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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal

 
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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 2/28/2012 4:14:51 PM   
Max 86


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OK, here we are again!


quote:

ORIGINAL: PirateJock

Currently, units will withdraw as expected as long as their route is not blocked by an enemy unit or its ZoC. If the route is blocked they take a hit; rather than just sit there at Disruption 4.

Cheers


Does this still depend on passing a quality check first? If the check passes, the unit may attempt to retreat?

From pg 25, "Units in Withdraw Posture take Quality Checks and, if passed, retreat. If the unit does not pass the quality check it remains in place, lose a step and may even be eliminated."

I believe this applies to all units regardless of disruption level.

From page 32, "A unit starting in an EZOC can only enter an adjacent EZOC (via Infiltration) or an adjacent non-EZOC hex by Withdrawing from it during the Withdrawal Phase."

From PJ's statement above, there is NO entering an EZOC regardless

From pg 33, "A unit in Withdraw Posture must withdraw during the Withdrawal Phase if adjacent to the enemy. Withdrawing units may take additional casualties or Disruption based on the presence of friendly / enemy units. When units withdraw from assault combat, one less hit is taken by each side, if any hits were called for.

If it is not in an enemy ZOC, it will never withdraw.

Example 1: Two units are battling each other. The defender orders his unit to Withdraw. As it turns out the attacker took some damage and must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first (as per the manual). The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the order.

Example 2: Two units are battling each other. As it turns out both units took damage and both must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first. The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the result.
"

OK.

From pg 37, "Every Withdrawing unit takes a Quality Check. Additional Disruption and/or hits may result. See “Charts and Tables” in Section 10 for a full explanation."

Quality chk? Do we need to modify tables in section 10?

From pg 38, "Any unit in a Withdrawal Posture MUST withdraw (W/D) during the Withdrawal Phase if not in enemy EZOC. (Exception: Withdrawing units with no enemy units adjacent are never forced to withdraw.) A Withdrawal is a move from an EZOC hex into a Non-EZOC hex.
Withdrawal occurs in two ways:
• A unit may be forced to Withdraw as a result of combat.
• A unit that adopted a Withdrawal Posture during the Movement Phase must W/D during the Withdrawal Phase (unless accepted as above).
Units surrounded by EZOCs will lose a step and increase Disruption +1"

first sentence - should add: unless all hexes are EZOCs.

From pg 38, Withdrawing units never have to spend additional MPs for exiting an EZOC. During their Withdrawal, however, a withdrawing unit may not enter an EZOC. If a unit cannot withdraw due to the presence of EZOCs or enemy units, it takes a Withdrawal Check, assumes a Defensive Posture, and remains in place. It loses any previous Fort Levels. NOT SURE ABOUT THAT LAST PART. DELETE?[color=#FF0000] The unit will lose a step and increase Disruption +1"

withdrawal check or does it lose a step and increases disruption?

From pg 39, "Any unit that must withdraw will be highlighted. Select a highlighted unit and its withdrawal path and final withdrawal hexes will be displayed. The unit must end its withdrawal in one of the green hexes. The red hexes show the rout it must take to reach a green hex. The Player can either withdraw the unit one hex at a time, or withdraw the unit at once by clicking on a green hex. (If no green hex is displayed for a withdrawing unit, then it must withdraw until it has 0 MPs remaining. In this case, it may end its withdrawal in a red hex, so long as it has no MPs remaining.) Units that must withdraw have a dashed highlight. The currently selected withdrawing unit has a solid highlight. The Player can select and de-select units by clicking on them. (Keep in mind that the act of withdrawing may cause further disruption and loss of step if surrounded by EZOCs. The game will inform you of this at the beginning of the Withdrawal Phase.) To end a unit’s withdrawal prior to the unit expending all MPs (when its withdrawal ends automatically), click “Finished Withdrawing” to go to the next withdrawing unit (if any)."

OK.

From pg 39, "Withdrawing units must take a Quality Check which could result in Disruption Levels or loss of step on the Withdrawing unit if within EZOCs."

OK. Maybe add bit about no w/d into EZOCs?

Based on your testing so far, can you guys review and make corrections? I think what is confusing me is whether there is a difference between a unit forced to w/d via combat vs. a unit that has been odered to w/d for re-deployment. I think some clarification is needed here as to what rule differences apply, if any.

Thanks.

< Message edited by Max 86 -- 3/9/2012 4:53:15 PM >


_____________________________

No problem Chief!

