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Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union?

 
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Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 2:30:49 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I think Adam Tooze in his excellent The Wages of Destruction: The Making and Breaking of the Nazi Economy manages to sum it up in one single paragraph, page 420, scanned below:




Attachment (1)

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Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn

Post #: 1
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 2:34:49 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1369
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline 		Major copyright violation?

_____________________________

For the longest time I thought I'd buy WitW to ensure my legitimate voice of criticism could be heard. But as WitE continues down the path of Soviet Army fantasy-land, I've given up all hope of enjoying either game again.

(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 2
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 2:39:24 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Major copyright violation?


Lol, I'd say promotion.

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Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 3
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 2:47:35 PM   
cmill

 

Posts: 25
Joined: 4/26/2011
Status: offline 		Not sure how that'd be copyright violation. Scholars, students, and writers quote and cite other people's works all the time--as long as you cite the work used, there shouldn't be a problem. Photocopying the page directly is no different than typing it out by hand as far as I can figure. Unless of course you're distributing it.


(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 4
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 2:50:57 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Btw, this book is a proper myth-buster. For example, it shows how Speer's widely accepted claims that German economy wasn't fully mobilized during the first years of the war are just pure horse manure.

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 5
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 3:22:45 PM   
Mynok


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Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).


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(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 6
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 3:29:25 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6057
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heliodorus04

Major copyright violation?


Fair use.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 7
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 3:37:11 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).



I might violating copyrights if I told you.

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 8
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 4:16:39 PM   
sath

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline 		I imagine that there many things that happen that have been hidden or falsifide for reason or another. Half of writing history is hiding the truth.

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Post #: 9
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 4:49:56 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12069
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).



I might violating copyrights if I told you.


Giving away the ending of a good book is called 'spoiling' not 'copyright violation'.

_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown


(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 10
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 5:53:41 PM   
Chris10


Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).


You are right on this. Corruption and negligence was rampant in Germany at the time as the important positions in the responsible authoritys where occupied by egocentric selfrighteous ideological driven nazis who filled their own pockets rather than with real professionals and until mid 43 the german industry was only using relative little capacity for war equipment production. They started tighten things up a lot from summer 43 on and even under heaviest bombing raids in 44 production jumped up various times. Things could have been very different if Germanys Industry would have been geared up to full scale war production from 39 on.

< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/30/2011 5:54:54 PM >

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 11
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 6:06:43 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).


You are right on this. Corruption and negligence was rampant in Germany at the time as the important positions in the responsible authoritys where occupied by egocentric selfrighteous ideological driven nazis who filled their own pockets rather than with real professionals and until mid 43 the german industry was only using relative little capacity for war equipment production. They started tighten things up a lot from summer 43 on and even under heaviest bombing raids in 44 production jumped up various times. Things could have been very different if Germanys Industry would have been geared up to full scale war production from 39 on.


Lol, that is just repeating the myth.

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to Chris10)
Post #: 12
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 6:24:27 PM   
Chris10


Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke
Lol, that is just repeating the myth.

Interesting how always all the foreigners know more about our own country than we do..especially after studying these sort of things for 30 years and having natural access to paperwork/books and documents never translated nor published in other languages than german...



< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/30/2011 6:32:54 PM >

(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 13
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 6:25:59 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Btw, Speer really had motivation to cover the truth as a ruthless exploiter of slave labour. During the war he got the credit for major investments made between 1940-41, which bore fruit from 1942 on. His "success" was also propaganda for the worried civilians ("we can manage even if we don't have enough resources"). For some reason many western historians have accepted Speer's views without properly checking the facts.

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 14
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 6:32:10 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke
Lol, that is just repeating the myth.

Interesting how always all the foreigners know more about our own country than we do..especially after studying these sort of things for 30 years and having natural access to paperwork/books and documents never published nor translated into other languages than german...




Why do you repeat old myths on these boards then? What makes you think "foreigners" don't know German language? Why do you think "foreigners" don't have access to German archives? You are not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, are you?

