The PERFECT WAR Mod

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John 3rd
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The PERFECT WAR Mod

Post by John 3rd »

With all the experience that the Reluctant Admiral crew put in to create that Mod we had many ideas that were forced to be shelved due to a lack of compatability with Yamamoto's views, writings and plans.

The idea is not to continue fine-tuning RA but move onto a new project that FatR just dubbed tentatively "The Perfect War." I shall copy and move several of the Posts in the RA 3.0 Thread to bring people up to speed.

We've, so far, got FatR, myself, NY Giants, and Sulu Sea involved. A call for reliable volunteers would make a bunch of sense to me. In particular we are looking for an air art individual. Red Lancer did fine work with RA and I have emailed him without getting a response to this point.

This Mod will bring major changes to the Japanese air, ground, and fleet. The Allies would get a thorough retooling as well.

The key will be to find a 'vision' that would work well with whatever ideas we get put together.

I'll paste in some of the thoughts so far. PLEASE jump in and contribute! We want fresh and solid ideas for a Mod that is only just beginning...
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John 3rd
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The PERFECT WAR Mod: Vision

Post by John 3rd »

From FatR:


As someone probably have mentioned, we thought about making an alt_naval mod before. Unfortunately, since them my issues with the alt_naval's concept had increased significantly. I can explain them in detail, but for now briefly:

1)The changes do not plausibly follow from the premise.
2)Assumed Japanese foresight extends to knowing the year when the war will begin.
3)Proposed surface forces not only suffer from (1), but have crippling weaknesses, which might have been not very relevant IRL, but which will be in AE.
4)The fleet develops in revolutionary jumps, skipping parts of the gradual evolution of designs, that took place IRL.
5)The issue of producing planes and pilots for the oversized carrier fleet which was noticed by the author himself.

I don't think the idea is completely unsalvageable, but it needs very large modifications.

I have a rather big conceptual proposal for the air side (which I'll outline as soon as I have the time), but I have a hard time coming up with a plausible concept of my own for the navy. Partially because I don't know this side of things as well. It is really hard to imagine the way to achieve a major improvement here without giving Japanese some economical breaks or greater foresight (I love Scen 70 as much as you, John, but I have to admit that it does both), particularly if changes aren't introduced from early thirties. The more I look at development of IJN, the more I see that their key fleet-building decisions were generally good or at least passable (at the time they were made). And without economical breaks they need not as much greater foresight, as outright seeing the future. If we want to not break away from reality too much, just to create a mod based on really good Japanese foresight (well, and Allied response), I think that we should go right to late 20s-early 30s and consctuction of their first generation of modern warships and what could have been done better then. I have a few ideas, but I want to read through Kaigun carefully to give them a reality check, and there are some other books I want to read before throwing ideas around. So, if you, by chance, have any big concepts you want to see in a mod, I'd love to hear about them.

Also, I think we should determine if we have anyone capable of helping with art (particularly air art, there are many existing shipsides for various Japanese ship designs already), before starting forming the concept.
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The PERFECT WAR Mod: Vision

Post by John 3rd »

The last couple of Posts:


(FatR) Stanislav:
"Perfect War" mod ? Allies should get a lot more love there as well, of course, if not if terms of reworking naval building programs and aircraft types, then production (aircraft numbers and ship dates of arrival + ships that were cancelled after the war's end, and most likely expansions for certain types). And initial preparation I think, if you are not opposed to the idea of a mod where Allies are practically expected to make a serious attempt of stopping the initial SRA offensive entirely, something that, IMO, is only viable in the stock and practically all of the mods so far if the Japanese player makes severe mistakes.


NY Giants (Michael):
You could use Port Stanley as a possible production base for Allied airframes. Put enough static devices there that it requires significant use of AKs to bring supplies there to keep some factories producing.

Most of the USA HI and LI should be damaged in the beginning and require most of the initial supply to be used to repair it. Their production should ramp up and not start with all that supply.



SuluSea (EJ):
Good idea Micheal, there is just too much supply in the U.S. at the wars start and early months and plenty of tonnage to move it, the allied player will never have to worry about an operation shoestring when it comes to supply. Damaged industry could reflect production converting from peace time to wartime industry.
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The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by John 3rd »

We need to establish some parameters as to the conditions of the Mod:

1. Is it to be REALISTIC? Do we make decisions based on what the Japanese could have done regarding their economy and building ability?

2. How far back to we go? The RA Mod was based on the changes beginning in the late-30s and in 4th Circle. Do we back up to 3rd Circle (mid-30s) or 2nd Circle (early-30s)?

3. What about China and Manchuria? Are they in the same position or better or worse?


I have some ideas regarding the Kaigun that we could start with, however, the changes must reflect the vision of the Mod. What is the Alterative History?

