Matrix Games Forums

Buzz Aldrins Space Program Manager is now available!Space Program Manager gets mini-site and Twitch SessionBuzz Aldrin: Ask Me Anything (AMA) on redditDeal of the week Fantasy Kommander: Eukarion WarsSpace Program Manager Launch Contest Announced!Battle Academy 2 is out now on iPad!A closer look at rockets in Space Program ManagerDeal of the Week - Pride of NationsA new update for Piercing Fortress EuropaNew screenshots for War in the West!
Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

AA Reprise

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> AA Reprise Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
AA Reprise - 7/30/2011 5:00:32 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
Okey dokey, Michael did a code tweak back in 1107 that dealt with AA and which accommodated the Babes data tweaks. But Dp guns had to go to the hind teat because they also had to play within the SurfCom algorithm.

The amazing and incomparable Michael has coded in some hooks that let us play with DP gun specs, when used in AA mode, without upsetting their specs in SurfCom mode. And lions, and tigers, and bears, oh my !!!

This is not available in the editor. It takes a special program. Babes team been testing this for a month and it seems to work. A poop load of math is involved to get things lined up right.

It's already in the code, but unless the code sees the 'special' attribute, it will default to ordinary, everyday, stock.

Further information is only available to serious modders and serious players (and we know who you are) by pm.

Ciao. John

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes
Post #: 1
RE: AA Reprise - 7/30/2011 5:20:48 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8148
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
OK. It's still AM in Texas but I'll wait until PM.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 2
RE: AA Reprise - 7/30/2011 6:34:22 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14994
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

OK. It's still AM in Texas but I'll wait until PM.







Attachment (1)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 3
RE: AA Reprise - 7/30/2011 6:36:44 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41361
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
A wise guy, eh? Nyuk-nyuk-nyuk!


_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 4
RE: AA Reprise - 7/30/2011 7:37:53 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
OK. It's still AM in Texas but I'll wait until PM.

And obviously, it happens for your evening Stooges extravanganza.
pm sent. nyukkk, nyukkk, nyukkk. Hey, Moe .... !

Ciao , J

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 5
RE: AA Reprise - 7/31/2011 9:19:20 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5211
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline
Dumb question from a card carrying Luddite.

I assume

In the AA phase the code looks at weapons type and only allows AA & DP types to shoot.

It then says iff allowed to shoot, find accuracy/effectiveness etc ratings.

Is it hard to make this:

If weapons type is allowed to shoot, then use accuracy/effectiveness rating *2-4-50 whatever multiple is required.

Makes sense, the only problem is does the code allow something like this????


_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 6
RE: AA Reprise - 7/31/2011 6:19:27 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
does the code allow something like this????

Yes, the code roughly works that way, and it already tweaks DP gun values. But the data variables named Acc and Eff “mean” different things in the different algorithms, so it’s not quite copacetic to uniformly apply a multiplier. Some 3” DP guns were more “effective” as an AA weapon than some 5” guns, when one considers performance parameters that are relevant to AA performance (the 3”/50 comes to mind). Merely multiplying does nothing but move the whole paradigm up or down, and captures none of the relevant differentiation. So if one is going to dink with it, one should treat each gun individually. This is what was done.

As a simple example, here’s a range of different guns, with their “ultimate base AA variable” calculated in accord with the original model (A), Michaelm’s 1107 tweak (B) (with Babes numbers), and the optional results of this new paradigm (C) (again with Babes numbers).

‘A’ .. ‘B’ .. ‘C’
13 .. 28 .. 48 .. 3in/50
09 .. 26 .. 35 .. 8cm/40
41 .. 72 .. 71 .. 5in/38
38 .. 65 .. 60 .. 12.7cm/50
26 .. 49 .. 62 .. 4in/45 Mk XVI
21 .. 50 .. 64 .. 10cm/65

So one can see why it’s not a great idea to simply multiply column A or B by some number. And then there are the % ceiling calculations, and then there are the tweaks when VT shells and poop-hot directors come on line, and once again, it’s totally different when looking at Flak from a TF or looking at Flak from a Base or an LCU. Lotta math.


_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 7
RE: AA Reprise - 7/31/2011 7:02:12 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
Also, as a left-handed answer to the people who sent pms and want to know how it works, I can’t say just yet. This thing requires a special program that michaelm wrote for us, and I’m not comfy schlepping it out without his ok. He says ok, and everybody can get it.

But what we did, within the limits imposed by the processing algorithms (the .exe code), was to tweak Eff, Pen, and Acc data values for AAA performance, for DP guns independently of those data values for their respective Naval performance.

