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RE: Pelton vs Kamil

 
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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 4:02:09 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

National morale also reflects the morale of the replacements. The German army in the summer of '41 was at its pinnacle in proficiency, etc. Historically it went downhill, while the Red Army, recovering experience lost to the purges, and united in patriotism against the barbarity of Nazi aggression and occupation, improved from its sorry state in '41.


Again this is your peronal strawman and nothing more. The German army was at it pinnacle in 1943 not 1941 hehehe what are you smoking?

In 1941 the German army had some of the worst equipment in the world. The French,English and Russians had better Artillary, tanks, AC ect ect ect. The training of new replasements never changed until late 43.

The only thing the Germans had going for them was C&C. They were logistical masterminds. They could get the right troops and planes to the right location faster then anyone in the world.

They won battle after battle form 1939 to 1942 fighting enemys that had better and more equipment and more men.

In 1943 they findly had good equipment and highly trained men.

Another Red fanboy that is still beleiving all the Stalin myth's.

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 301
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 4:04:11 AM   
Pelton

 

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Turn 134 91 turns left
Trend in OOB: -147,000
AVG Per turn: -29,000
——SHC—-Attacks———Wins—-Losses
Total———-127—————76———53—
This Turn——34—————_24———12
GHC—-Counter Attacks———Wins—-Losses—–-
——————10-———————10———0——–—-
This turn——7————————7————————

I counter attack around land bridge and move 4 more mech units into the area.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 302
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 4:04:51 AM   
Pelton

 

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1




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 303
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 4:05:21 AM   
Pelton

 

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2




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 304
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 4:05:53 AM   
Pelton

 

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AGC




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 305
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 4:06:24 AM   
Pelton

 

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AGS




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 306
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 4:20:03 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

1 sapper regiment per corps (any type) is my standard and ought to be enough to get good engineering bonuses. But on top of that your armies should have some sapper SUs, too. 1-2 per army. (And 1 tank regiment and 3-4 artillery SUs. That's a nice mix.)

Most Soviet players imo seriously underestimate the power of artillery divisions and don't build enough of them. (And wait too long to build them, considering they become available as of Oct of 42.) Artillery is the God of War, my friends. It is to the Red Army what the panzer divisions are to the Germans.

I try to follow the historical OB here: roughly two dozen tube artillery divisions, and 6 rocket. If armament points and APs allow, I'd consider building even more than that.




I think under the current rule set doing what Kamil is doing works better, corps is far better then artillary.

He can attack in more locations grinding down the German army faster. With 10 million men, 3 million in bank and getting 150,000 men per turn there is no way his OOB will drop. So just going by the math its a much faster way to grind.

The loses per battle are so low that he can attack 30 times a turn an his OOB doent drop even at a 60% win lose ratio. The more infantry corps the faster he can grind.

He has a never ending supply of men because the loses are so low per battle.

The first held battle he attacks with a blob of 97000 men and loses 3% of his men I lost 4% of my men WINNING?

So even when I win I lost a higher % of men. This gain is not a reflextion of history. The lose ratio should be closer to a 4% loss for me and a 12% lose for him.

Under the current game engine the russians win by losing, if the odds are close.

Thats just a very unhistorical and silly lose ratio.

The best way to win is just get big blobs of men,guns and tanks are ok. But if you just want to win as fast as you can then build infantry corps.

Pelton



< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/5/2012 4:21:35 AM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 307
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 5:37:04 AM   
Flaviusx


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He can only stack 3 corps per hex. Artillery is a force multiplier that will allow him to bust forts and get around the stacking limitations. This isn't an either/or proposition, it's both. Instead of making attacks with 200k men and 3k guns, he could be making attacks with 200k men and 5k+ guns. The extra firepower makes a difference. Every 3 artillery divisions is an extra 1k guns (more with rocket artillery.)

I note that tube artillery divisions have lots and lots of mortars -- with all that implies in terms of ROF.

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Post #: 308
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 5:46:42 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

He can only stack 3 corps per hex. Artillery is a force multiplier that will allow him to bust forts and get around the stacking limitations. This isn't an either/or proposition, it's both. Instead of making attacks with 200k men and 3k guns, he could be making attacks with 200k men and 5k+ guns. The extra firepower makes a difference. Every 3 artillery divisions is an extra 1k guns (more with rocket artillery.)

I note that tube artillery divisions have lots and lots of mortars -- with all that implies in terms of ROF.



Thats true, but I think he built his army the way it is based on a possible lack of armament pts.

You can win with or with out the guns.

The ratio's they installed to off set 1v1=2v1 seem to have back fired.

Pelton

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 309
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 8:04:55 AM   
Seminole


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quote:

Again this is your peronal strawman and nothing more.