(in reply to Joe 98)
Post #: 31
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 2/29/2012 2:21:44 AM   
Joe 98


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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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For a unit to withdraw, it must be in an enemy ZOC. If it is not in an enemy ZOC, it will never withdraw.

Example 1: Two units are battling each other. The defender orders his unit to Withdraw. As it turns out the attacker took some damage and must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first (as per the manual). The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the order.

Example 2: Two units are battling each other. As it turns out both units took damage and both must withdraw. The attacker withdraws first. The defender is no longer in an enemy ZOC so he will not withdraw in spite of the result.


The manual says that a unit will always withdraw one hex even if he does not have enough movement points. I suspect this was a mistake in the manual.

In combat, the result might be a withdrawl.
In combat, a unit might take damage and his disruption reaches 4 - withdrawl is automatic.
A player might give a unit to order to withdraw.
An arty unit attacks an enemy unit causing disruption to reach 4 - withdrawl is automatic
Off board support might attack an enemy unit causing disruption to reach 4 - withdrawl is automatic
Units moving in certain situations, units landing as paras or amphibious assault are all subject to quality checks and disruption might reach 4 - withdrawl is automatic

If a unit is not in enemy ZOC it will switch to Assault posture but not try to withdraw.
If a unit is in enemy ZOC it will switch to Assault posture and try to withdraw.

The withdraw path could be blocked by enemy ZOC or by terrain. If so it will take a hit. It will also take a QC and might possiblty take a second hit.

If such a unit has reached disruption 4 and is reduced to 1 hit or 2 hits in strength it will probably be destroyed in an attack the following turn. Hence your path is cleared.
.
.
NOTE: Where 10.7 says "Lvl 3 or 4: auto withdrawl" this is an error.

It should read: "Lvl 4: auto withdrawl"





< Message edited by Joe 98 -- 3/6/2012 5:12:00 AM >

(in reply to Max 86)
Post #: 32
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 3/2/2012 11:59:23 PM   
Joe 98


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There is another time when withdrawl will not happen.

When a unit is due to withdraw it will do a withdrawl check. If it fails that check it will not withdraw.

One of the variables in the formula is the Disruption level. Higher disruption = higher chance of failing the withdrawl check.

Again, if it doesn't withdraw when it should, it will take a hit.

.
.

(in reply to Joe 98)
Post #: 33
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 3/6/2012 12:57:01 AM   
sabre1


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Just checking in Joe. Looking forward to playing this again. Thanks for all the work you and PJ did.

Max thanks for keeping the manual up to date.

_____________________________

Combat Command Matrix Edition Company, The Forgotten Few

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Post #: 34
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 3/9/2012 4:58:18 PM   
Max 86


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Please see RED text in my post above for suggested changes to withdrawal rule in the manual. I have added the Infiltration tip to the manual. So please review and let me know what corrections/additions I need to make. Lets wrap this up.

_____________________________

No problem Chief!

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Post #: 35
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 3/12/2012 1:16:49 AM   
Joe 98


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I can add some more:

If a unit is meant to withdraw and cannot, it will take a hit instead.

If a unit is meant to withdraw, you will see a series of red hexes and green hexes. The unit must cross the red hexes and stop on a green hex.

Now read the last part of paragraph 10.7.1

If a unit has a lower disruption level and is meant to withdraw, the withdrawl distance will be shorter.

If a unit has a higher disruption level and is meant to withdraw, the withdrawl distance will be greater.

New info:
If a unit is near the edge of the map and has a higher disruption level, the red hexes will (in theory) extend off the edge of the map. As it cannot reach the green hexes it cannot withdraw and so will take a hit.




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Post #: 36
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 3/13/2012 4:39:19 PM   
Max 86


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Joe,

A lot of what you write is already in the manual just scattered about. I will add a new section to the manual, "Important Rules Regarding Withdrawal" and summarize all of the more important points you have mentioned.

_____________________________

No problem Chief!

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Post #: 37
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/21/2012 9:27:57 PM   
Korsun


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okay, this game is great but I still don't fully understand the dreaded withdrawal rule after all. I noticed that units set to w/d posture during movement segment only withdraw if disruption is lower than 3. If disruption is 3 or 4 they never withdraw and only get additional disruption or hits when failing a w/d check. Is this correct? This is what happenes frequently in the Carentan scenario... Is there anybody that fully understands withdrawal?

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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/21/2012 11:27:15 PM   
Joe 98


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A unit must be adjacent to an enemy unit or it will never withdraw.

