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RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm

 
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RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/23/2011 1:42:13 AM   
Mynok


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Guys, who's to say what a 'trained' pilot is? Anyone done combat testing of different skill and experience levels to such extent as they can honestly say they know what an effective training level is?

I sure can't. I train my Jap guys to 70 skill and send them into the fray. They'll do what they do.


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Post #: 31
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/23/2011 2:22:50 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 14893
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Guys, who's to say what a 'trained' pilot is? Anyone done combat testing of different skill and experience levels to such extent as they can honestly say they know what an effective training level is?

I sure can't. I train my Jap guys to 70 skill and send them into the fray. They'll do what they do.



That's what I use too - 70 for primary Skill. I would "like" their Experience to be 50, but many are not. Whether I hold a pilot in training longer (to get their Experience increased) depends on how deep is the pool at the time. Poverty makes me less picky.

For secondary skills I use a lower target. Dive bomber pilots I try for 70 Nav Bomb and 50 Nav Search. and so on.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 32
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/23/2011 3:19:08 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 5897
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: online

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Guys, who's to say what a 'trained' pilot is? Anyone done combat testing of different skill and experience levels to such extent as they can honestly say they know what an effective training level is?

I sure can't. I train my Jap guys to 70 skill and send them into the fray. They'll do what they do.



That's what I use too - 70 for primary Skill. I would "like" their Experience to be 50, but many are not. Whether I hold a pilot in training longer (to get their Experience increased) depends on how deep is the pool at the time. Poverty makes me less picky.

For secondary skills I use a lower target. Dive bomber pilots I try for 70 Nav Bomb and 50 Nav Search. and so on.

+1

Same targets, same reasons ...


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Pax

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 33
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/25/2011 9:59:38 PM   
Alpha77

 

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From: Westfalen
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I have a feeling that the real life like described above may be quite good modelled in game.

Ex: I screwed up with some missions against Port Blair. The Brits still have all the old planes onboard (Fulmar, Sea Hurricane). While I send the Hurries for sweep and light cap level, I had the Albacores and Swordfish set to naval. I did not see a fleet near Port Blair. But their was one (cruiser fleet) all the old British planes flew happily to bomb/torp that ships, but they were in range of LBA fighters from Port Blair the Jap had bigger numbers of Tonies there I found out.

The Tonies (ca. 30!) flew CAP over their ships and literally slaughtered my Brits (The Hurries weren´t flying escort but a useless sweep which brought nothing). However the poor Fulmar flew an escort and were also torn apart. When I checked the remains of the disaster I noted the Fulmar group had regained their skills ! Which dissapeared before cause I had to draw new pilots (the RN groups will size up due to a bigger CV capacity with an upgrade in 4/43) to the RN sqdrs. The reason was of course, the rookies weren´t very good and the average skills and exp of the units got down. And so the "major skills" at the unit screen dissapeared. But they were back after the battle. How is that possible ??? Well seems most of the rookies were shot down while some of the old vets survived. Pretty gritty but seems realistic ! Find this game still amazing sometimes

Btw. Not a single hit on the ships Albacore group down to 4 planes, Fulmar 6 left (all vet pilots!)

< Message edited by Alpha77 -- 7/25/2011 10:08:19 PM >

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 34
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/25/2011 10:24:40 PM   
Mynok


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The fleet must not have been in the Port Blair hex or your sweep would have attacked the Tonies. We all make snafu's like that.

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(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 35
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/26/2011 5:40:53 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25309
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

Guys, who's to say what a 'trained' pilot is? Anyone done combat testing of different skill and experience levels to such extent as they can honestly say they know what an effective training level is?

I sure can't. I train my Jap guys to 70 skill and send them into the fray. They'll do what they do.



I go by the old school method (from past wargames, like the original Steel Panthers and the 8 bit games based on a normal scale of 10-100 (or 99) Steel Panthers expanded on this by having a system of 10 to 140.

I'll use some specific past examples per the game manuals:

War in Russia (the original)

Normal conscripts (untrained) of new units built started with exp 10. They auto trained up to a max value of 50. After that they can only gain experience through combat.

an exception to this was Ger side, up to a set date (up to end 1942 IIRC). New units built at exp 70. This was done to represent a decently/well trained cadre of soldiers that could be tapped (from whatever given source) After the expiration date, they built at exp 10 as Soviet. This prevented the Ger side from losing exp too fast. A similar system was in USAAF only for the US player. Their 'replacement' pilots came in at 2/3rds the exp level of the gaining unit whilst the Ger side gained replacements at 10% of the exp level of the gaining unit so their exp levels would drop faster if they suffered heavy losses. This rule was in place to represent the larger more lengthy training period of the incoming US pilots. System worked well......as initially (1943) the US side would suffer heavy losses but their exp levels wouldn't drop too much below 50 unless the unit in question kept getting slaughtered.

WiR considered any unit at exp level 80 to be elite. At this level on the Soviet side, the unit became a "Guards" unit.

Steel Panthers designated exp levels as follows (including WAW)

10-49 - Green/untrained/partially trained
50-69 - trained but green (aka little to no combat based on actual value. 50 for example is fully trained...no combat exp. 60 would be halfway to veteran and unbloodied but fully trained)
70-99 "Veteran" (trained and experienced)
100-140 "elite"

Personally i always felt it was a shame that scenario designers were so conservative in assigning values so the 100+ were rarely if ever used. One exception was Bill Wilder who's views on HMG effective led him to create scenarios where those units had 100+ exp to make them more effective prior to later patches of WAW. Another chronic problem was that every nation....minor or major had at least one "Champion" who complained loudly that their nation (men) were not fairly represented so alot of scenarios were reworked so that almost everyone had near identical exp levels. (between 60 and 75) Making the game very generic. A symptom of the age of the Internet IMHO. Some designers/devs felt that it was more "historical" to reprsent better armies/units via their leader skill ratings.

