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RE: Pelton vs Kamil

 
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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 9/28/2011 7:37:20 PM   
Kamil

 

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I think good idea for December could be forward strong-point defence 8-10 hexes before main line. If it works then increase of fighting effectiveness in January will be supplement by presence of forts what should greatly help in limiting further Soviet gains. (ground, elite status, casualties and destroyed units)

< Message edited by Kamil -- 9/28/2011 7:38:19 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 9/28/2011 10:52:46 PM   
Pelton

 

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Yes you got it right.

Pelton.

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/11/2011 5:09:12 PM   
Pelton

 

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Mud season has come and the summer O is a 8 turns away.

Its was a hard winter, but I was able to destory 88 arm pts

Should be an interesting summer of 42.

Pelton

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Post #: 93
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/11/2011 5:18:04 PM   
Q-Ball


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What does the relative OOBs look like now? Interested too in your tank strength.

I will be watching 1.05 games into 1942, to see if the Germans can actually make the Russians sweat a bit.....

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/11/2011 5:39:28 PM   
Kamil

 

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quote:

Pelton

Its was a hard winter, but I was able to destory 88 arm pts


Unfortunately I am quite stupid and I was withdrawing all kind of industry. If I had focused on ARM, my losses would have been around 30-40.

Arm losses will start to have impact in '43, now I suffer from manpower shortage.


OOB T43




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< Message edited by Kamil -- 10/11/2011 5:42:16 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 1:30:19 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 47 Spring begins

Looks like Kamil withdraw allong front where needed.

One really lacking part of this game is the about 300% unhistorical German tank replasement from winter to summer of 42. I think I gained 600 tanks and the historical Germans gained 3000ish. Come on guys can the Germans at least get historical replasements.








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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 1:34:48 AM   
Pelton

 

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Southern 1/2 of front.

Kamil you like everyone esle were ignoreant of armerment pts before 1.05, kinda why some poeple like myself had a field day getting over 100 in about everygame heheh.

One thing saving you is my moral is way below what 1.05 holds german moral at and the tank replacements are atleast 300% below historical another joke thats going to need to be fixed at some pt.


Not sure how this summer will play out you look to have strong defences. You did a great job during blizzard.




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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 1:36:37 AM   
Pelton

 

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OOB

The key to summer is if I can get better then 2.6 to 1 odds.




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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 1:42:29 AM   
Pelton

 

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I dont think so Q-ball. The system is so gamed agianst the German side I am thinking that 42 will now be more of a stalemate then before.

Tank replasements are a joke. not even semi close to historical during spring of 42.

I just see that Russian players running away from German spearheads like in 41.

Unless you can pocket units there is no point of attacking.

Just more digging in I am thinking. The fort rows just get thicker

Pelton

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 1:58:38 AM   
Kamil

 

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quote:

Pelton

I think I gained 600 tanks and the historical Germans gained 3000ish



Historically speaking German AFV production in '42 per month is on average 500. I assume 3/4 went east, what gives 750. In last two months You have received around 900 what seems more-less right.

< Message edited by Kamil -- 10/14/2011 2:02:21 AM >

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 3:49:24 AM   
Pelton

 

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You might be right but I beleive in December Germans only had 800ish tanks an by summer they had close to 3k.

Great game so far.

Pelton

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Post #: 101
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 7:40:29 AM   
veji1

 

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It's probably because in game there should be less write-offs and a lot more damaged tanks in 1941 (from running forward and the Blizzard) and then in the spring of 42 a special modifier apply to speed up massively there return to the line.

_____________________________

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 7:57:38 AM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

I dont think so Q-ball. The system is so gamed agianst the German side I am thinking that 42 will now be more of a stalemate then before.
***
I just see that Russian players running away from German spearheads like in 41.

Unless you can pocket units there is no point of attacking.

Just more digging in I am thinking. The fort rows just get thicker

Wow, some people will just never be happy... How much further are the Sovs going to run? And if they run, they will have to abandon all of the fortifications that you are complaining about.

And if you know what you're doing, those Sov forts just melt away, they don't provide any real protection. Your losses might exceed your magic 2.6:1 intially (but probably won't), but once you're through the fort belt you can either pocket them or force a retreat along a large portion of the front. After that, if you can't pull off some encirclements, either you're not doing it right or your opponent will be giving up huge swathes of territory.

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Post #: 103
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 12:23:38 PM   
Pelton

 

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First off land means nothing in this game its about braking the german army. Tarhunnas vs Gids. Pelton vs Hoooper to name a few.

Manpower centers have very little impact on game, mybee -10,000 men per turn for Russian.
Armerment production is now out of the question over rated and rail system and hvy meaning nothing.

So a smart Russian will simply try and hold fort belt (42)then retreat not letting the German pocket much of anything. The more he retreats the longer the German lines. The is no reason that the Russian player needs to defend land.

