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RE: Pelton vs Kamil

 
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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/13/2012 1:53:26 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		2




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 331
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/13/2012 5:26:36 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 552
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I agree with Pelton that the built in mechanics of the Soviets getting better and the Axis getting worse regardless of whats actually happening in the game really dont make sense.


In some ways yes, but in others no. There are factors that affect the game but happen outside the influence of the players.

The Russians get lend-lease: "Hey alright, we got a big shipment of trucks and radios today!". That makes soldiers happy and allows them to fight more effectively.

The Axis suffer defeats in the west: "Crap, we just lost 250,000 troops in Tunisia. Those were good guys. How are we gonna replace them!?". Such defeats were a drain on Axis manpower and resources that helped the downward trend of German quality.

There is nothing the players can do about the above, so it is out of their control. But other factors ARE in their control and if, for example, the Germans can keep their army intact better than historical, then they will be able to limit the outside influence 'hardcoding'.

< Message edited by Schmart -- 1/13/2012 6:00:56 PM >

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 332
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/13/2012 5:34:59 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 552
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
The German army was at it pinnacle in 1943 not 1941 hehehe what are you smoking?

In 1941 the German army had some of the worst equipment in the world. The French,English and Russians had better Artillary, tanks, AC ect ect ect. The training of new replasements never changed until late 43.


The only thing being smoked, is reality. Morale-wise, the Germans were most assuredly at their pinnacle in 1941. It was downhill from there. Slowly at first, but as defeats added up, it accelerated. The influx of HIWIs and Ost Battalions and additional watering down of manpower began before late 1943.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 333
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/13/2012 6:00:42 PM   
Schmart

 

Posts: 552
Joined: 9/13/2010
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Bombing never lowers morale. That is a constant fact of ww2. England never surrendered because of it, Leningrad never surrendered because of it, Germany never surrendered becuse of it. It also Had no effect on the output of any country's production.

Sure it made a nice bonfire, but its effects were simply over rated as everyone knows now.

The main effects of planes during WW2 were tactical, which is why Germans were so effective vs enemys with better equipement and larger army's.

Again were know from personall accounts of what German morale was, your option is counter to fact, silly little man.


Having many German relatives that survived (by luck) some of those 'nice bonfires', I think I can speak to the effects of bombing on morale. It sure doesn't help when you wake up in the morning wondering if there is going to be yet another raid today. If there wasn't a raid during the day, you can then start to wonder if there is going to be another raid tonight. And while you're hunkering in the basement/bombshelter, you get to wonder if today is the day that lucky bomb makes it's way through and blows you up. Then your thoughts turn to friends and family on the other side of town. You heard that the bombing was pretty heavy in that part of the city tonight. Will they be alive tomorrow? Yes, it does wear away at your morale. You can put on a brave face, maybe even smile from time to time, but deep down you know it's bad.

I'd suggest the realities of the bombings on Britain vs. Germany were under different circumstances. Firstly, the British just had to make it through to October 1940 and weather would then make invasion impossible. At that point, it was just a matter of time until sufficient help could arrive from across the Atlantic. Times were tough, but there was hope. The Germans didn't have any hope. No hope for a sleeping giant to come to their aid. Most Germans realized on the 22nd of June, 1941 (and if not then, on December 7th, 1941 for sure), that the war would be lost. A two front war could not be won. Deep down, every German knew that even if they didn't want to believe it. It was simply a matter of time and how (not when) the end would come.

Allied bombing was over-rated when it came to it's effects on production, but to say it had NO effect on production is a lie. It was certainly not over-rated when it came to the effect on morale and the bleeding dry of the Luftwaffe.

< Message edited by Schmart -- 1/13/2012 6:08:16 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 334
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/13/2012 8:52:36 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Of course bombing it made life a misery for those suffering it, and of course it hd a negative impact on production. However, it did not break in any case break national morale, except maybe in the case of the Dutch after Rotterdam. In general, those early bombings seems to have made much more of an impression, like Guernica or Coventry, even though the losses were trifling compared to Hamburg, Dresden or Tokyo.

(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 335
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/13/2012 9:00:43 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Schmart

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ketza

I agree with Pelton that the built in mechanics of the Soviets getting better and the Axis getting worse regardless of whats actually happening in the game really dont make sense.


