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Rommel's Afrika Corps....

 
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Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 3:21:03 AM   
Footslogger

 

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Why did Rommel lose in Africa?
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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 3:28:39 AM   
DivePac88


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Wrong area Mate... this is the Pacific.




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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 3:30:58 AM   
Norm3


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Better question would be how did he do as well as he did.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 3:34:32 AM   
Footslogger

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Wrong area Mate... this is the Pacific.





Didn't the Aussies and Kiwis fight in Africa?

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 3:37:16 AM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger


quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Wrong area Mate... this is the Pacific.





Didn't the Aussies and Kiwis fight in Africa?


Indeed, so this topic is relevant only for it's affect on the Aussie LCU arrival dates.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 3:38:45 AM   
USS America


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Come to think of it, there is a Commonwealth East African Division or something very similarly name that also has it's arrival date in the game impacted by this topic.  

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 3:39:35 AM   
USS America


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I have to get up in 5 hours, so I had better officially disregard this thread!  

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 3:40:36 AM   
Footslogger

 

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sorry...wrong forum

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 5:25:43 AM   
Cribtop


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Short answer, the Axis needed 4 mobile German divisions to take Egypt, committed 2, and could only supply 1. There's a lot more to it, but them's the basics.

< Message edited by Cribtop -- 8/2/2011 3:53:29 PM >


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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 6:02:29 AM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Why did Rommel lose in Africa?



Not enough men, beans and bullets.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 6:08:38 AM   
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Plus the fact that Rommel was not as good a general as he is usually portrayed to have been. Brilliant divisional leader, so so army theatre commander.

Alfred

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 7:06:18 AM   
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There are a number of factors involved in the Afrika Korp's (and the Italian's) ultimate failure: Some of the key ones are listed below in no particular order:

1. Rommel did not obey orders. His original purpose was to stabilise the situation and stop the Italians from being kicked out of North Africa. But as Alfred outlined above, Rommel wanted to do what Rommel wanted to do. Because of his initial success, Hitler indulged him. It was a mistake....
2. Having pushed the Italians all the way back to Tripolitania, the British made the error of trying to help Greece - thus taking troops away from North Africa and allowing Rommel to advance into Cyrenaica.
3. Rommel never had enough men, and in particular material, to finish the job he wanted to do. When things turned sour in the Soviet Union he was always going to be struggling for both. Even had he been given more panzers, supplying them was always the problem.
4. The more he achieved (in pushing back the Commonwealth forces), the longer his supply line became. Almost everything had to go to Tripoli and then be transported to the front. That used up a good deal of the petrol - and wore out his trucks - that had been carried over even before it got to his panzers.
5. The Royal Navy was a pain in the butt and ensured supplies received were somewhat less than that expected - particularly in late 1941.
6. The Aussies, British and Poles proved a thorn in Rommel's side with their defence of Tobruk. This stubborn defence meant Rommel could not advance.
7. Malta should have been taken.
8. Ultimately the biggest error was repeating France's mistake in Spain in 1808-1814 i.e. North Africa was an unnecessary diversion for the Germans while they were engaged in the real struggle against the Soviet Union, while for the British, North Africa gave them a chance to fight - and whittle down - the enemy. Ultimately the Commonwealth would have more troops, tanks, guns and aircraft to bring to the theatre.



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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 8:02:53 AM   
JeffK


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To add my bit of Rommel bashing
quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

There are a number of factors involved in the Afrika Korp's (and the Italian's) ultimate failure: Some of the key ones are listed below in no particular order:

