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Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 5:32:39 PM

mariof2

Posts: 15
Joined: 7/27/2011
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Hi all,

What benefit do you get from transferring your high exp pilots to training command?

Also same for rotating home for 180 days?

Post #: 1

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 6:12:57 PM

GreyJoy

Posts: 6750
Joined: 3/18/2011
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As far as i've read through other similar threads, for the allies TRACOM is nothing more than a "box" where to put your elite pilots, while for the Japs it can be usefull in order to speed up the training process of the Rookies.

I ignore completely the utility of the 180 days thing. sorry

(in reply to mariof2)

Post #: 2

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 6:27:46 PM

Erkki

Posts: 1461
Joined: 2/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreyJoy

As far as i've read through other similar threads, for the allies TRACOM is nothing more than a "box" where to put your elite pilots, while for the Japs it can be usefull in order to speed up the training process of the Rookies.

I ignore completely the utility of the 180 days thing. sorry

I use it all the time...

Mostly because the click, Y, click, Y cycle sometimes happens with a pilot not in reserve and he gets sent into the limbo for 180 days.

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Post #: 3

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 6:43:58 PM

Norm3

Posts: 496
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Wild and Wonderful WV, just don't drink the water
Status: offline

Ditto. my fingers and mouse are not the best at working together.

(in reply to Erkki)

Post #: 4

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 6:44:37 PM

mariof2

Posts: 15
Joined: 7/27/2011
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I know you can send them to training command and from there you can assign them to a designated training group** where they speed up pilot training (which I do). However, do you get any benefit from them just sitting in the training command pool?

(in reply to mariof2)

Post #: 5

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 7:56:35 PM

Alfred

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Joined: 9/28/2006
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Training is not really improved by having experienced pilots amongst the rookies.

Pilots in TRACOM will speed up the graduation process. Pilots enter flight school and it takes them 12 months to graduate. TRACOM can push some pilots to complete a semester quicker, thereby ultimately graduating in less than 12 months. However additional trainees do not enter flight school to fill the spots vacated by the quicker graduating pilots.

Alfred

(in reply to mariof2)

Post #: 6

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 8:09:52 PM

JohnDillworth

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Joined: 3/19/2009
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BTW, I have found that the single most important factor in training is the inspiration level of the leader. Makes a big difference in fast pilots acquire skills . a guy leading a group with an inspiration level in the high 40's will add skills to pilots and a very slow rate

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Post #: 7

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 9:02:36 PM

Norm3

Posts: 496
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From: Wild and Wonderful WV, just don't drink the water
Status: offline

Great info!
thanks.
So adding pilots to TRACOM only speeds up arrival of some. i had been putting vetern pilots in there from various types (fighter/bomber/recon/ect.) to improve skills, so that does not matter then. Thanks, i' ll try and use my veterns a bit better.
one more question, does the skill/experiance of vet pilot determine if or how many might graduate sooner?
Thanks

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 8

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 9:17:25 PM

Alfred

Posts: 4938
Joined: 9/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Norm3

Great info!
thanks.
So adding pilots to TRACOM only speeds up arrival of some. i had been putting vetern pilots in there from various types (fighter/bomber/recon/ect.) to improve skills, so that does not matter then. Thanks, i' ll try and use my veterns a bit better.
one more question, does the skill/experiance of vet pilot determine if or how many might graduate sooner?
Thanks

Don't know for certain, details of TRACOM are a closely guarded secret kept by the devs. However I don't believe so.

TRACOM essentially determines whether the trainees in a specific class get to skip the next class and move on to the following class. Therefore the practical issue is how many trainees are in each class. That is directly based on the monthly intake which is different for each nationality.

Alfred

(in reply to Norm3)

Post #: 9

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 9:23:23 PM

dr.hal

Posts: 2979
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: online

John, a follow up question for clarification. Does it matter what type of squadron the leader is in (training, bombing, etc.) to have this accelerated impact due to his level of inspiration? In addition, does it matter if the leader is good as a patrol pilot with great inspiration and you put him into a fighter squadron to realize the increase? Thanks in advance. Hal

(in reply to Norm3)

Post #: 10

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/27/2011 10:08:54 PM

Alfred

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Joined: 9/28/2006
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If you look closely at your squadrons you will see that not every squadron leader is actually assigned as a pilot to the squadron. Some are both leaders and pilots in the squadron, some have different individuals for the two roles.