In some ways yes, but in others no. There are factors that affect the game but happen outside the influence of the players.

The Russians get lend-lease: "Hey alright, we got a big shipment of trucks and radios today!". That makes soldiers happy and allows them to fight more effectively.

The Axis suffer defeats in the west: "Crap, we just lost 250,000 troops in Tunisia. Those were good guys. How are we gonna replace them!?". Such defeats were a drain on Axis manpower and resources that helped the downward trend of German quality.

There is nothing the players can do about the above, so it is out of their control. But other factors ARE in their control and if, for example, the Germans can keep their army intact better than historical, then they will be able to limit the outside influence 'hardcoding'.


Your arguement just supports what Katza stated as this same arguement always does.

If the Germans took Moscow (and other eastern city's)in 1941 or 1942, the poeple and troops would "wow I think mybee we can win this 2 front war, I guess Hitler was right again". Pre war land grabs, Poland, Norway,Phoney war and France getting crushed in a month ect.

Again poeple keep wanting to have their cake and eat it to.

I totally understand your and others arguement, but you can't ignore the most important front of the WW2 when it comes to morale.

You can't simply fix morale based on a time line of other factors and ignore the Eastern Front.

Morale should be based on a time line of the other fronts PLUS the results in game on the most important front of the war.

To ignore the Eastern Front is just silly. But is what 2 by 3 is doing by design.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/13/2012 9:01:34 PM >

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Schmart)
Post #: 336
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/13/2012 9:08:54 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Of course bombing it made life a misery for those suffering it, and of course it hd a negative impact on production. However, it did not break in any case break national morale, except maybe in the case of the Dutch after Rotterdam. In general, those early bombings seems to have made much more of an impression, like Guernica or Coventry, even though the losses were trifling compared to Hamburg, Dresden or Tokyo.


Also bombing by Western allies was stopped totaly for several months in 1943 because they were getting slaughtered by the LW. So it had very little effect until early 44.

Also the German army was at it height until early 43. The loses in Africe and Stalingrad of 500,000 men started the decline.

The main effect of the bombing was to remove fighters from the front.

Pelton



_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 337
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/14/2012 2:05:47 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Turn 141

Trend 140 to 150
——SHC—-Attacks———–Wins—-Losses
Total————46—————–40———6—
This Turn——46—————–40———6—


AGN: Starts a general with drawal, Finland is on is own. 6 divisions were railed to AGS as the front is starting to crumble.

AGC will hold the line until AGN is safe.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 338
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/14/2012 2:13:38 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGS: The front starts to buckle a 100 miles south of Kiev and 3 divisions are hopelessly cut off. The center of AGS starts with drawing as the north and south try to hold on for a few more turns.

6 divisions from AGN arrive and start to man a defensive line. Hopefully over the next few turns another dozen fresh division will arrive to help. AGN has basicly been on vacation for the last 2 yrs.

12 regiments with another dozen LW units are on the way to start digging the summer lines. As soon as all FZ are pulled next turn more defences will be pull in place.

Plans are being draw up to form another defensive line closer to Berlin. The reformed pocketed units will used to start digging that line.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 339
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/14/2012 2:21:14 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Basicly the same thing happened last Blizzard. It takes Kamil about 12 turns to get past the fort belt during the blizzard. During the summer I can dig faster then he can attack, but I am thinking that hes powerfull enough this summer to push past the forts faster then I can dig even in summer. Ohh how I miss my Italian diggers heheh

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 340
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/14/2012 8:33:40 AM   
Speedy

 

Posts: 14086
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Of course bombing it made life a misery for those suffering it, and of course it hd a negative impact on production. However, it did not break in any case break national morale, except maybe in the case of the Dutch after Rotterdam. In general, those early bombings seems to have made much more of an impression, like Guernica or Coventry, even though the losses were trifling compared to Hamburg, Dresden or Tokyo.


Also bombing by Western allies was stopped totaly for several months in 1943 because they were getting slaughtered by the LW. So it had very little effect until early 44.

Also the German army was at it height until early 43. The loses in Africe and Stalingrad of 500,000 men started the decline.

The main effect of the bombing was to remove fighters from the front.