1. Rommel did not obey orders. His original purpose was to stabilise the situation and stop the Italians from being kicked out of North Africa. But as Alfred outlined above, Rommel wanted to do what Rommel wanted to do. Because of his initial success, Hitler indulged him. It was a mistake.... unless Hitler decided to commit to the theatre, I'm not sure 2 more Divisions would have been enough, but a proper commitment in the air and on land was needed. Hitler was more concerned in clearing out the untermensch than having a strategic view of the Med.
2. Having pushed the Italians all the way back to Tripolitania, the British made the error of trying to help Greece - thus taking troops away from North Africa and allowing Rommel to advance into Cyrenaica. Rommel was lucky, the bloody mindedness of Churchill et al to go back to Europe in 1941 via Greece saw the 2 best Commonwealth Infantry Divisions squandered in a theatre where they had no chance of winning. Rommel then moved into a battlefield where the best infantry and armour had been stripped out and replaced with barely trained Australian Infantry & British Armour. IMHO Rommel would have got pushed back if the Australian 6th Div, New Zealand Div and British 1st Armoured Bde had been at hand. Australian 7th Div was at hand and I think if this scenario took place would have been added to the available force.
3. Rommel never had enough men, and in particular material, to finish the job he wanted to do. When things turned sour in the Soviet Union he was always going to be struggling for both. Even had he been given more panzers, supplying them was always the problem. He even planned at times to survive on capturing supply from the Brits, and only pushed onto Alamein using supplies captured at Gazala and Tobruk. Even if the supplies were in theatre, Rommel didnt pay enough interest in ensuring they got to the front efficiently. Maybe handling the Italians better might have seen a better result.
4. The more he achieved (in pushing back the Commonwealth forces), the longer his supply line became. Almost everything had to go to Tripoli and then be transported to the front. That used up a good deal of the petrol - and wore out his trucks - that had been carried over even before it got to his panzers.
5. The Royal Navy was a pain in the butt and ensured supplies received were somewhat less than that expected - particularly in late 1941.
6. The Aussies, British and Poles proved a thorn in Rommel's side with their defence of Tobruk. This stubborn defence meant Rommel could not advance. That the Aussies were barely trained and the British Tankers the remnants of a smashed force shows how Rommel could have been so easily repulsed by a better equipped XIII Corps/8th Army
7. Malta should have been taken. Yep, even in preference to Crete. Malta controlled the Med, Crete just the Eastern end.
8. Ultimately the biggest error was repeating France's mistake in Spain in 1808-1814 i.e. North Africa was an unnecessary diversion for the Germans while they were engaged in the real struggle against the Soviet Union, while for the British, North Africa gave them a chance to fight - and whittle down - and learn how to fight - the enemy. Ultimately the Commonwealth and later the US Army would have more troops, tanks, guns and aircraft to bring to the theatre.





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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 8:09:31 AM   
JeffK


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If anyone is interested, I can send a copy of  Operation Compass  - On to Tripoli, a brilliantly written piece by me where I postulate that Wavell was told to go to Tripoli.
The Greeks held out against British land forces helping in Europe, they new the promised 6 Divisions were unavailable so only defensive forces went into Crete to release Greek Cretan units for the mainland.
The RAF decides NW Europe isnt a good battlefield so send a bit more to the Desert.
Hitler isnt interested in Africa, von Paulus visits and advises against and Rommel attacks the Aussies at Sirte and is wounded and sent home.
Tripoli falls the week before the Wermacht steamrolls the Balkans.

I was trying to link this to a 1943 Invasion of France, havent got there yet, The Med is a bit of a black hole until US Landing Craft start to arrive.

PM with a copy of a 5 pound note and I'll send the file.


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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 8:14:49 AM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

Come to think of it, there is a Commonwealth East African Division or something very similarly name that also has it's arrival date in the game impacted by this topic.  

The African Divisions didnt get to face Rommel, as firstly 1st and 2nd African Divisions then 11th & 12th East African Divisions they fought in Abbysinia against the Italians.

There is however the 7th British Armoured Bde, 6th, 7th & 9th Australian Divisions and Corps units and a large number of RAF units which were stripped from the Desert and sent to SEAC/Pacific.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 11:15:41 AM   
wdolson

 

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By the time Rommel got the Egyptian border, 90% of the fuel landed in Tripoli was being burned up transporting fuel and supplies to the front.  Rommel could do well when his supply line were short, but the longer his supply lines, the more impossible his task became. 

