annamese Empire - but on a basis that is not politially viable. These units are very weak - but not static. They are not formed early or mid war - and they are not formed in reation to Allied units in country (unless Viet Minh counts).

< Message edited by el cid again -- 8/5/2011 11:47:18 AM >

(in reply to vonTirpitz)
Post #: 7
RE: Vietnamese Militia query - 8/5/2011 4:58:37 PM   
Shark7


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They are most likely defined as either a TOE ID slot or a hard code somewhere, since they do not seem to be editable. But since I've never been able to locate said units with the editor locations DB, I'm just guessing.

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Post #: 8
RE: Vietnamese Militia query - 8/5/2011 5:25:33 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

They are most likely defined as either a TOE ID slot or a hard code somewhere, since they do not seem to be editable. But since I've never been able to locate said units with the editor locations DB, I'm just guessing.


Their TOE ID slot is #2047 (you cannot see this in the editor, coded).

(in reply to Shark7)
Post #: 9
RE: Vietnamese Militia query - 8/5/2011 5:29:01 PM   
Shark7


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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

They are most likely defined as either a TOE ID slot or a hard code somewhere, since they do not seem to be editable. But since I've never been able to locate said units with the editor locations DB, I'm just guessing.


Their TOE ID slot is #2047 (you cannot see this in the editor, coded).


Thank you for clearing that up.

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'When in doubt...attack!'

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Post #: 10
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