YES: I am a teacher and we need overview before we start playing around with specifics. If we can all agree upon the framework then it will be a BLAST to do the details!
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by Dixie »

Depends what you're after for aircraft.  I might be able to help out, but not sure I can provide enough time for everything you might need.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by John 3rd »

Thank You Sir. We do not know what we'll need but it is great to know we've got at least one volunteer!
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by John 3rd »

Michael and I are talking right now and here is an idea:

How about we start the deviation from history by failing the 1st London Naval Treaty conference? The Fleet Faction wins and the Treaty Faction loses. Japan withdraws from Naval Disarmament and prompts a new naval race between USA and Japan. This would be 1930-1931. The USA could not begin until Roosevelt takes control in 1933 with possibly different USA Program starting in 1934. The Japanese would effectively have a 3 year head start before an American response.


The Japanese would be freed up to starting the changes as of 2nd Circle...
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by FatR »

1) I think JuanG's mods already cover "Pacific War on steroids" area fairly well. I think at least the appearance of adherence to reality ([:)]) should be maintained. Improbable amounts of foresight are OK, massive increases in Japanese production capability or naval building plans implicitly assuming knowing when the war will begin are not.

2)2nd Circle.

3)China is a tricky question. After the occupation of Manchuria an all-out Sino-Japanese war was eventually inevitable. In the real life it happened despite the political leaders on the both sides not wanting it. However, with IJA being at least somewhat more controllable by the Emperor and, through him, the government, which is sort of necessary for any mod that assumes more rational Japanese resource management, it might begin later, giving Japan a bit more time to develop its industry before going on the war footing. As a general idea, reducing initial Japanese holding in China and slightly improving conditions of the Chinese forces might be considered.


Anyway, let's write down our general premises, before picking the point of divergence:

1)This is a "What if Japanese had the best plausibly possible foresight when building their Army and Navy?" mod. (The answer is: "But the outcome refused to be changed", and the Allies side will react appropriately to the increase of the observed Japanese threat.) Key policial decisions remains mostly untouched, so the naval treaties will last as long as they did, and the war will happen as it did.

2)Japanese industrial capabilities should not massively deviate from reality.

3)Continuing the tradition of RA, this scenario shouldn't be extremely front-loaded for Japanese. (This is a major reason why alt_naval's shipbuilding program will not make a good mod.) On the contrary, I want to try a scenario where the Allied nations are considerably less complacent and better prepared for a fight at the beginning.

4)Greater freedom and options for both sides should be desirable.

Any additions?
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by FatR »

I thought we're trying to give Japan better chances, not worse, John[:)]. In reality, it would have been beneficial for Japan to stick to the treaties for as long as possible. The outcome of unlimited naval arms race with US is predetermined. Worse still, early failure of treaties will make RN less crippled by them than it was. And early hypermilitarisation will cripple Japan's economy in the long term. We might postulate slightly better terms for Japan... but I'm completely unqualified to say how plausible that might be.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by ny59giants »

The USA is still slow to respond to the Japanese withdrawl from the London Naval Treaty as John stated above and it isn't until an incident like the sinking of the Lusitania in late 39 or early 40 in the Atlantic Ocean spurs the Americans into action to rebuild their navy. The Cleveland Class hulls are used for CL and CVLs as stop gaps until the Essex Class CVs can get in production.

Allied production will need to be somewhat model to give some flexibility (the potential for more P-40E in 42 would be nice).

Have a Class of American subs with the S-Boat torpedoes. Just having a few fleet subs with good torpedoes would be nice. [:)]
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by John 3rd »

Just throwing ideas out...

You actually hit the nail on the head with that rejoinder. I LIKE the idea of the Treaties holding until 1935 and then do a new 3rd and 4th Circle Plan. If we work where the Japanese get what they WANTED, ie 70% and not 60% then THAT might be an interesting departure.

Think if they got 70% (5:5:3.5) at Washington in 1921-1922 and then 70% for their CAs and CLs in 1930! We could add some ships and bring in some historical designs for little change in the actual history. We could then look to a 'perfect' 3rd and 4th Circle. How does that sound?
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by kfsgo »

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Allied production will need to be somewhat model to give some flexibility (the potential for more P-40E in 42 would be nice).