The British had the advantage of having their base of operations in a country that had some infrastructure as well as unlimited fuel from the Middle East in their backyard.  Rommel had his base of operations in a country with virtually no infrastructure.  Everything had to be imported through less than secure routes, then driven down the very poor quality coast road to the front in trucks that were inferior quality to American lend-lease trucks.

After six months of rough treatment his trucks were breaking down.

I have read an analysis that Rommel was a good division commander, but was a poor corps commander.

Bill


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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 12:57:31 PM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

By the time Rommel got the Egyptian border, 90% of the fuel landed in Tripoli was being burned up transporting fuel and supplies to the front.  Rommel could do well when his supply line were short, but the longer his supply lines, the more impossible his task became. 

The British had the advantage of having their base of operations in a country that had some infrastructure as well as unlimited fuel from the Middle East in their backyard.  Rommel had his base of operations in a country with virtually no infrastructure.  Everything had to be imported through less than secure routes, then driven down the very poor quality coast road to the front in trucks that were inferior quality to American lend-lease trucks.

After six months of rough treatment his trucks were breaking down.

I have read an analysis that Rommel was a good division commander, but was a poor corps commander.

Bill


I'd go as far as saying he was an OK Corps commander but a bad Army Commander

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 2:42:44 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Why did Rommel lose in Africa?


Why are you trolling this forum with European theater threads? This is thread #2 like this. Go post your questions on the War in the East forum.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 7:10:07 PM   
Insano

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

...
The British had the advantage of having their base of operations in a country that had some infrastructure as well as unlimited fuel from the Middle East in their backyard. 
...



hi a question about this mid-east oil for any AFB logistics guys out there - where was the allied refining capacity? Did the crude have to be shipped to England and then back as usable fuel? I don't know enough about it but isn't number 6 fuel oil as would be used by most warships just basically crude oil with all the good stuff boiled off? Could the ships fire straight crude if they didn't care about saving the good stuff? As for the refined products like diesel (number 2 fuel oil) and aviation spirits where was this refining capacity? This was fuel for submarines, tanks, some destroyers, and planes.

In game terms I see "fuel" as number 6 fuel oil for ship's bunkers and diesel for submarines. "Oil" is just crude - useless in its current form (or is it really useless see direct firing question above?). Diesel for tanks, gasoline, and aviation gas is "supplies" in game. Considering refining capability, is the mid-east producing game "oil" or "fuel"? No flames - I'm not complaining about anything, just thinking aloud. I also understand that the game has a level of abstraction that is necessarily built in.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 7:21:24 PM   
crsutton


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Cause it was freaking hot and there were a lot of flies there....

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 8:33:45 PM   
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Well, I don't know about arabian crude, but the only crude oil in the pacific area that had the right consistency to burn unrefined in ship boilers came from Palembang.

When the loss of tankers started to hurt the IJN, they send warships to Palembang te refuel there directly, burning the crude was far from ideal, but it kept them going...

W.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 8:45:54 PM   
wdolson

 

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Standard Oil owned a large refinery in Bahrain that was built in the 1930s.  I think there were some other, smaller refineries in the region at the time.  ARAMCO started work on the first refinery in Saudi Arabia in 1943, but the war was almost over by the time that came online.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 9:14:46 PM   
elxaime

 

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Curiously, of the British and Australian fighter squadrons that fought both in North Africa and then against the Japanese, how did they rate the two opponents (or three, if you count the Regia Aeronautica). Who did they find the tougher opponent and why?

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 9:40:18 PM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

Well, I don't know about arabian crude, but the only crude oil in the pacific area that had the right consistency to burn unrefined in ship boilers came from Palembang.

When the loss of tankers started to hurt the IJN, they send warships to Palembang te refuel there directly, burning the crude was far from ideal, but it kept them going...

W.


I've never heard of Arabian crude being used directly, but I thought there were a couple of places in the SRA where oil could be used directly. Putting crude in the bunkers did gum up the works though.

The lack of tankers was probably the main reason most of Japan's surface assets were in the SRA from 43 on.