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to Chris10)
Post #: 15
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 6:34:37 PM   
Chris10


Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke
You are not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, are you?

I see you are straight going into personal...sorry..cant bother with you then

(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 16
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 6:40:52 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6057
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline 		Green button.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 17
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 6:51:22 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Well one could argue intelligently about the merits of Speer without just repeating the old myths and questioning the knowledge of "foreigners"...

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 18
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 9:00:25 PM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1369
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Denver Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Well one could argue intelligently about the merits of Speer without just repeating the old myths and questioning the knowledge of "foreigners"...


Did I miss the memo where you alone get to decide what is fact and what is myth?
I'm not saying you're wrong about Speer or anything else. I'm just saying that debate has to start with some accommodation of other points of view.

_____________________________

For the longest time I thought I'd buy WitW to ensure my legitimate voice of criticism could be heard. But as WitE continues down the path of Soviet Army fantasy-land, I've given up all hope of enjoying either game again.

(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 19
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 10:00:03 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		It was the same memo that briefed about copyrights.

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to heliodorus04)
Post #: 20
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 10:12:03 PM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


Really? And what evidence does he provide for that, because the actual production numbers seem to fit Speer's claims (peak production in 1944).


You are right on this. Corruption and negligence was rampant in Germany at the time as the important positions in the responsible authoritys where occupied by egocentric selfrighteous ideological driven nazis who filled their own pockets rather than with real professionals and until mid 43 the german industry was only using relative little capacity for war equipment production. They started tighten things up a lot from summer 43 on and even under heaviest bombing raids in 44 production jumped up various times. Things could have been very different if Germanys Industry would have been geared up to full scale war production from 39 on.


Lol, that is just repeating the myth.


He is not repeating myths... He is saying what the SERIOUS history has been saying since many decades. Now you've just read a book that might prove this WAS a myth. Ok. That IS a great contribution. Believe me, I am going to BUY this book, therefore this thread bought Tooze a reader. YES But don't bash all of us who didn't know this Booze guy and honestly believe what the serious historians (as opposed to clowns: revisionists, etc.) have been saying for many decades. That Germany only fully mobilized her industry in 1943-44.

_____________________________



"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 21
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 11:07:29 PM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline 		Overall, Keke has made us an excellent service. The book seems really GOOD

http://www.complete-review.com/reviews/economic/toozea.htm

_____________________________



"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 22
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 11:09:09 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Ok, I realize I was a bit of an asshole there. My apologies.

I warmly recommend the book for anyone interested in WWII economics. It's an eye-opener.

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 23
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 11:11:48 PM   
Chris10


Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
He is not repeating myths... He is saying what the SERIOUS history has been saying since many decades. Now you've just read a book that might prove this WAS a myth. Ok. That IS a great contribution. Believe me, I am going to BUY this book, therefore this thread bought Tooze a reader. YES But don't bash all of us who didn't know this Booze guy and honestly believe what the serious historians (as opposed to clowns: revisionists, etc.) have been saying for many decades. That Germany only fully mobilized her industry in 1943-44.

Toozes numbers are not better than those obtained in the 60s or 70s or 80s...Germany has not been the Soviet Union where archives where closed up.
He just arranges them differently and personally I think he measures things with how economy works nowadays but things have been different back then.
As well he insinuates that Germanys conquering of entire Europe was nothing more than a lucky break and that even England alone would have had to ability to overcome Germay which is a total nonsens as UK was practically beaten by summer 41 and posed no threat and without US convoys and lend-lease UK would have just faded away little by little. The man must be seriously plagued by national pride blindness. Another stunning thing is that Tooze states that trade between USSR and Germany has been small which is an epic fail cause Germany was totally depending on russian ressource deliverys since the France campaign.
I could provide hard info too but I dont have time to elaborate half a book just to convince somebody in a forum...Iam sort of busy with my own stuff and doin a bit of work on the german version of WiTE which is scheduled to be releaded shortly.
I study the entire WWI-WWII problematic for over 30 years now and when one thing has become very clear in all that time then its that Germany has gone thru different kind of economys during the course of the war and only the last stage (War-Industry introduced between summer 42 and taken effect little by little from summer 43 on) allowed it to fully focus its Industrial potential on war production but it was far to late anyway.
In that regard I mention
Alan S. Milward: "Die deutsche Kriegs Wirtschaft 1939 bis 1945"
which is out of printing since over 45 years...

