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RE: AE Grandmaster

 
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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/4/2011 5:17:12 PM   
Cap Mandrake

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What would a Cuttlefish vs. CapMandrake game be like?




I tired to matriculate the CO of Hibiki into the salted sea urchin roe multi-level marketing scheme but he had sworn fealty to the Emperor.

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Post #: 61
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/4/2011 5:37:53 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What would a Cuttlefish vs. CapMandrake game be like?




I tried to matriculate the CO of Hibiki into the salted sea urchin roe multi-level marketing scheme but he had sworn fealty to the Emperor.



The best part about this statement is that, as off the wall as it is, it's also true.


(in reply to Cap Mandrake)
Post #: 62
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/4/2011 6:26:47 PM   
witpqs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

What would a Cuttlefish vs. CapMandrake game be like?




Cuttledrake versus CapManfish - battle of the century!

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 63
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/4/2011 10:43:33 PM   
madflava13


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My votes would be for PzB, Mike Solli, and Canoerebel. These are the only AARs I've read religiously. I've read plenty of others, but they didn't make me sign on 5 times a day to see if there were updates like these three.

Also, Mogami - after all, there's a (now defunct) method named after him.

And Brady - I don't know where he's disappeared to, but he had probably more obvious input and fought harder for IJN fanboys than anyone!

Having been on the forums since 2001, well before AE was ever dreamed up, I can probably think of a dozen other guys as well, but then I'd be going back to UV days...

< Message edited by madflava13 -- 8/4/2011 10:44:22 PM >


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Post #: 64
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/4/2011 11:22:58 PM   
cantona2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

It is nice to see a genuinely positive and pleasant Thread running on this topic. Nice work everyone. It is a pleasaure to read.

There is another area that might need some consideration: Modders.

There is a nice-sized group who have come together with differing visions to create their own version of reality. The scholarship, research skills, and Editor knowledge displayed has amazed me time and again. For the last 18 months I have been consumed with Reluctant Admiral and now the Perfect War Mod. Watching the work done on Da Babes and other Mods makes me truly understand and appreciate all that hard work to simply fulfill a vision or dream within the world of AE.

For my votes I would reach far back to my original teacher in UV and WitP: Moses. He taught me a lot and though nothing has been seen of him for years, I do hope him the best. My other votes would go to JWE and Juan who have always been willing to volunteer their time, help, and consideration. FatR fits into that model as well.

Over some very rough years my experience with my former opponent CR (Dan), Economics Minister Michael (NYGiants) and Paul Layne has taught how this Forum can truly develop strong friendships and a support network.

Keep up the Thread and we'll see where it goes!


+1 and a heads up to the Patch People and all their hard work (Halsey/Lesbaker and any others I may have forgotten)

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Post #: 65
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/5/2011 9:52:44 AM   
1275psi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lomri


I've lurked since the UV days, and while I have a terrible memory for names, folks who write AARs really do need special recognition. I really enjoyed UV but I remember almost having more fun reading some peoples AARs back in the day. I think it is really inspired me and made WitP more accessible. I sure wish I remember the names of the first AARs I read. Maybe Mogami? Speedy? Maybe it was a match between an Ozzie and a Kiwi?

So while this thread started talking about excellent players, I wanted to second (or fifth or whatever) the sentiment that AARs are a valuable contribution to the community. Plus, without them, how would you even know what constitutes "best" play?



An aussie and a kiwi -that would be myself and wobbly.
we introduced the dual, don't peek AARs.which honestly, show how great this forum is, because they still exists because HONOUR runs deep on this forum...........nno cheats here!

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Post #: 66
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/20/2011 7:17:47 PM   
zuluhour


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newb view:
Grandmaster: unqualified to speculate, however from my brief time here: Michaelm and Alfred should have some kind of rune displayed under those stars to signify an amazing level of dedication to us (well you fellows mostly. I just got "off the boat").
The Game: I know this much, I would sacrifice some of the color commentary, which I do heartily enjoy, to see a 2vs2 or two 2vs2 vs the nominees.(2-day turns) (teams divide responsibility as they please.)

Sincerly, Zuluhour (VP of TWIT)

perhaps the game could be a 3-6 month affair with modified VC?