Because Eff is viewed differently, it has a different calculative factor relating to RoF. In this specific context, RoF is more explicit. Pen has nothing to do with Nathan Oakun’s penetration tables, because the shells fired are completely unrelated thus, it also has a different calculative factor. Acc has a bit more of an inherency built in, and is also based on quality of the sighting/training/director apparatus thus, it also has a different calculative factor.

Everything is “based” on numbers and limits imposed by the code, but the proportional and relative values of one gun vs another are about as good as we can get.


_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 8
RE: AA Reprise - 7/31/2011 9:32:59 PM   
JeffK


Posts: 5211
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffK
does the code allow something like this????

Yes, the code roughly works that way, and it already tweaks DP gun values. But the data variables named Acc and Eff “mean” different things in the different algorithms, so it’s not quite copacetic to uniformly apply a multiplier. Some 3” DP guns were more “effective” as an AA weapon than some 5” guns, when one considers performance parameters that are relevant to AA performance (the 3”/50 comes to mind). Merely multiplying does nothing but move the whole paradigm up or down, and captures none of the relevant differentiation. So if one is going to dink with it, one should treat each gun individually. This is what was done.

As a simple example, here’s a range of different guns, with their “ultimate base AA variable” calculated in accord with the original model (A), Michaelm’s 1107 tweak (B) (with Babes numbers), and the optional results of this new paradigm (C) (again with Babes numbers).

‘A’ .. ‘B’ .. ‘C’
13 .. 28 .. 48 .. 3in/50
09 .. 26 .. 35 .. 8cm/40
41 .. 72 .. 71 .. 5in/38
38 .. 65 .. 60 .. 12.7cm/50
26 .. 49 .. 62 .. 4in/45 Mk XVI
21 .. 50 .. 64 .. 10cm/65

So one can see why it’s not a great idea to simply multiply column A or B by some number. And then there are the % ceiling calculations, and then there are the tweaks when VT shells and poop-hot directors come on line, and once again, it’s totally different when looking at Flak from a TF or looking at Flak from a Base or an LCU. Lotta math.


Thanks,

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 9
RE: AA Reprise - 7/31/2011 11:20:39 PM   
che200


Posts: 906
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline
So John will we need the program to use this new data or can i copy it off the babes for my personal Mod ? BTW congrats to the Babes team and michealm for making AE even more realistic.

(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 10
RE: AA Reprise - 8/1/2011 1:08:28 AM   
oldman45


Posts: 2266
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
This is died and gone to heaven time with the DP guns working as they are supposed to. Many many thanks.

_____________________________


(in reply to che200)
Post #: 11
RE: AA Reprise - 8/1/2011 4:05:35 AM   
Buck Beach

 

Posts: 1918
Joined: 6/25/2000
From: Upland,CA,USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: oldman45

This is died and gone to heaven time with the DP guns working as they are supposed to. Many many thanks.


Are you saying that the subject of AA Reprise, has died when JWE has just posted more on the subject? Your statement has me confused.

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 12
RE: AA Reprise - 8/1/2011 5:13:35 AM   
oldman45


Posts: 2266
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
No, I am saying I am really happy the DP guns will finally be working the way they should have been. When the VT ammo kicks in they will be even more potent.

_____________________________


(in reply to Buck Beach)
Post #: 13
RE: AA Reprise - 8/1/2011 5:15:54 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 5211
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: Back in the Office, Can I get my tin hut back!
Status: offline
You are assuming the DP guns will work fine without the side affect being the map showing upside down.

Finger, Toes etc crossed!!

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 14
RE: AA Reprise - 8/1/2011 5:17:31 AM   
oldman45


Posts: 2266
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
If the guns work good enough I will learn to play with the map upside down

_____________________________


(in reply to JeffK)
Post #: 15
RE: AA Reprise - 8/1/2011 2:47:18 PM   
michaelm


Posts: 9302
Joined: 5/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
The revised witploadae to handle the secondary ability of guns can be found in the Beta2 directory (if you install the beta that is).
Once the guys have worked out the kinks, they can probably share what needs to be done to allow guns to execute in a secondary mode.


_____________________________

Michael

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 16
RE: AA Reprise - 8/1/2011 7:31:43 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
Hootz frikkin gazootz. Michael says cool, so ...

The special program is a modified WitploadAE. Also available here by attachment, along with instructions. The tweaks available from this program will NOT appear in the editor. So one must keep two minds when thinking about AAA stuff.

Data values, whether Nominal or Secondary, have to play within the code parameters. Babes data values, on the website, are pretty close to what we think about the whichness of why.