For each Tooze or Overy statement that Germany inevitably had to loose the war I can qoute 5 saying the opposite (all reputable military historians too..)


As an interesting sidenote I may add that even Churchill regretted the outcome of WWII just 1 year after its end.
Churchill held an antisowjetic speech in the US american University City Fulton which he repeated on Sept. 9th 1946 in Zurich: "We have to be united to stop the Russians", Churchill asked the US and Western Europe to stand together against the red threat and regardig the beaten Germany he added: "Well, obviously we have butchered the wrong pig"
The full speech has been printed in the english newspapers.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Ok, I realize I was a bit of an asshole there. My apologies.

I warmly recommend the book for anyone interested in WWII economics. It's an eye-opener.

nevermind...accepted
however..iam not agreeing with Tooze cause I think he is biased a fair bit and manipulates the numbers for his purpose...on the other hand...he wants to sell a book and make money,perras,plata,bucks,weed,pulver,kohle,kniste...so he to come up with something new cause the stuff has been published a hundred times before. I dont wanna disregard the entire book but some of his key conclusions are coming out of the worng assumptions...and he hasnt been there...my family has.. and we know excactly when things started to become more straight...up to mid 42 the german population hardly noticed that it was wartime and life continued nearly normal (except a little bombing here and there but nothing big), then thing started to change and where focussed on mobilizing craftmanship, changing productions...consume goods and other stuff started dissapearing..fabrics started working in 3 shifts of 8 hours and have night production (never happend before end 42) etc etc...all those little things you notice around you and which tell you that something is going to change drastically...we had 4 men in the war...1 fell in Stalingrad..the second on the eastern front around Donetz-Bassin (never got recovered) and 2 survided in the west...my grandmas mother and 2 of her older sisters where working at night shifts in fabrics making shells ...




< Message edited by Chris10 -- 6/30/2011 11:50:13 PM >

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 24
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 11:14:57 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4923
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke
Ok, I realize I was a bit of an asshole there. My apologies.


Geez mate, this is not you, did aliens steal real Keke and replaced him with the apologize-o-bot?

(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 25
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 11:28:08 PM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Oh, I take it back.

Chris, what the hell are you talking about? From your totally misinformed arguments it is plain to see that you have not read the book! What is your problem?

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 26
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 11:44:11 PM   
Chris10


Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Keke

Oh, I take it back.

Chris, what the hell are you talking about? From your totally misinformed arguments it is plain to see that you have not read the book! What is your problem?

nevermind...my point is standing...you can like it or not..its not going to affect my life so I dont have any problems.
thnx for the chitchat...

(in reply to Keke)
Post #: 27
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 6/30/2011 11:57:39 PM   
TulliusDetritus

 

Posts: 3810
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: Back to Reality :(
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10
I could provide hard info too but I dont have time to elaborate half a book just to convince somebody in a forum...Iam sort of busy with my own stuff and doin a bit of work on the german version of WiTE which is scheduled to be releaded shortly.
I study the entire WWI-WWII problematic for over 30 years now and when one thing has become very clear in all that time then its that Germany has gone thru different kind of economys during the course of the war and only the last stage (War-Industry introduced between summer 42 and taken effect little by little from summer 43 on) allowed it to fully focus its Industrial potential on war production but it was far to late anyway.


Chris, it's true that the thesis is very striking. After all, to produce more things (industrial stuff) you need to make some moves that are BIG, really big... So either the old historians saw these huge moves or pink elephants...

I mean, if in x factory you produce 100 tanks per month, you might decide this is not enough. You can expand that factory (more machines and workers) or two other choices: you build a new factory or you transform a civilian factory (er, one which was producing let's say cars or tractors). Well, there is a third choice: increase productivity.