< Message edited by zuluhour -- 8/21/2011 12:50:32 AM >

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Post #: 67
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/20/2011 9:16:34 PM   
steamboateng


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Being quite new to the forums and AE, and not really familiar with all top players, as I've followed only a few AAR's; I humbly submit Nemo as a canidate.
His introductory courses into Russian Strategic Concepts, OODA Loops and other like mysteries, has not only held my attention and awe, but has allowed me to significantly improve my Google skills.
Nemo forces the question: 'OK! You have made that move (commitment?). Why did you do that?
Nemo is not only a teacher. He is a provocative teacher.

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Post #: 68
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/20/2011 11:16:19 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There are a heck of alot of experienced and capable AE players, all of whom belong in roughly the same classification - good guys/good players. IMO, there are only a few that are clearly at the head of the class.

But three guys who jump at out me as deserving special mention:

Terminus: Just because it wil irritate the fire out of him.

Bullwinkle: Because he's a good Moose.

GreyJoy: Because the guy is keeping the entire forum entertained with his steadfastness, foibles, creative spelling, and genuine cheerfulness.


If a "Grandmaster" is defined as "being very good at the game", then I'm happy to disappoint you. I might qualify as a "good guy", but that's for others to decide (and please do so without posting about it).



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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/21/2011 5:52:27 AM   
USS America


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus


quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

There are a heck of alot of experienced and capable AE players, all of whom belong in roughly the same classification - good guys/good players. IMO, there are only a few that are clearly at the head of the class.

But three guys who jump at out me as deserving special mention:

Terminus: Just because it wil irritate the fire out of him.

Bullwinkle: Because he's a good Moose.

GreyJoy: Because the guy is keeping the entire forum entertained with his steadfastness, foibles, creative spelling, and genuine cheerfulness.


If a "Grandmaster" is defined as "being very good at the game", then I'm happy to disappoint you. I might qualify as a "good guy", but that's for others to decide (and please do so without posting about it).





Where's the fun in that?

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/21/2011 6:03:27 PM   
AW1Steve


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Good guy? Hmmm...., . Let's just say T deserves the title due to knowledge,creating a scenario, and of course his charming personality and all around good looks!

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/21/2011 10:21:37 PM   
Terminus


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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 12:49:39 AM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus




BTW, you don't need a bigger finger when you have the world's ugliest toe!

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 1:56:15 AM   
Terminus


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Attachment (1)

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 3:17:53 AM   
AW1Steve


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Actually T is not so much a grandmaster as a toemiester!

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 7:22:32 AM   
jeffs


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I have agree with Nemo.....Just based on his psyco ops talent alone!!

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 7:27:49 AM   
jeffs


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I should also add that I PMed Nemo about some strategic questions and he promptly answered the question in enought detail that I was able to replicate the strategy (if somewhat imperfectly)...in my game.

So he is a teacher...I imagine Snape (for you Harry Potter fans) of AE strategy...Emphasis on the dark arts.

< Message edited by jeffs -- 8/22/2011 9:48:24 AM >


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To quote from Evans/Peattie`s {Kaigun}
"Mistakes in operations and tactics can be corrected, but
political and strategic mistakes live forever". The authors were refering to Japan but the same could be said of the US misadventure in Iraq

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Post #: 77
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 5:27:44 PM   
AW1Steve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jeffs

I should also add that I PMed Nemo about some strategic questions and he promptly answered the question in enought detail that I was able to replicate the strategy (if somewhat imperfectly)...in my game.

So he is a teacher...I imagine Snape (for you Harry Potter fans) of AE strategy...Emphasis on the dark arts.

Deleted

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 8/23/2011 1:42:58 AM >


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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 6:16:58 PM   
John 3rd


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Steve:

Perhaps with your clarification and differing areas we can redo a Japanese and Allied list of players?

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 8:41:23 PM   
Nemo121


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I believe that good strategic analysis isn't limited to playing one side or the other. Anyone at the top level should have an equal facility for playing Allies or Japanese as a GrandMaster is less concerned with "learning" how to play one side and more focused on learning how to think problems through.