Anytime you move a pilot into a new flying discipline he will suffer a drop in overall experience and of course his previously trained skill set may not be appropriate for his new duties. But his leadership etc figures are not affected.

Alfred

(in reply to dr.hal)

Post #: 11

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/28/2011 6:57:27 AM

Capt Hornblower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Training is not really improved by having experienced pilots amongst the rookies.

...

Alfred

This directly contradicts the manual (p. 260, top), which states that moving experienced pilots to training squadrons (designated as such by the player) helps increase the rate of skills acquisition by green pilots assigned to the unit from training command. (See last sentence of the paragraph.)

On the subject of 180-day rotation, there seems to be a consensus that this function has no benefit whatsoever to the player and is only chosen as a pilot's assignment by mistake.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 12

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/28/2011 8:11:07 AM

Alfred

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Training is not really improved by having experienced pilots amongst the rookies.

...

Alfred

This directly contradicts the manual (p. 260, top), which states that moving experienced pilots to training squadrons (designated as such by the player) helps increase the rate of skills acquisition by green pilots assigned to the unit from training command. (See last sentence of the paragraph.)

On the subject of 180-day rotation, there seems to be a consensus that this function has no benefit whatsoever to the player and is only chosen as a pilot's assignment by mistake.

And if you had paid close attention to the second sentence in that paragraph you would have noticed it only applied to dedicated "Training Groups" which are not the same thing as a group on a training mission. Dedicated "Training Groups" were removed in an early patch and are not present now.

Alfred

(in reply to Capt Hornblower)

Post #: 13

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/28/2011 8:50:28 AM

Capt Hornblower

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
And if you had paid close attention to the second sentence in that paragraph you would have noticed it only applied to dedicated "Training Groups" which are not the same thing as a group on a training mission. Dedicated "Training Groups" were removed in an early patch and are not present now.

Alfred

Now how is one supposed to know that there was a special sort of Training Group that was once a part of the game but isn't now? It's not mentioned in any of the included read-me files. And if this is indeed the case, would it also be true that the programmers removed the code (assuming it existed in the first place; if it didn't, then the communication between the programmers and the document writers was abysmal) that provided the bonus to skill acquisition given by experienced pilots being present in a squadron? I'm going to guess not, as programmers (like most human beings) don't like to do work they don't have to do.

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 14

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/28/2011 9:58:13 AM

Itdepends

Posts: 906
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Considering the programmers that continue to make improvements to the game see little if any financial return for their work- and given the level of patching, customisation and support they do on this game far excees anything I've seen from a commercial company- I'd say they're doing fine.

(in reply to Capt Hornblower)

Post #: 15

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/28/2011 10:31:06 AM

Oliver Heindorf

Posts: 1909
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
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back on topic : TRACOM makes it as Alfred described but I read somewhere, that to have a useful TRACOM works properly you needed min. 10 Pilots of each nation in it. That means, only USAAF Pilots mostly meet the required 10 Pilots. There is no usage if one NZ, one AUS, two UK pilots in it. and if memory serves right, there is no additional usage if more then 10 pilots sent as trainers to TRACOM.

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Post #: 16

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/28/2011 10:52:17 AM

Alfred

Posts: 4938
Joined: 9/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Norm3

Great info!
thanks.
So adding pilots to TRACOM only speeds up arrival of some. i had been putting vetern pilots in there from various types (fighter/bomber/recon/ect.) to improve skills, so that does not matter then. Thanks, i' ll try and use my veterns a bit better.
one more question, does the skill/experiance of vet pilot determine if or how many might graduate sooner?
Thanks

Don't know for certain, details of TRACOM are a closely guarded secret kept by the devs. However I don't believe so.

TRACOM essentially determines whether the trainees in a specific class get to skip the next class and move on to the following class. Therefore the practical issue is how many trainees are in each class. That is directly based on the monthly intake which is different for each nationality.

Alfred

Further to the above, TRACOM helps in maintaining the experience level of graduates. Each nationality has it's own experience level. New graduates come out with an experience which is in a range +/- the national level. The TRACOM instructors help to minimise the amount of below national experience level the graduate comes out with. The TRACOM assistance will not produce a graduate above the national experience level.