PacWar was pretty much the same.

scale 10-99. 50 was considered fully trained. 70 veteran/very well trained. 90+ elite

Training in pacwar from 10 to 50 generally took 6 months of game time which matched latewar USN estimates for graduates. PacWar's advantage over WitP was that you couldn't exploit the model with "training by combat" missions. The weekly turns prevented this tactic so players had to use the actual "training" mission or else commit the partially trained units to combat by necessity. Japan's downward curve on the exp graph was well represented.

My take on UV/WitP/AE training issue is that op losses never matched the exp ratings presented thus allowing the exploit. My reasoning was, if you put me into a combat plane (definately exp level 10) and i try to fly a bombing mission against even an empty base. Assuming i get off the ground my odds of not dying are low because i've not only never piloted an aircraft, its doubly difficult to handle a high performance aircraft (vs. say a trainer)

So if this were fully represented....anyone who put exp 20 or 25 pilots any type of combat mission should suffer heavy operational losses so prohibitive that its not a viable tactic. But in original WitP/UV, it was. AE improves things, but one can still forgo training missions largly. I remain of the view that a game of this scale should never attempt to represent indiv pilots. What's next? representing soldiers and their skill sets? Oy!

AE hasn't changed things so much nor have i seen combat results to make me think differently re: the exp levels. There was a deliberate dumbing down of certain exp levels on the reasoning that excessive results were being generated by said very high exp values. Similar reasonology was used for future versions of SP:WAW.




(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 36
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/26/2011 8:46:25 PM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
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quote:

What's next? representing soldiers and their skill sets?


Yes! Finally, the grunts will get their due. Something like this should work:


Name.......Rank....Rifle....MG....Grn.....Art.....AA.....Eng....Veh....Repair...Rest
Pyle, G.....Pvt.......55......40......43......37.....31......19......22......42.........99

and you should be able to train each soldier in each individual skill.





_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 37
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/26/2011 9:01:59 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 492
Joined: 9/24/2010
From: Westfalen
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

What's next? representing soldiers and their skill sets?


Yes! Finally, the grunts will get their due. Something like this should work:


Name.......Rank....Rifle....MG....Grn.....Art.....AA.....Eng....Veh....Repair...Rest
Pyle, G.....Pvt.......55......40......43......37.....31......19......22......42.........99

and you should be able to train each soldier in each individual skill.








You forgot some skills however......

drinking.........
fraternising........
cursing........


(in reply to Blackhorse)
Post #: 38
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/26/2011 9:08:32 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6057
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

What's next? representing soldiers and their skill sets?


Yes! Finally, the grunts will get their due. Something like this should work:


Name.......Rank....Rifle....MG....Grn.....Art.....AA.....Eng....Veh....Repair...Rest
Pyle, G.....Pvt.......55......40......43......37.....31......19......22......42.........99

and you should be able to train each soldier in each individual skill.








You forgot some skills however......

drinking.........
fraternising........
cursing........




Sounds like some role-playing games


_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 39
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/26/2011 9:27:15 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25309
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


quote:

ORIGINAL: Blackhorse

quote:

What's next? representing soldiers and their skill sets?


Yes! Finally, the grunts will get their due. Something like this should work:


Name.......Rank....Rifle....MG....Grn.....Art.....AA.....Eng....Veh....Repair...Rest
Pyle, G.....Pvt.......55......40......43......37.....31......19......22......42.........99

and you should be able to train each soldier in each individual skill.








You forgot some skills however......

drinking.........
fraternising........
cursing........




Curses! beat me to it,

however we can add "Hgr% to Fat%

(Hangover)


Could impact the modified combat odds after calculating Pi and subtracting the doubled assault value unless it's Tuesday.

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 40
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/26/2011 9:29:16 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 492
Joined: 9/24/2010
From: Westfalen
Status: offline
Yup, like in the old Starforce (or whatever) games. We can add also esper, bargaining, lock picking, healing, laser gun skill etc. Would be nice, but I guess one turn would last 1 week then  However we never needed to play RPGs anymore as we have it all in one  We also have Sim City etc. already....(means building up bases etc).

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 41
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/26/2011 9:31:33 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25309
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
or like Mass Effect.

I'd love to try a Psi powered character but in the end i always pick the soldier class because they get to wierd the really BIG guns.


BFG9000 anyone?


(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 42
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/26/2011 10:17:09 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 492
Joined: 9/24/2010
From: Westfalen
Status: offline
Totally OT, sorry, but:


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 43
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/26/2011 10:39:50 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25309
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
I'll see your hand and raise you....






Attachment (1)

(in reply to Alpha77)
Post #: 44
RE: Pilot Training Alogrithm - 7/27/2011 12:37:00 AM   
Blackhorse


Posts: 1926
Joined: 8/20/2000
From: Eastern US
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alpha77


You forgot some skills however......

drinking.........
fraternising........
cursing........




Sounds like some role-playing games



Actually, that's a pretty fair summary of my Army career.



_____________________________

WitP-AE -- US LCU & AI Stuff

Oddball: Why don't you knock it off with them negative waves? Why don't you dig how beautiful it is out here? Why don't you say something righteous and hopeful for a change?
Moriarty: Crap!

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 45
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