I mean, these are HUGE things that can't be hidden. It's MASSIVE: think about the astronomical quantities of military materiel made in the US in WW2. I mean, you can't miss it. When historians were saying Germany only mobilized her forces in 1943-44, I am assuming they were tracking German industrial output, map: number of factories, year of creation, number of workers, etc. etc. And therefore they discovered that yes, German regime built/transformed many factories (or increased productivity) in 1943-44.

_____________________________



"Block is very important. If you think block is useless now it's ok. If you don't like block, why don't you take it with your face...?" -- Kung Fu master

(in reply to Chris10)
Post #: 28
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 7/1/2011 12:05:08 AM   
Keke


Posts: 3509
Joined: 3/12/2002
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10
nevermind...my point is standing...you can like it or not..its not going to affect my life so I dont have any problems.
thnx for the chitchat...


Why do pretend that you know the contents of the book? For example:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10
As well he insinuates that Germanys conquering of entire Europe was nothing more than a lucky break and that even England alone would have had to ability to overcome Germay which is a total nonsens as UK was practically beaten by summer 41 and posed no threat and without US convoys and lend-lease UK would have just faded away little by little. The man must be seriously plagued by national pride blindness.


Tooze doesn't claim any of those things. No lucky breaks nor UK surviving alone. Who are you actually criticizing here?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10
Another stunning thing is that Tooze states that trade between USSR and Germany has been small which is an epic fail cause Germany was totally depending on russian ressource deliverys since the France campaign.


If you even had read the paragraph I attached to the first post, you'd know that the "stunning thing" Tooze claims is only a figment of your own imagination. I ask again: Who do you think you are criticizing here?

_____________________________

Jyri

The eternal privilege of those who never act themselves: to interrogate, be dissatisfied, find fault.

- A. Solzhenitsyn


(in reply to Chris10)
Post #: 29
RE: Why Nazi Germany invaded Soviet Union? - 7/1/2011 12:08:04 AM   
Chris10


Posts: 114
Joined: 6/7/2011
From: Germany,living in Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus
Chris, it's true that the thesis is very striking. After all, to produce more things (industrial stuff) you need to make some moves that are BIG, really big... So either the old historians saw these huge moves or pink elephants...

I mean, if in x factory you produce 100 tanks per month, you might decide this is not enough. You can expand that factory (more machines and workers) or two other choices: you build a new factory or you transform a civilian factory (er, one which was producing let's say cars or tractors). Well, there is a third choice: increase productivity.

I mean, these are HUGE things that can't be hidden. It's MASSIVE: think about the astronomical quantities of military materiel made in the US in WW2. I mean, you can't miss it. When historians were saying Germany only mobilized her forces in 1943-44, I am assuming they were tracking German industrial output, map: number of factories, year of creation, number of workers, etc. etc. And therefore they discovered that yes, German regime built/transformed many factories (or increased productivity) in 1943-44.

It was not about making new fabrics but optimizing ressource usage and similar things
I partly answered to that in my previous post and if you allow I may quote myself

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chris10
I dont wanna disregard the entire book but some of his key conclusions are coming out of the worng assumptions...and he hasnt been there...my family has.. and we know excactly when things started to become more straight...up to mid 42 the german population hardly noticed that it was wartime and life continued nearly normal (except a little bombing here and there but nothing big), then things started to change and started focussing on mobilizing craftmanship and productions...consumer goods and other stuff started dissapearing from daily life and shops as fabrics swapped production...fabrics started working in 3 shifts of 8 hours and have night production (never happend any nightshift before end 42) etc etc...all those little things you notice around you and which tell you that something is going to change drastically...we had 4 men in the war...1 fell in Stalingrad..the second on the eastern front around Donetz-Bassin (never got recovered) and 2 survided in the west...my grandmas mother and 2 of her older sisters where working at night shifts in fabrics making shells ...




< Message edited by Chris10 -- 7/1/2011 12:15:53 AM >

(in reply to TulliusDetritus)
Post #: 30
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