If someone's a Grandmaster then they will have learnt how to think strategic problems through and come up with workable operational plans. Ideally their solutions will show a flexibility, willingness to examine the issue without preconceived notions and a willingness to adopt unorthodox solutions which, nonetheless, are effective and result in practical operations which succeed - by their terms. If someone has learnt how to play one side or the other well ( but not the other ) then it is highly likely that they are not exhibiting this ability to engage in fundamental analysis and turn out a comprehensive, cohesive, internally consistent plan capable of being implemented operationally and achieving the strategic goals they require in order to achieve their national policy objectives. They are probably just exhibiting an ability to "pick" a few standard plays and apply them well - but that's far from being a top level player.

E.g. You might pick PzB as a player who is a "good" Japanese player. I would argue that he is a good strategist in general and would do a good job with the Allies too as his analysis is usually good. Previously though I also point out that in order to be considered in the top flight he would have to, IMO, play someone other than AndyMac and play as the Allies so that his innate strategic analysis skills and ability to turn that analysis into practical plans in service of his overall goal would be clearly demonstrated. So, not just a good Japanese player but a good strategist, definitely on the 2nd tier of players and possibly the first tier if he demonstrates a facility to play as the non-Japanese vs other opponents.


Paladin1ds et al,
Interestingly enough I did once kick around the idea of playing with Alfred in a 2 vs 2. Once the opponents I have my eye on finish their current games I intend to raise that possibility again. I raised the issue and the response is, I think, a "maybe" to be reviewed when their current games finish. That'll probably be another 18 months or so but, if you want interesting matches, you have to be willing to wait for people's dance cards to be free - so I wait.



Lastly, I would suggest that some utility could come to the community from the following division of nominations:

1. Grandmaster: Excellent players. Two tiers are required, at least. First tier is for players who are outstanding in every aspect ( strategy, operational art, tactical understanding ) and show they can apply this to either side in any situation at any time. Second tier would nominate players who have shown ability in a number of the areas above but either don't reach the same standard as the people in the first tier or haven't demonstrated ability in each of the necessary areas.

Thus, I think, PzB could easily justify a 2nd tier spot and the reasons why he would be 2nd and not 1st would be clear.

A player in the first or 2nd tier would immediately be someone that anyone new to AE would know should be listened to. Some recent AARs feature huge amounts of advice but sometimes there was so much advice that players have had difficulty figuring out which advice was worth listening to. I think if Grandmaster were limited to no more than 8 spots then I think it would be clear that:
a) anyone in that group of 8 would be worth listening to
b) there would be some quality control to prevent the title of Grandmaster being used as an honorific and ending up being given to 15 or 20 people such that it loses all meaning.


2. Sensei - Maximum of 8 players.
Combining high levels of ability with a willingness to explain things to others. NOt everyone who knows how things work or who can play a good game is actually willing or able to explain things to others. In some cases that's just not having the time, in others it is a conscious decision to hold information close so that they don't lose their perceived knowledge advantage and in others it is a means of "punishing" those whom they have some animus towards.

So, if people have ability insight and a willingness to share this insight with others then they can qualify as Sensei.

E.g. LoBaron would definitely qualify as he has been willing to test and share his insight into A2A mechanisms. Others would be excluded because while they have the ability or insight they are either unable or unwilling to share their knowledge equally and freely with the community - an essential criteria for being a Sensei as it does new players no use to know someone knows stuff if that person won't share that information or insight with them. Simple example, if you're a teacher you can't be labelled a Sensei ( an excellent teacher) if you will only teach caucasian kids and refuse to teach others cause you are a racist. No matter how well you teach those Caucasian kids you shouldn't be held up as an example to others - which is what admitting people into this label would be doing.


So, that would separate great players from those who might have great insight into mechanics and strategy but who mightn't have the necessary playing record to earn the Grandmaster sobriquet. It would also clarify for newbies just whom to turn to for strategic advice and whom to turn to for advice on game mechanics or "how to do x" type questions. There will probably be some overlap between the two but that's no harm. I can certainly think of 2 people whom I'd place in both categories.