So it is totally incorrect to say that TRACOM does nothing. Whether it is worth it, particularly for the Allies, is another matter and up to the individual player. One thing to remember is that the Elf specifically stated that TRACOM was instituted to benefit the Japanese side, the issue arising out of the vocal "whining" (my term, his was a more diplomatic term) from certain players.

Alfred

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 17

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/28/2011 11:04:15 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 6590
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From: Finland/Israel/Romania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

back on topic : TRACOM makes it as Alfred described but I read somewhere, that to have a useful TRACOM works properly you needed min. 10 Pilots of each nation in it. That means, only USAAF Pilots mostly�meet the required 10 Pilots. There is no usage if one NZ, one AUS, two UK pilots in it. and if memory serves right, there is no additional usage if more then 10 pilots sent as trainers to TRACOM.

Actually, it is EVERY 10 pilots, that have effect. So there is no difference in effect between 10 pilots and 18 pilots...but there is additional effect between 10 and 20.

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(in reply to Oliver Heindorf)

Post #: 18

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/28/2011 11:09:00 AM

Oliver Heindorf

Posts: 1909
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

back on topic : TRACOM makes it as Alfred described but I read somewhere, that to have a useful TRACOM works properly you needed min. 10 Pilots of each nation in it. That means, only USAAF Pilots mostly�meet the required 10 Pilots. There is no usage if one NZ, one AUS, two UK pilots in it. and if memory serves right, there is no additional usage if more then 10 pilots sent as trainers to TRACOM.

Actually, it is EVERY 10 pilots, that have effect. So there is no difference in effect between 10 pilots and 18 pilots...but there is additional effect between 10 and 20.

Ah ! Yes, that was ist. Thank you !

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Post #: 19

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 7/28/2011 1:43:55 PM

JohnDillworth

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Joined: 3/19/2009
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quote:

ohn, a follow up question for clarification. Does it matter what type of squadron the leader is in (training, bombing, etc.) to have this accelerated impact due to his level of inspiration? In addition, does it matter if the leader is good as a patrol pilot with great inspiration and you put him into a fighter squadron to realize the increase? Thanks in advance. Hal

Hmmmm, haven't done that experiment yet. I usually fill out a group with replacements, click on the leader and scroll through until I find one that has a high inspiration level. Then I train them in the desired skill. once they hit 60 or 70 I go through the group and add them to the replacement pool and fill up with a fresh batch of new kids. I'll have to try something like a high inspiration and a high naval skill to see if I can get better torpedo plane pilots.

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Post #: 20

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 10/19/2012 3:12:49 PM

nashvillen

Posts: 3987
Joined: 7/3/2006
From: Christiana, TN
Status: offline

Clarification on "national experience level", please?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
<snip>
Further to the above, TRACOM helps in maintaining the experience level of graduates. Each nationality has it's own experience level. New graduates come out with an experience which is in a range +/- the national level. The TRACOM instructors help to minimise the amount of below national experience level the graduate comes out with. The TRACOM assistance will not produce a graduate above the national experience level.
<snip>

There are several mentions of this "national experience level". Is there a chart somewhere showing this level? I seem to remember one for LCUs, but have not found one for pilots. Again, probably my failure to look in the right place, but, I promise, I have tried, resulting in finding this thread from July of 2011.

Also, I have seen significant increase in accelerated pilots from my IJNAF and IJAAF training schools with my TRACOM pilots (~100 IJAAF and ~200 IJNAF).

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Post #: 21

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 10/19/2012 3:31:55 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 22258
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From: San Antonio, TX
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Nashvillen,

What I think Alfred is referring to is the default experience of 'trained' pilots emerging from the 12 month training program. This varies by branch of military and, in the case of the Allies, by nationality too.

For the Japanese, you could consider the IJAAF and IJNAF as two separate 'nationality experience' presets and defaults for trained pilots. This experience starts at a certain value in 1941 and, depending on scenario settings, generally tapers off thereafter.

Hope this is what you are looking for.

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Post #: 22

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 10/19/2012 6:31:18 PM

aphrochine

Posts: 187
Joined: 3/24/2008
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Training is not really improved by having experienced pilots amongst the rookies.

...