Pelton




As Tarhunnas says it did have some impact on production. It would be illogical to say different, for example, if a factory is knocked offline for even a week let alone a month or 2 then that's 1 factories lost production for that amount of time. Germans pretty quickly (relatively) got a lot of their factories back online. The disparity between which facs got online quicker versus others is also influenced by the industry type, the building construction, the amount of intricate parts etc etc.

Despite all of the 'silver bullets' the Strat Bombers went after the ones that had the dramatic effect and should have been hit (if possible) earlier were Oil and the Rail network. Most things had to be moved by rail so no trains means little movement of resources to facs and little movement of finished product to where it needs to be.

The 8th/BC didn't stop raids after Schweinfurt/Regensburg. For example 1 and 3BD against Stuttgart on 6th September 1943, Emden 27th September, Frankfurt/Wiesbaden on 4th October, Bremen 8th October etc etc.

Even after 2nd Schweinfurt on 14th October: Gelsenkirchen/Munster on 5th November, Munster on 11th November, Bremen 13th November, Kiel/Hamburg on 13th December.

As you can see they didn't stop for months. They just didn't go for deep deep raids until they had the escort in 44.

Other than the industry effects (mentioned above) the other effects were the disintegration of the LW fighter arm (as Pelton mentioned) and not to be under-estimated the massive amount of men and material shifted to AA defence (1 million men and 1000's of 88's for example) that could have been used on the frontline.

_____________________________

WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 341
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/16/2012 2:38:16 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Finland surrenders.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 342
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/16/2012 2:39:54 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGN withdraws another 4 hexes. The lines peel back as the north wing pulls out. Several more divisions are railed to the Lvov area.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 343
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/16/2012 2:41:22 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGC holds the line at the critical land bridge area until AGN is fuller withdraw.

So far all operations are going as planned.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 344
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/16/2012 2:50:53 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGS with draws another hex or 2 as needed. Mud will hit in 3 turns, then mud and clear every other turn for a month.

Several fort belts are under constuction, with more diggers on the way.

I am saving up 200 ap so I can put 50 to 60 units in static mode to keep OOB even or growing slowly.

This with drawal will also pull Kamil from his rail heads for a while. This should give my forses time to refit and get the front line to atleast 3 deep in level 2 forts. Plus another line will be finished a little to the west.

The final front will be under construction by the 6 divisions that got pocketed. 20 hexes east of Berlin.

So far things are going as planned as I was hoping for back when I started digging in June 1942.

I think the key to a draw will by if I can hold the lines in a fort belt from here on out. I only have one more possible line to fall back on after this one. I am hoping I do not have to fall, back but can fight for every inch of ground from here on out.

Pelton






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 345
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/27/2012 12:12:50 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		February 1944 to April 1944
75 turns left in game.
Turn 140 - 150 Trends
88 armaments captured.
185,000 armaments in pool.
AP Trend: -185,000
German OOB: 3,465,000
Trend in OOB: -20,000
AVG Per turn: -2,000
——SHC—-Attacks———–Wins—-Losses
Total————115—————–100———15—
This Turn——15—————–10———5—
GHC—-Counter Attacks———Wins—-Losses—–-
——————1-———————1———0——–—-
This turn——0————————0————————
Losses from turn 140 - 150
————————-Men————Guns———-Tanks——Planes
GHC—————–240,000————11,000———1,000———500
SHC-—————600,000—————9,000——–-6,600-——4,200
Ratio—————2.6 to 1————1 to 1———6.6 to 1— 8 to 1

OOB difference from turn 140 - 150 .

GHC————–/-20,000——–/-200——–-/-1900———–/-1300
SHC-————–0000000———/-3000———/-3000———–-/-2000


Fighting slowed down by mud. I trade some space to dig in for summer.

AGN I with draws and I move troops to areas in need. I still have some space to trade. This should leave Russian forses in the March to Baltic far from railheads so allot of units can help in south.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 346
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/27/2012 12:15:36 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		AGS

Tring to hold the line as best as possible south of Marsh. Several corp have arrived with 3 more on way to help sure up lines as best as possible.

Extra units are put to work digging lines in Mts.






Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 347
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/2/2012 12:09:49 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Kamil built his army the right way. Of course me turtling in March of 42 kinda helped to heheh. I had no choose as game was a per 1.05 and he had a huge army by summer and high levels forts. Thankfully 1.05 ended all the WW I games on the eastern front and to win German players dont have to HQ build-up chain to win any more.