Obviously lots of others have made excellent contributions to AE ( floydg, Damian ( n01etc ), michaelm etc ) but if we're trying to focus on helping newbies then we need to focus on which skills/people to highlight in order to help them. Identifying the top players and those who are best at explaining mechanisms and game arcana AND willing to do so to all and sundry ( a crucial thing since people often use the ability to control access to knowledge to bully others and I don't think we should extoll that sort of behaviour or direct newbies to people who might do that ) serves that purpose.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 8/22/2011 8:45:44 PM >


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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 9:19:11 PM   
Cuttlefish

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

Previously though I also point out that in order to be considered in the top flight he would have to, IMO, play someone other than AndyMac and play as the Allies so that his innate strategic analysis skills and ability to turn that analysis into practical plans in service of his overall goal would be clearly demonstrated.


While Pzb has never played the Allies as far as I know, I will point out that AndyMac was actually Pzb's fourth opponent in his classic WITP game. Pzb not only beat the first three opponents decisively, he broke their will to fight. AndyMac took over somewhere around the midpoint of the war, if I remember correctly.


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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 9:35:19 PM   
John 3rd


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Well said Nemo.

What do you think of some sort of catagory for the Modders/Back Scenes contributors tot he game? Just as the 1st and 2nd Tier players are important to listen to and the Sensei are there explaining and helping, I think you have something for those who don't necessarily play a lot but contribute mightily behind the scenes. An example of this would be the Tracker Guys. How many of us could do what we do without Tracker and their willingness to help?

Thoughts?


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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 9:52:14 PM   
dr.hal


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I thought we got rid of nobility as a result of the revolutionary war!

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 10:09:33 PM   
Alfred

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dr.hal

I thought we got rid of nobility as a result of the revolutionary war!


Nah, they just moved to Hollywood.

Alfred

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 10:14:55 PM   
Andy Mac

 

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I don't normally get involved in these threads but as someone who has taken 6 WITP games to 45 and 2 to 46 PBEM and have 3 x AE games going plus at least 10 other PBEM's that made it to 43 before generally my opponents quit.

I think I have a fair read on who is a good player.

PZB is the best I have played. He has made me look ordinary in this game we have going now and I may not be the best allied player but I aint that bad - but no one makes me cover rear areas as carefully and scan sig int as carefully deep raids, KB turning up at the wrong place etc etc.

Its in his use of surface assets that he is especially good - sometimes he is so aggressive it costs him but I would describe him like a Kendo master

p.s. Other opponents of mine were good as well

Pauk springs to mind for understanding the strategy and being a carefull player not wasting his assets
Steve Sanchez was good as well as was Sprior (twice) and Enforcer/Dennis (Enforcer master of the deep raid), Gilles, Sveint, String for the audacious attack

I also have a good game going v Paul but its to early to tell although is tearing me apart in China

There were other opponents as well that never got out of 42.

Re Nemo my main regret was that I couldnt cope with the different type of game so ended it before we really got started - would have loved to play him seriously but I guess main problem was down deep I'm a quasi historical kind of guy - 30 turns v Nemo was a lot of fun though !!!!

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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 10:34:45 PM   
AW1Steve


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Deleted

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 8/23/2011 1:41:54 AM >


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RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 11:49:10 PM   
Nemo121


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John3rd,
Well it all depends what the goal is... Is this an attempt to recognise everyone who has contributed to CM or, as was initially stated, an attempt to point out individuals who are worth listening to in terms of learning the game and strategy? If it is the latter then there is no point in highlighting those who have contributed to AE's development or mods etc here --- Starting another thread to do so might be a good idea though. My understanding was the aim of the thread was the latter, not the former.

I think that for this to have any value to newbies there needs to be discipline to keep it focused and prevent it becoming a "Let's nominate everyone who is a known character on the forums, surely they've all done or said something useful or important once." Sure there's a time and place for such backslapping BUT if we're trying to single out perhaps a dozen people that newbies can remember and go, "If this guy answers a question of mine then I should probably listen since the community as a whole says he should be listened to " then we need to:
a) limit our nomination to either good players or good teachers ( or both ) and
b) limit the number of people we list so that any list we come up with has meaning. If, out of 100 frequent posters we end up with 30 people nominated then the resulting list won't have any usefulness.