Bill

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 10:11:23 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Curiously, of the British and Australian fighter squadrons that fought both in North Africa and then against the Japanese, how did they rate the two opponents (or three, if you count the Regia Aeronautica). Who did they find the tougher opponent and why?


They rated the Germans very highly. There were a extremely good core of Jagdwaffe who ran up very high scores on them. IIRC from Shores, there was not a single Commonwealth squadron that didn't lose 4 aircraft in a mission at least once during the fighting up to Alamein. The Regia Aeronautica pilots were respected but nearly as feared. The common description was that while some of the fighter pilots were quite skilled, there was never that 'go for the kill' aspect that pervailed amongst the German fighter pilots. That combined with their lighter armament saw far fewer kills amonst the Italians. The Japanese fighter pilots surpised the hell out of the Commonwealth pilots once the shooting started there. Both the CW and US pilots had been led to believe their Asian opposites were 2nd rate. They found out differently the hard way.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 10:15:06 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Insano


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

...
The British had the advantage of having their base of operations in a country that had some infrastructure as well as unlimited fuel from the Middle East in their backyard. 
...



hi a question about this mid-east oil for any AFB logistics guys out there - where was the allied refining capacity? Did the crude have to be shipped to England and then back as usable fuel? I don't know enough about it but isn't number 6 fuel oil as would be used by most warships just basically crude oil with all the good stuff boiled off? Could the ships fire straight crude if they didn't care about saving the good stuff? As for the refined products like diesel (number 2 fuel oil) and aviation spirits where was this refining capacity? This was fuel for submarines, tanks, some destroyers, and planes.

In game terms I see "fuel" as number 6 fuel oil for ship's bunkers and diesel for submarines. "Oil" is just crude - useless in its current form (or is it really useless see direct firing question above?). Diesel for tanks, gasoline, and aviation gas is "supplies" in game. Considering refining capability, is the mid-east producing game "oil" or "fuel"? No flames - I'm not complaining about anything, just thinking aloud. I also understand that the game has a level of abstraction that is necessarily built in.


Alot of fuel came to the UK via the US. Hard to believe nowadays but back then the US had major oil reserves....thats why the Tanker situaiton during the Drumbeat campaign hurt so much initially. Middle East oil reserves wern't nearly as well developed up to that point but was important enough for warrent the joint UK/USSR occupation of Iran.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 11:06:46 PM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Footslogger

Why did Rommel lose in Africa?


Why are you trolling this forum with European theater threads? This is thread #2 like this. Go post your questions on the War in the East forum.

Rommel was in Nth Africa, not Russia

Anyway, its been a nice conversation until the Martians barged in.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 11:08:53 PM   
Mynok


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Two in a row seemed fishy to me. But carry on.....

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/2/2011 11:10:39 PM   
JeffK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Curiously, of the British and Australian fighter squadrons that fought both in North Africa and then against the Japanese, how did they rate the two opponents (or three, if you count the Regia Aeronautica). Who did they find the tougher opponent and why?


They rated the Germans very highly. There were a extremely good core of Jagdwaffe who ran up very high scores on them. IIRC from Shores, there was not a single Commonwealth squadron that didn't lose 4 aircraft in a mission at least once during the fighting up to Alamein. The Regia Aeronautica pilots were respected but nearly as feared. The common description was that while some of the fighter pilots were quite skilled, there was never that 'go for the kill' aspect that pervailed amongst the German fighter pilots. That combined with their lighter armament saw far fewer kills amonst the Italians. The Japanese fighter pilots surpised the hell out of the Commonwealth pilots once the shooting started there. Both the CW and US pilots had been led to believe their Asian opposites were 2nd rate. They found out differently the hard way.


No Australian squadrons fought in the Desert and in the PTO.
2 Sqns came from the UK to Darwin (452 & 457?)

However a lot of individual pilots came back to the Pacific.

After the initial combats over Port Moresby & Darwin the RAAF saw little A-A combat.

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RE: Rommel's Afrika Corps.... - 8/3/2011 12:01:20 AM   
Califvol


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-

< Message edited by Califvol -- 8/3/2011 3:26:48 AM >

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