The Russian player can lose more then historical in land, men and production and still get a draw. As the game stands now the russian player should never lose more then historical in production or men.

But even if they do the game is fixed so the Russian player can win even if they lose more then historical in all areas, Tarhunnas vs Gids.

Its more then clear as these games get into 44.

I be happy when the general babysitting for the russian side ends and the game is more a reflection of historical.

As it stands now the only way the German can win is if the Russian quits.

Tarhunnas took far far more then historical in land, manpower centers, production and has killed 12 million russians and will still lose game if Gids keeps pushing. The German army is almost broken and there is still over 100 turns left in game.

You can't honestly tell me you thk thats historical or the games not fixxed for a Russian draw no matter how much better then historical the German player does.

The games VP system is a joke.
Russian nation moral is a joke after losing Leningrad/Moscow to Rostov.
Russian rail system is way over rated.
Russian production in general is still to high.
Russian manpower in general is still to high. It just never goes down even if they lose a bunch of city's. -10,000 per turn for losing Leningrad, Moscow to Rostov is a joke.
German armerment production is way off, really not evn close to historical. The Germans had piles of equipment, but no men to use them.

Yes 1.05 was a step in right direction, it took the game from 41 into 42, but now 43-45 needs allot of help.

There is no reason for the Germans to invade Russia at this point. You can't hit loses number, you can't hit production#s and even if you do the game is fixed so you will still get nothing better then a draw.


Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/14/2011 12:25:38 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 12:27:43 PM   
Pelton

 

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If they do come out with WiTW as the German why bother invading Russia if there is no upside?


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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 12:52:16 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
If they do come out with WiTW as the German why bother invading Russia if there is no upside?


Who the hell said it was ever a good idea to invade Russia? This is purely a question of victory points, not whether invading Russia will help Germany win the war.

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 1:06:10 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

First off land means nothing in this game its about braking the german army. Tarhunnas vs Gids. Pelton vs Hoooper to name a few.

Not quite true. While grabbing land might not help the Germans defeat the Soviets outright, it will certainly help keep the Sovs away from Berlin longer, which is currently how victory is determined. Moreover, I disagree that Gids will win vs Tarhunnas, I think Tarhunnas should be able to delay long enough for some kind of victory, probably a major victory. Tarhunnas will be much better off as he is pushed west and his front line is shortened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
So a smart Russian will simply try and hold fort belt (42)then retreat not letting the German pocket much of anything. The more he retreats the longer the German lines. The is no reason that the Russian player needs to defend land.

See previous point. In 1942, against a competent German opponent, I think the Sovs should be able to minimize troop losses or minimize land losse, but not both. If the Sovs are still retreating by late 1942 I think they'll be hard-pressed to win given time constraints.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
I be happy when the general babysitting for the russian side ends and the game is more a reflection of historical.

I wonder? I actually agree with you on many points (see below), but the incessant and insistent whining gets really old sometimes...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
As it stands now the only way the German can win is if the Russian quits.


Not so sure about this. You're not really displaying much imagination; I still think the best German strategy in 1942 is to dig in deep, beat the crap out of the Sov carpet, rinse and repeat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The games VP system is a joke. WELL, MAYBE NOT A JOKE BUT NEEDS SERIOUS WORK.
Russian nation moral is a joke after losing Leningrad/Moscow to Rostov. EFFECTS, OR POTENTIAL EFFECTS, SHOULD BE MORE SEVERE, BUT NOT SURE WHY YOU THINK THAT MORALE WOULD CERTAINLY FALL.
Russian rail system is way over rated. MAYBE, BUT DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE. MOREOVER, ONLY REALLY RELEVANT IN 1941/EARLY 1942.
Russian production in general is still to high. NOT SO SURE, MAYBE IN AREAS. SOVS MADE LOTS OF STUFF...
Russian manpower in general is still to high. It just never goes down even if they lose a bunch of city's. -10,000 per turn for losing Leningrad, Moscow to Rostov is a joke. MANPOWER MIGHT NEED TO BE TWEAKED.
German armerment production is way off, really not evn close to historical. The Germans had piles of equipment, but no men to use them. NO POSITION ON THIS, ALTHOUGH SOUNDS ABOUT RIGHT

See comments above IN CAPS.


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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 3:46:24 PM   
Manstein63


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

First off land means nothing in this game its about braking the german army. Tarhunnas vs Gids. Pelton vs Hoooper to name a few.

Manpower centers have very little impact on game, mybee -10,000 men per turn for Russian.
Armerment production is now out of the question over rated and rail system and hvy meaning nothing.

So a smart Russian will simply try and hold fort belt (42)then retreat not letting the German pocket much of anything. The more he retreats the longer the German lines. The is no reason that the Russian player needs to defend land.