Alfred

This directly contradicts the manual (p. 260, top), which states that moving experienced pilots to training squadrons (designated as such by the player) helps increase the rate of skills acquisition by green pilots assigned to the unit from training command. (See last sentence of the paragraph.)

On the subject of 180-day rotation, there seems to be a consensus that this function has no benefit whatsoever to the player and is only chosen as a pilot's assignment by mistake.

And if you had paid close attention to the second sentence in that paragraph you would have noticed it only applied to dedicated "Training Groups" which are not the same thing as a group on a training mission. Dedicated "Training Groups" were removed in an early patch and are not present now.

Alfred

Contradicts the volume of unscientific observation I've made playing this game pertaining the 50-60 Exp training band. I typically take my TRACOMs and put them in packs of 5 into training mission squadrons with 50+ Exp pilots. Their EXP goes up much faster.

It's the same thing if you put 50+ pilots into a front line squadron where they fly sorties daily. their Exp goes up when the average squadron EXP is higher than theirs. I've not seen anything indicating this function is limited to "Training Squadrons".

Take 2 squadrons and stuff it full of Replacements. They'll train fast, with little outside influence quite until they hit 50 Exp. Then their exp slows greatly. Take that one of those squadrons and and give it a few higher exp pilots, so that the AVG Exp is 1-2 points above 50. This squadron will see more pilots reason 60 Exp than the other squadron. This is obvsersion from 2 PBEM where I had several 50+ only squadrons training along side 1 or 2 50+ Squadrons with TRACOM inside. Those squadrons trained faster every time.

For this reason, my training scheme is as follows.

Rookie Squadrons: Train Replacements to 50 Exp, then those pilots get dumped into Reserve and the squadron refilled with Replacements

Advanced Training: 5-8 TRACOM pilots (or high 70's Exp) with the remainder filled in with pilots training the 50-60 band. As pilots reach 60 Exp, they are send to Reserve and replaced with a new 50 Exp pilot.

This has resulted in 100's of reserve 60 Exp pilots in my current game in late '43.

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(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 23

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 10/20/2012 6:17:40 AM

Alfred

Posts: 4938
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nashvillen

Clarification on "national experience level", please?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred
<snip>
Further to the above, TRACOM helps in maintaining the experience level of graduates. Each nationality has it's own experience level. New graduates come out with an experience which is in a range +/- the national level. The TRACOM instructors help to minimise the amount of below national experience level the graduate comes out with. The TRACOM assistance will not produce a graduate above the national experience level.
<snip>

There are several mentions of this "national experience level". Is there a chart somewhere showing this level? I seem to remember one for LCUs, but have not found one for pilots. Again, probably my failure to look in the right place, but, I promise, I have tried, resulting in finding this thread from July of 2011.

Also, I have seen significant increase in accelerated pilots from my IJNAF and IJAAF training schools with my TRACOM pilots (~100 IJAAF and ~200 IJNAF).

It is understandable you failed to find the chart. It is located in a non intuitive location.

The default national experience level chart is found in the Editor Manual at s.3.5.1.1

Alfred

(in reply to nashvillen)

Post #: 24

RE: Trnsfering skilled pilots to Training Command - 10/20/2012 8:15:05 AM

btbw

Posts: 379
Joined: 11/1/2011
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My experience with training:
Leadership of leader of training airgroup = mostly affect on EXP of rookies
Inspiration = mostly affect on Skill which training
Admin = fatique
Skill = dont affect nothing or im dont see difference

For my training i use next trick - found airgroup with PILOT as Leader, add to group highest EXP pilot from pool (different type pilot even better), remove all other pilots and remove Leader, assign highest EXP pilot as Active pilot so he become as Leader with high probability of INSP/LEAD/ADMIN skills (rare cause when pilot cannnot be leader is his rank mismatched or promotion rank also mismatched with rank of usual leader). Another trick (if you have huge train group, restricted and dont have any other use but with fixed leader) - add to group few high Exp pilots and divide group, first section will have fixed poor leader, but another go your pilots as leaders.
Airgroups with fixed leader im use:
Restricted - train with replace leader (Insp/Lead) or without it (for partial train second skill like Strafe/Search etc).
Non-restricted - replace leader with needed skills and sent to action (section with fixed leader from trick above also can be used in action or as support - search, cap, recon etc).

(in reply to Alfred)

Post #: 25