Literally tons of math relating to real effectivity of tubes from folks who do that for a living. Our team has tested this and it seems to work.

Both DaBabes (version 8) and BabesLite (version 11) have the new values embedded. One must read the Readme, and the Changelog, and do wht it says. Help is available here, if necessary.

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to michaelm)
Post #: 17
RE: AA Reprise - 8/1/2011 8:12:42 PM   
String


Posts: 2653
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline
Is there a possibility of this modification ever ending up in official patches?

_____________________________

Surface combat TF fanboy

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 18
RE: AA Reprise - 8/1/2011 8:21:08 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: String
Is there a possibility of this modification ever ending up in official patches?

Yes. That would be BabesLite. Otherwise, no.

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to String)
Post #: 19
RE: AA Reprise - 8/2/2011 1:25:40 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
I think Michaelm is going to put the new WitploadAE into a Beta, if he hasn't done it already. So it will eventually replace the present version and one won't have to keep track of which is which. Isn't osmosis wonderful?

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 20
RE: AA Reprise - 8/3/2011 1:02:45 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 3751
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
This is from the attached readme file:

If you add a secondary attribute (1, or 2) and don’t put in any secondary data, you are screwed. The default is then ‘0’ and nothing will function.

Nothing here says what should go into the secondary data fields. They are there for your modding convenience and if you break it, please don’t complain on the tech thread. Only the Babes people support this stuff.


I'm thinking about running a book on who will be the first person to


  • not put in any secondary data
  • insert nonsensical data into the secondary data fields


and then go to the tech sub forum and pester michaelm that the game is broken.

I might also consider running a book on how strong will be the complaints that this doesn't apply to the official Matrix scenarios. Also think I would get a lot of takers on a JFB v AFB breaking out as once again one side gets assistance at the expense of the other.

Alfred

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 21
RE: AA Reprise - 8/3/2011 8:47:28 AM   
noguaranteeofsanity


Posts: 257
Joined: 11/24/2009
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline
Quick question, I'm assuming that using the editor to tweak the latest scenario files with the witploadAE AA fix and saving, will not overwrite the unseen data fix in the scenario files?

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 22
RE: AA Reprise - 8/3/2011 1:26:34 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: noguaranteeofsanity
Quick question, I'm assuming that using the editor to tweak the latest scenario files with the witploadAE AA fix and saving, will not overwrite the unseen data fix in the scenario files?

That's right. Michael did a great job on making this all work. Been tweaking files with Sec_Data using the editor for quite a while. Nothing got dropped or overwritten yet.
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR
I assumed the further code changes will also include provisions about AA guns having lesser effect against surface targets, judging the appropriate date already entered into the scenario?

Those changes are already there. Sec_Attrib = 1 is for AA guns with a secondary surface role. A couple cautions, here, there aren't all that many. This is for AA guns on ships that are used by the naval surface combat routine. Not AA guns in LCUs; that's a different routine. So you won't see many in the scenarios.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
I might also consider running a book on how strong will be the complaints that this doesn't apply to the official Matrix scenarios

Won't take that bet. Who knows, maybe one day it might get included, if it works satisfactorily for everyone using the mods that have it. Never can tell.

Nonsensical data will physically 'function'. Just so long as there's some kind of numbers in the Sec_ columns. I'm sure Michael will support the code aspects of this, but it's the modder's own nickel when it comes to the numbers.

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to noguaranteeofsanity)
Post #: 23
RE: AA Reprise - 8/3/2011 3:19:39 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 14994
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
Alfred just wants to be the bookie for bets about the level of whining, because he knows the house always makes money!

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 24
RE: AA Reprise - 8/3/2011 11:35:57 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2266
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline
I have managed to confuse myself, it seems the little woman may be correct that I have a knack for doing that. If I simply use Bigbabes v8 your changes are in place and it works fine. But if I want to add this data into a current running mod I have to use MichaelM's witpaelaod to do this?

_____________________________


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 25
RE: AA Reprise - 8/4/2011 3:50:33 PM   
che200


Posts: 906
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline
So John can we just copy the data from the DP guns  from the Babes or do we have to use the new WitpaeLoad ?

(in reply to oldman45)
Post #: 26
RE: AA Reprise - 8/4/2011 4:38:43 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 6026
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/now in Israel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

So John can we just copy the data from the DP guns  from the Babes or do we have to use the new WitpaeLoad ?



I second this question...and to re-phrase:

1. If I just download new DaBabes versions, is there need to use new WitpaeLoad or will new scenarios work without using it?
2. If downloading new DaBabes versions, will the database AA changes update to existing DaBabes save or only when starting a new game?