The Russian player can lose more then historical in land, men and production and still get a draw. As the game stands now the russian player should never lose more then historical in production or men.

But even if they do the game is fixed so the Russian player can win even if they lose more then historical in all areas, Tarhunnas vs Gids.

Its more then clear as these games get into 44.

I be happy when the general babysitting for the russian side ends and the game is more a reflection of historical.

As it stands now the only way the German can win is if the Russian quits.

Tarhunnas took far far more then historical in land, manpower centers, production and has killed 12 million russians and will still lose game if Gids keeps pushing. The German army is almost broken and there is still over 100 turns left in game.

You can't honestly tell me you thk thats historical or the games not fixxed for a Russian draw no matter how much better then historical the German player does.

The games VP system is a joke.
Russian nation moral is a joke after losing Leningrad/Moscow to Rostov.
Russian rail system is way over rated.
Russian production in general is still to high.
Russian manpower in general is still to high. It just never goes down even if they lose a bunch of city's. -10,000 per turn for losing Leningrad, Moscow to Rostov is a joke.
German armerment production is way off, really not evn close to historical. The Germans had piles of equipment, but no men to use them.

Yes 1.05 was a step in right direction, it took the game from 41 into 42, but now 43-45 needs allot of help.

There is no reason for the Germans to invade Russia at this point. You can't hit loses number, you can't hit production#s and even if you do the game is fixed so you will still get nothing better then a draw.


Pelton


Pelton have you ever played the game as the Russians? Its not quite so easy as you seem to be making out. I agree that soviet Rail capacity may be overstated but it is still a balancing act between making sure that you have enough units at the front & removing factories. I agree that there should be some type of penalty for the Russian player if Moscow Lenningrad & Rostov are Lost in 1941. However as the Eastern Front was also a war about ideology I doubt very much that Hitler would have agreed to a cessation of hostilities If Stalin had offered conditional surrender once those 3 cities were under German control
Manstein63

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 9:08:31 PM   
Pelton

 

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Again if Gids pushs Tarhunnas army will break in less then 6 turns and Gids will easly be able to advance 4 to 6 hexes along hole front and Tarhunnas will not be able to do much to stop him. Doing the math there are 120ish turns left and about 120 hexes to Berlin. So Gids can easly get to Berlin before end of game.

Land means next to nothing once the German army breaks.

And as per the math 12 mill deaths is more then historical at Jan 44, Tarhunnas did far more then historical in destorying production and far more then historical in citys captured then are the facts. You can't make up some fairytale the explain them FACTS away.

The facts are even if the German does Far better then historical he probably get a draw if hes lucky, because the Russian side is not punished for anything.

In your game vs Katza you can easly break him in 30 turns if you choose to start attacking all along the front and you be in Berlin long before end of game.

I just stick with the facts that Tarhunnas did far better then historical and will probably lose or get a draw if hes lucky.

Of course you think this is great.

Pelton




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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 9:16:29 PM   
Stoat


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Possibly this book might provide some analysis of the relative capabilities of the Deutsche Reichsbahn vs. the Soviet rail system:
http://www.amazon.com/Most-Valuable-Asset-Reich-1933-1945/dp/0807825743/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1318623082&sr=8-2

In game terms, analysis of this or other resources might provide the basis of an argument for a change in the relative value of Axis to Soviet rail capacity.

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 11:29:45 PM   
Kamil

 

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From my experience breaking German army is not as easy as it seems. +1 Rule is gone, so Soviets are now vulnerable to counter-attacks, so employing non-linear defence is much easier and much more efficient.

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/14/2011 11:40:00 PM   
RedBunny

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stoat

Possibly this book might provide some analysis of the relative capabilities of the Deutsche Reichsbahn vs. the Soviet rail system:
http://www.amazon.com/Most-Valuable-Asset-Reich-1933-1945/dp/0807825743/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1318623082&sr=8-2

In game terms, analysis of this or other resources might provide the basis of an argument for a change in the relative value of Axis to Soviet rail capacity.


I've got it and read it 4-5 years ago; I don't recall it saying anything about the Soviet rail capacity.

I did enjoy it though. I browsed through volume 1 and it didn't look that interesting though.