An idea might be to distinguish Allied production that was available but not sent to the Pacific (f.e the thousands of aircraft delivered to the USSR) and production that 'might have been' (?). You could handle the first by deactivated factories that can be activated for a certain PP cost per month (an appropriate size LCU at the factory base serving as a trigger) and the second by the ship-supplies-to-the-Falklands method. That way, if you're in a siege-of-Karachi situation and need 100 P-39s yesterday, you can have them...it'll just cost you an infantry division for a month.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by FatR »

Is it technically possible to assign PP costs to activating factories through the editor?
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by kfsgo »

Don't think so; it'd have to be an HR situation with appropriately-sized LCUs sitting at the factory base, which isn't perfect although people seem to manage some impenetrable things - if you wanted a layer of redundancy you could create visible sub-models, like say a "P-40E*".
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by DOCUP »

Interesting stuff as usual guys.  I am no expert in this area just throwing something out from memory and it could be wrong, so take it with a grain of salt.  US could update it's BB fleet earlier than it did due to the changes in the IJN fleet.  I don't know what the updates that were planned in the 30's were but that could be an option.  Maybe some of the ships that never made it in due to money issues and congress could make it in or start being produced. 
 
 Yes a few more planes for the allies side would be nice either as replacements or something.  Training squadrons would also be nice for the allies. 
 
Maybe the US finds out earlier that it's torp's don't work. 
 
Just my two cents guys  good luck
 
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by FatR »

The possibility of allowing some player input into increasing Allied air production is interesting, but I'm not sure of any of the proposed ways is supposed to work from technical standpoint. For another example, I think aircraft factories do not need supply in the base to produce stuff. Or the idea is to make a base such a supply blackhole, that the extra aircraft factories won't repair, unless a lot of supply is constantly hauled in?

As about treaties, John, as I said, I don't know if it was actually possible for Japanese to get what they wanted by better diplomacy, but if yes, using this as the point of divergence has merit. Close Army/Navy cooperation in producing aircraft and weapon systems, which I want to postulate as the way to solve the problem of overloaded design teams is, in all likelyhood, far more improbable, I afraid...
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by JeffroK »

Zero, or very few Cv's for both sides.

More like a WPO with their hulls reallocated to BC & CL etc production.


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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by House Stark »

First of all, I have to say that as a fan of Alt Naval mods I'll definitely be watching this thread. If I had any relevant skills, I'd offer to contribute more than ideas.

FatR, you mentioned that Japan probably should not receive much of an increase in industry. Is this due to personal/gameplay reasons or because it seems logically impossible? If Japan is preparing for a possible war in the early 1930s that would give plenty of time for a more organized and competent Japan to develop more industry in the Home Islands, Manchuria, or Korea. Maybe Japanese leaders realize during the invasion of China that alienating the Chinese people would be counterproductive, and Japanese holdings in China are more developed. It seems that if wanted, there are a number of ways to squeeze more heavy industry out of Japan. After all, this is a game, and an alternate history, so if you have an Air or Naval OOB that would be fun and interesting but requires a little more industry...assume the best. Maybe even say that after the Russo-Japanese War Japan adopted a "wooden wall" type mentality focusing on the navy at the expense of the army. If you assume less wanton brutality in China then maybe more Chinese divisions could be fighting for Japan to make up the balance. Just my wall of text-sized two cents.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by John 3rd »

Good thinking and commentary as always.

House Stark--Did you read the Fire and Ice books prior to the series coming out on TV? I've been a twisted fan of Martin's from the first book on. Reading Dance with Dragons right now and having a GREAT time!

Would anyone have issues if I go through Washington and London Treaties for a proposal on Japanese ships build with slight additions? My Thesis for my Masters in History was on the Treaty Period. Would love to put that $25,000 investment back into use. These would not be huge additions--probably just a few ships--but it is interesting to ponder.

FatR: Concur that the Kaigun's true divergence begins with Circle Two.

As to other thoughts/ideas:
A. We've laid the ground work in RA for greater Army-Navy cooperation. Would like to work that and expand on it.
B. Stark's opinion above about a more tolerant and less brutal army in China makes for an interesting idea perhaps.
C. Adding industry in Manchuria is another RA idea we've done. Could that be expanded even more?
D. Docup and Michael's ideas on the US counter and some industrial flexibility make sense to me. I think the Allied side must be allowed to have fun as well.
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RE: The PERFECT WAR Mod: What is the Vision?

Post by House Stark »

@John 3rd-Yeah, I've been a fan of ASOIAF for five years or so. Definitely some of the best fiction I've ever read.

On the Washington Naval Treaty, sounds pretty good. Also I guess if you wanted you could maybe play around with the tonnages a bit as well as the ratios depending on what you're trying to achieve. I guess the only historical thing to consider would be that the Japanese would be less antagonistic towards the Americans if they got treated better in the naval treaties, and the Americans less antagonistic towards the Japanese if China was treated better. Maybe increased British/Dutch expansion in the DEI/Southeast Asia/Hong Kong area, or a more major and threatening US disposition in the Philippines would be required to justify the diplomatic side of the ramp up to war.
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