_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von Bülov, 1870-


(in reply to che200)
Post #: 27
RE: AA Reprise - 8/4/2011 5:17:30 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
quote:

ORIGINAL: che200
So John can we just copy the data from the DP guns  from the Babes or do we have to use the new WitpaeLoad ?

I second this question...and to re-phrase:

1. If I just download new DaBabes versions, is there need to use new WitpaeLoad or will new scenarios work without using it?
2. If downloading new DaBabes versions, will the database AA changes update to existing DaBabes save or only when starting a new game?

1. Nope, the Babes scenarios have all the data already in there, good to go. No need to do anything.

2. AA/DP data changes are in the Device file, so should update into existing games with no issues a 'tall, a 'tall. Messed with one particular Brit AA gun that had huge RoF differences between certain mounts and so dinked with Class armament for Battles and Didos, and fixed about 4 others, but these are all late arriving ships, so there should be no vestigal doo doo on existing vessels, like what happened with sub split tubes. Even if your game is already in '44 or '45, it won't hurt much if your ship files don't update. The old guns aren't that much different from what they originally were, so it's a case of - it won't hurt, it just won't help.

Hope this helps. J

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to Sardaukar)
Post #: 28
RE: AA Reprise - 8/4/2011 5:27:56 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
Knew this would happen. Getting pms from folks saying why is this gun’s ceiling xx,xxx. I have a website that says it is yy,yyy.

There’s 5 or 6 different max ceilings in a gun’s specs. Many sites just say max ceiling (altitude), or max effective ceiling. Don’t say squat about which they are talking about. And, of course, all are vastly different.

In Babes, we use “Max Effective Ballistic Vertical Range” as defined by the US Army Coast and Antiaircraft Artillery (Field Manual Series FM-4) as a basis. This is a good basis for two reasons: consistency and how the game code treats high altitudes.

Consistency, because this parameter is readily available for most Allied guns from their official trial statistics. Many Axis weapons were also tested and specified to the same standards. The tube/shell/ballistic parameters of this value are very well established such that any weapon can have this value calculated from first principles from its service specs.

Game effects, because a gun’s effectiveness drops off as a function of altitude. Just because a gun a max ceiling of 41,000 doesn’t mean it can hit anything up that far. Altitude % chance drop off is a quasi inverse square function of max ceiling, and is very severe at the top 20-25%. So the code just happens to convert max vertical effective into honest to gosh max effective (imagine that, maybe GG knew what he was doing?).

This isn’t ultimate max ballistic ceiling. That is even larger, and ya’ll can see where and why we picked the effective max ballistic. And then there were the fuse parameters; fuses were set on time, and muzzle velocity, atmospherics, shell aerodynamics, and slant range were supremely important. Some guns had much better ballistic parameters than their fuse characteristics would seem to suggest. Believe me, as much of that as humanly possible is incorporated into the Ceiling value in Babes.

The Ceiling value is set up to give relative altitude based % hit efficiencies in accord with the Field Manual performance plots, and normalized to Nigel Evans’ ballistics.

Just for grins, your basic 3” M3 AA gun had many different max ranges:
Max Ballistic Altitude Ceiling: 32,200 feet
Max Effective Vertical Range: 30,300 feet
Max Effective Slant Range: 28,500 feet
Max Effective Fire Control Range: 25,000 feet
Max Fuse Time: 15 sec (M2 with M4/M5 Setting Director), at 2,700 f/s FTMV

I think on this particular gun we used max slant, because it was further limited by FC and fuse constraints.

Your basic 90mm M1A1 AA gun had:
Max Ballistic Altitude Ceiling: 36,000 feet
Max Effective Vertical Range: 33,000 feet
Max Effective Slant Range: 34,500 feet
Max Effective Fire Control Range: 30,000 feet
Max Fuse Time: 15 sec (M2 with M4/M5 Setting Director), at 2,700 f/s FTMV

On this one we used MEVR instead of slant, because it was smaller and worked better with the FC and fuse limitations.

I guess this is just a polite way of saying why we are not particularly interested in what some website has to say. Folks find something from Ft Sill, Woolwich, Sydney, etc .. we are all ears. Otherwise ....

_____________________________

Home of DaBabes

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 29
RE: AA Reprise - 8/4/2011 7:20:26 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25313
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
John,

Do the Japanese 5inchers in the DD's still retain their DP status in Babes?

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 30
Page:   [1] 2   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> Scenario Design and Modding >> AA Reprise Page: [1] 2   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.115