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/15/2011 12:42:13 AM   
Stoat


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Cool, thanks for the book feedback! This feldgrau.com article is a not-too-long, accessible read with interesting commentary on the DR but and also has a few things to say directly comparing it to the Soviet rail network:

http://www.feldgrau.com/dreichsbahn.html

What it does say about the Soviet rail network:

1) the primitiveness of the Soviet interior
2) Only three important industrial or urban centers contained a dense network of rail lines; the Donets industrial region, Leningrad and Moscow. Moscow was in fact a key hub; cut off Moscow and the entire Soviet rail network would be seriously crippled
3) Signals and rail safety efforts were primitive when compared to German or western European standards
4) Only the Kharkhov to Moscow double track line was placed onto a proper bed. The rest of the soviet rail network was placed onto sandy beds, or the ties were simply tapped lightly into the existing ground. The lower the engineering standard of the railway bed, the lower the amount of weight which could traverse same
5) Many of the existing railroad bridges of European Russia were in fact temporary structures... of no value for the heavier trains
6) Soviet coal was not of optimal quality (sic) locomotives even by Soviet standards
7) only 20% of all of Germany's "winterized" locomotives were operationally available in late 1941... Conversely, Soviet (and ex-Imperial Russian) locomotives seemed to be in their natural element during the winter months
8) The best year for the German rail system was during the summer of 1943... despite an increase in Soviet partisan activities in central Russia, German train schedules were affected very little... attributed to the extensive network the Germans had built up in Russia
9) Since taking the advice of an American railway engineer in the mid 1800's, the rail gauge of Czarist Russia and ... the Soviet Union, has been in the wide gauge. The theory being that an attacker would encounter more operational and supply problems if he were forced to convert a wider gauge rail line to "his" gauge (back in the mid 1800's, it was assumed that Germany was going to be the aggressor)
10) The 1938 Soviet five-year plan called for the Soviet rail line system to be expanded to approximately 62.000 miles (100.000km). For the most part, the Soviets were able meet their construction goals
11) As of 01 January 1943, 22.000 miles (35.000km) of the Soviet rail network were under German control
12) Although the Germans were able to "capture" large quantities of Soviet rolling stock and railway construction materials, the captured items were for the most part substandard in quality or antiquated
13) poor Soviet construction standards... Soviet rails were almost always sitting only on a bed of sand covered occasionally with rocks... the vast majority of the Soviet rail ties were made of untreated pine... their weight capacity fell way below German railway norms (38kg/m for Soviet lines vs. 49kg/m in Germany)
14) Soviet rail ties were also placed further apart than American and German norms... This too added to a lower overall transportation capacity of the Soviet rail line
15) Because of the Soviet rail line construction technique, Soviet cargo and weight capacities were often reduced way below the official allowances
16) larger Soviet trains could cover larger distances before they needed to re-water and re-coal. German trains, required more frequent servicing
17) Soviet Union, railway personnel ... (were) skilled and dedicated... they also knew how to mess things up for the Germans. However, once the Germans occupied a region, many "Soviet" railway experts stepped forward and willingly helped the German cause (stoat note: ahh Hee Wees, is there anything they can't do?)

--

I have to say, after reading this article, I'm starting to wonder whether the in-game Soviet rail cap shouldn't be about 1/5th the united Axis rail cap rather than about 5x as it is! Given the numerous deficiencies and shortcomings of the Soviet rail network, it's amazing they were able to pick up their heavy industry, lock stock & barrel, as easily as GGWitE shows they were able to do!

Of course these limitations do not seem to have affected their ability to transport lighter loads, e.g. to smartly deploy rifle divisions fresh off the unceasing Bolshevik conveyor belt from Central Asia, and it must be acknowledge that their purported ability to offer reliable service throughout the winter (when the Germans could not) was a great advantage.

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/15/2011 12:51:07 AM   
Stoat


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From the maps, looks like Pelton is clearly playing for breakthroughs in the South. This makes sense, go for it!

Sorry for taking the thread off-topic on the rail issue! Good luck!

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/15/2011 1:00:57 AM   
Pelton

 

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Nice info Stoat, but it is hard to breakthrough the Red wall with info.

Not sure many poeple are interested in anything historical.


Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 10/15/2011 1:58:10 AM >

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/15/2011 1:33:40 AM   
randallw

 

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The manpower multiplier for the Soviet side in the later years has been decreased....but of course a lot of campaigns haven't reached that far so people just assume the Russians will never ever ever run short of manpower for any part of the war.

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/16/2011 3:25:57 AM   
Pelton

 

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http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2928246


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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/17/2011 1:59:23 AM   
Kamil

 

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T52 (june '42), 2 turns before beginign of Summer.


Since end of February nothing happened. Both sides are in much better shape than 3 months ago, but thanks to arrival of inf corps strength of my defences increased more than Pelton's offensive potential. (I hope so)

Below most interesting part of the front, plus my new and shiny CV record holder.




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< Message edited by Kamil -- 10/17/2011 2:01:09 AM >

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/17/2011 2:01:15 AM   
Kamil

 

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T52 oob




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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 10/17/2011 5:40:46 AM   
randallw

 

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Maybe the next patch should force Russian units into static mode, so 30 or 40 divisions can be surrounded in big chunks. Only unrealistic fanboys would be against this.

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