I think he drove over 2 lines of level 2 forts with units in each fort and line.

Dam I hope Hilter got them super weapons almost done

Kamil like Hoooper is a good russian player. Digging forts is about usless by 44 in this game heheh .




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
15 - 3 - 7

10 games ended in 41 (10-0-0)
4 games ended in 42 (4-0-2)
3 games ended in 43 (1-2-3)
1 game ended in 44 (0-1-2)

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 348
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/5/2012 7:55:32 PM   
Kamil

 

Posts: 1515
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		T158 north (22 Jun '44)

Pelton got temporary ban, so I will post some stuff.



I have built few new HQs, but so far I don't see much impact of having most armies overloaded.

I almost finished disbanding tanks regiments - I built too many of them and depleted pool to such extend, that my mobile units suffer shortage of AFVs.


I am incapable of achieving anything north of Prypet swamps - my advance is more consequence of Pelton's withdrawal forced by developments in Ukraine. Even after removing several units he is still too strong for anything but grind.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kamil -- 2/5/2012 7:58:15 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 349
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/5/2012 7:59:39 PM   
Kamil

 

Posts: 1515
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		T158 south


Since begining of my offensive in '43 Ukraine was centre of my attention. Practicaly all reinforcements were send there, plus all units are battle hardened veterans.


I push, push and wait for opening.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 350
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/5/2012 8:03:53 PM   
Kamil

 

Posts: 1515
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		T158 blob


Here is "blob of doom".

I kept pushing forward as fast as I could, so any frontal organisation was lost few turns ago.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 351
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/5/2012 8:06:00 PM   
Kamil

 

Posts: 1515
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		T158 OOB



German forces keep evaporating at increasing speed.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kamil -- 2/5/2012 8:45:39 PM >

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 352
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/5/2012 9:24:29 PM   
Encircled


Posts: 619
Joined: 12/30/2010
From: Northern England
Status: offline 		Big fan of the term "Blob of Doom"

Keep on pushing!

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 353
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/7/2012 2:35:02 AM   
Kamil

 

Posts: 1515
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		T159 north


Since I could not encircle anything I settled for pushing forwards.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kamil -- 2/7/2012 2:36:10 AM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 354
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/7/2012 2:37:19 AM   
Kamil

 

Posts: 1515
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		T159 south


I crossed river Bug and it pleases me greatly.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 355
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/7/2012 4:04:23 AM   
krupp_88mm


Posts: 402
Joined: 10/13/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

T159 south


I crossed river Bug and it pleases me greatly.



kamil, what is best in life?

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!

< Message edited by krupp_88mm -- 2/7/2012 4:05:48 AM >

_____________________________

Decisive Campaigns Case Pony


RRRH-Sr Mod Graphix ed V2: http://www.mediafire.com/?dt2wf7fc273zq5k

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 356
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/7/2012 8:31:15 AM   
vlcz


Posts: 387
Joined: 8/24/2009
From: Spain
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: krupp_88mm


kamil, what is best in life?

To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentation of the women!


Yeah and rape their horses and ride away on women backs

(in reply to krupp_88mm)
Post #: 357
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/8/2012 3:31:44 AM   
Kamil

 

Posts: 1515
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		T160 overview


My plan was to push past Brest Lit., but grim reality forced me to settle for lesser prey - at least my rear formation will have opportunity to prove themselves.






Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kamil -- 2/8/2012 3:33:57 AM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 358
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/9/2012 5:00:32 PM   
Kamil

 

Posts: 1515
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		T161 west


In northern sector peaceful advance of North and Northwest fronts continues. To be honest they are so anaemic it is only way they can move forward.


In the centre it was second consecutive turn when I planned and failed to push past Pelton's main line of defence. Some of his panzers are still match for even strongest corps.

Due to my opponents withdrawal tactics I was forced to focus on hex conversion and bringing my infantry forward.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kamil -- 2/9/2012 5:03:02 PM >

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 359
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 2/9/2012 5:03:41 PM   
Kamil

 

Posts: 1515
Joined: 2/5/2011
Status: offline 		T161 south


Pelton has abandoned Romanians, so I guess it is matter of few weeks before they surrender.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Kamil -- 2/9/2012 5:04:59 PM >

(in reply to Kamil)
Post #: 360
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