Just because someone isn't on the list doesn't mean they aren't a good player or don't know the game. However I think a focused, short list would be useful to newbies. I initially ignored this thread for a time because I figured it'd go down the route of just nominating people whom others had played as a sort of "My opponent's a grand fellow" thing. It has, to a large extent, avoided that and thus I think it may have the possibility of actually being a useful contribution to the community for newbies. Hence I'm posting now. Of course people are free to disagree and decide on some other course. I'm just saying what I think may be useful for newbies from my experience on this and other fora and what I understand of the dynamics of teaching.

If we simply apply it to everyone then we lose all ability to distinguish who is worth listening to for newbies - which was the original goal of the thread.


As to tracker: I think it is a great tool but I also think it leads people to over-analyse the minutiae of the game at the expense of their fingerspitzengefeuhl. I have liked tracker but I don't actually use it and I think that because I don't use it I'm forced to adopt plans which are operationally and tactically quite simple, albeit fitting into a relatively complex strategic schema. I think it is a great tool but I think people's use of it can lead them to not develop skills which are actually more crucial strategically and long-term in the game. As with everything you need to use it as a tool to aid play without actually letting it mask weaknesses which you then don't correct - chief amongst which is over-complication. Since it presents so much data and helps one crunch that data I think that that can lead to the belief that all that data is necessary. With that said the actual HI usage page is, when playing as Japan, incredibly useful.I've frequently asked Damian to run that for me so I can figure out just what I'm using where.


Cuttlefish, AndyMac,
Aye, your points are well taken. By my criteria he wouldn't merit a nomination to the first tier quite yet. He'd merit a nomination to the second. You, of course, are both welcome to disagree and nominate him to the first tier should you so wish. That's one reason why no one person should decide who goes where. I think he would qualify as a grandmaster but, personally, I don't think he has proven to be of the first tier yet - I happen to think only two individuals on the forum have any call to being in the first tier so saying he isn't, yet, IMO one of those two but IS in the top 8 is hardly a condemnation.

Your opinions differ, which is fine, so feel free to nominate him to the top tier if you wish.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 8/23/2011 12:09:13 AM >


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Post #: 87
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/22/2011 11:54:41 PM   
John 3rd


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Thanks Nemo. I concur with that. My thinking was on how new players get 'sent' in directions such as "Watch His Play" or "Check with ___ before you you do this" or "If you need help with the Economy ask ______." I think one can draw up a solid list of 1st and 2nd Tier Playders as well as Sensei pretty easily and serve to help new players out. This is the reason I've been involved with the Thread. We are getting new players all the time and we've lost a lot of our old grognards who have been here since the beginning. New players need people to talk to. Heck--OLDER players need someone to talk to!

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Post #: 88
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/23/2011 12:27:41 AM   
Nemo121


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I think the Grandmaster group has been well enough nominated to be filled. Anyone want to volunteer to tabulate the nominations thus far? I could do it but since I've been nominated it would be a bit unseemly to do so.

The Sensei group could probably do with commencing nominations now, unless someone has an objection.
I suggest that the criteria be:
1. Demonstrated in-game ability and/or demonstrated knowledge of game mechanics and/or demonstrated knowledge of how game rules interact to produce in-game outcomes PLUS
2. An ability to explain that to players PLUS
3. A willingness to provide that information to all who reasonably ask for explanations ( with exceptions for not being omniscient and seeing every post obviously ;-) ). No point highlighting someone as a "go to person" if they mightn't answer the newbies.

Under those three criteria I would nominate:
1. Alfred, 2. LoBaron, 3. Canoerebel, 4 Sardaukar.

I think Alfred answers a lot of questions very well. I think LoBaron has done a major service in explain air mechanics and co-ordination etc and Canoerebel has a history of explaining things well also. Lastly I think Sardaukar's Newbie AAR is a very good idea and a good innovation.

I'd be happy to tabulate nominations for Sensei unless someone objects.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 89
RE: AE Grandmaster - 8/23/2011 3:58:50 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 10496
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
I would add a 4th point to your criteria. The ability to teach in such a way as to engender questioning and learning. There needs to be an ability to actual teach without alienating. My .02...

I'd nominate Michael (NY GIants59). He is gifted at being able to explain things in such a way as make them so understandable without a person feeling like a total and complete idiot. Several players (not to mention myself) have been forwarded by me to him when it comes down to it.


_____________________________



Member: Reluctant Admiral and Perfect War Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/


(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 90
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