The enemy unit must be projecting a ZOC or the friendly unit will never withdraw.

A enemy unit will never project a ZOC across a river ( at least I think so) so the friendly unit will not withdraw.

A enemy unit will never project a ZOC if it has disruption of 3 or 4 so the friendly unit will not withdraw.
.



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Post #: 39
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/21/2012 11:28:54 PM   
Joe 98


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And on top of that, if a unit is suppose to withdraw, a dice is bowled, a table consulted and sometimes withdraw will not happen anyhow.


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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/22/2012 10:32:57 PM   
Korsun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

And on top of that, if a unit is suppose to withdraw, a dice is bowled, a table consulted and sometimes withdraw will not happen anyhow.




Thanks for your answers, Joe. What charts or formulas are used for this initial w/d test to see if a unit withdraws? I can't find documentation on that. The normal w/d test should be D100 + mod /unit quality and the result determines the effect of withdrawal. Cause I encounter that "no withrawal thing" often in Carentan while all conditions seem to be met.

< Message edited by Korsun -- 11/22/2012 10:34:42 PM >

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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/23/2012 3:09:30 PM   
Korsun


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After some research and testing I doubt that there is a check whether the unit withdraws or not. I may have found the reason for some of the units to not withdrawing properly for no apparent reason. It is the red hexes being shown when a unit retreats (in case it actually withdraws). If one of these red hexes is in an EZOC there will be no retreat. If the unit then fails the w/d check there will be a message "...blocked by EZOC." This message does not pop up when the w/d test is passed.

I don't know whether this is WAD or not and I am not entirely sure about it. But an additional die roll could not be found in the log file.

EDIT: In the manual it says : "The red hexes show the rout it must take to reach a green hex". In some cases this calculation seems to be off I guess.

< Message edited by Korsun -- 11/23/2012 3:42:54 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/23/2012 3:45:52 PM   
Korsun


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The marked unit cannot withdraw because it is being "blocked by EZOC". The forrest hex to the lower left though should not be an EZOC. That's why assume it has sth. to do with the calculation of the red hexes.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Korsun -- 11/23/2012 4:59:23 PM >

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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/24/2012 5:32:13 AM   
Joe 98


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The unit would attempt to withdraw south west from one forest hex into another. Perhaps it doesn't have enought movement points to do so.

You can also check that the unit switched into Attack posture as it needs to do so to move.



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Post #: 44
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/24/2012 8:45:29 AM   
Korsun


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Withdrawing units should be able to move at least one hex regardless of MP. In fact, when I remove the Allied stack to the lower right the forest hex to the south west becomes an eligible w/d hex. If you want I can upload the save file and you can have a shot. This seems like a bug to me.

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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/24/2012 10:03:43 AM   
Joe 98


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If the unit was trying to withdraw south it cannot do so because the hex would be overstacked.

Yes please upload the file.  Matrix have recently desabled ZIP files.


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Post #: 46
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/24/2012 10:16:46 AM   
Korsun


Posts: 126
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From: Frankfurt, Germany
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Save File


click on the small download button besides the green arrow (the smallest download button, the rest seems to be spam). Couldn't upload it directly. It says the file was too big. Why did they remove the zip option??

< Message edited by Korsun -- 11/24/2012 10:20:43 AM >

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RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/25/2012 10:24:25 PM   
Joe 98


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I opened your scenario.

It is now the German turn

That German unit is at Disruption level 4.

I found a nearby German unit with Disruption level of zero and moved it to stack with that unit.

I made sure both units are in Withdrawal posture.

The first unit, as you noticed did not withdraw. The second unit did withdraw.

The reason is: If a unit has a higher disruption level the distance it withdraws is lower. If it has a lower disruption level, the distance it withdraws will be higher.

The original unit had a high disruption level so it was set to withdraw a short distance. It would normally withdraw through that wooded hex but did not have enough movement points. it did not withdraw and it took a hit as it is suppsed to.

When we helped test the 1.04 patch back in March, we too found instances where units did not withdraw. In every case the developer gave a valid explanation.

Where the manual says “the unit will always withdraw” the manual is wrong.
.
.

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Post #: 48
RE: Final Rule on Withdrawal - 11/26/2012 2:30:29 PM   
Korsun


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Okay, thank your for having a closer look. Looks as though this w/d behaviour has been there ever since, at least I checked version 1.00. So, I will accept this as WAD. Think the problem is that the manual is somewhat misleading.

Cheers

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