You keep using that word, strawman, but it does not mean what you think it means.
I notice you completely ignored the reasons I presented to you for falling German morale and ้lan.

quote:

The German army was at it pinnacle in 1943 not 1941 hehehe what are you smoking?


That smoke you see is German cities under increasing allied bombardment. The smell is tens of thousands consumed in deliberate firestorms from '43 onward. None of which were particularly good for morale or ้lan.
Yes, German equipment improved, as did Allied, and I wouldn't argue that in '43 Germany had its best equipment relative to what the Allies fielded, but this is non-germane to the questions of overall morale and battlefield proficiency.
Do you really think there wasn't a steady degradation consequent to the losses Germany began suffering in '42? Do you think a switch was suddenly flipped in '45 from nazi superman to surrendering hordes?

quote:

They won battle after battle form 1939 to 1942


How many of those same men were convalescing in Germany, laying dead on the Russian steppe, marching to Siberia from Stalingrad, or enjoying Allied POW camps after losing in Africa, Sicily, and Italy by 1943? '44? '45?
Do you think the boys that replaced them were truly as proficient?

quote:

Another Red fanboy that is still beleiving all the Stalin myth's.


That, my friend, is a strawman.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 310
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 11:29:55 AM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Seminole

quote:

Again this is your peronal strawman and nothing more.


You keep using that word, strawman, but it does not mean what you think it means.
I notice you completely ignored the reasons I presented to you for falling German morale and ้lan.

quote:

The German army was at it pinnacle in 1943 not 1941 hehehe what are you smoking?


That smoke you see is German cities under increasing allied bombardment. The smell is tens of thousands consumed in deliberate firestorms from '43 onward. None of which were particularly good for morale or ้lan.
Yes, German equipment improved, as did Allied, and I wouldn't argue that in '43 Germany had its best equipment relative to what the Allies fielded, but this is non-germane to the questions of overall morale and battlefield proficiency.
Do you really think there wasn't a steady degradation consequent to the losses Germany began suffering in '42? Do you think a switch was suddenly flipped in '45 from nazi superman to surrendering hordes?

quote:

They won battle after battle form 1939 to 1942


How many of those same men were convalescing in Germany, laying dead on the Russian steppe, marching to Siberia from Stalingrad, or enjoying Allied POW camps after losing in Africa, Sicily, and Italy by 1943? '44? '45?
Do you think the boys that replaced them were truly as proficient?

quote:

Another Red fanboy that is still beleiving all the Stalin myth's.


That, my friend, is a strawman.


I go by facts unlike yourself.

The combat ratio on all fronts stayed constant until late 44.

Bombing never lowers morale. That is a constant fact of ww2. England never surrendered because of it, Leningrad never surrendered because of it, Germany never surrendered becuse of it. It also Had no effect on the output of any country's production.

Sure it made a nice bonfire, but its effects were simply over rated as everyone knows now.

The main effects of planes during WW2 were tactical, which is why Germans were so effective vs enemys with better equipement and larger army's.

Again were know from personall accounts of what German morale was, your option is counter to fact, silly little man.

Pelton


Pelton


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Seminole)
Post #: 311
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 12:04:32 PM   
Fishbed


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quote:

Sure it made a nice bonfire, but its effects were simply over rated as everyone knows now.

quote:

Again were know from personall accounts of what German morale was, your option is counter to fact, silly little man.


Pelton, my pleasure of watching you playing on so many topics is constantly ruined by your obvious need to sound so offensive & look so contemptuous either toward the devs or here your fellow players. I really wonder how someone who believes the game to be so broken can actually still have interest into playing it as much as you do (cf. your signature). Is that because you believe it's the only way you may sound legitimate to bash it, or is it because beyond your anger and all the filth, you actually ENJOY the silly wargame it is?

And by the way, apart from my very curiosity about seeing how your "morale" endures a violent bombing firestorm someday, you may also take as a factor in your "facts" the very thing that made fire bombing in Germany and everything else somehow a little different from the Blitz or Leningrad, as these are the very examples you picked up: enduring a firestorm as the victim on the brink of losing everything, and enduring a firestorm as the aggressor witnessing the tide turning don't exactly have the same impact on the minds.
Btw, you sound like someone who has had a lot of contacts and experience with former Hamburg, Koln or Dresden inhabitants, maybe they'll be able to clarify better with you what you believe to be a "nice bonfire", you unbelievable unseen senseless piece of crap. You know, back in those days Adolf Galland would say the night looked like the day. When they tell you how they couldn't tell which carbonized kid under the rubble was whose or when Feldgrau Fritz reads about his family vanishing overnight while he's in garrison somewhere in France, yes, sure, morale +1, all the way man. And thanks the glorious Leader!

It's not because people don't care that they try to pretend that things shall go back to normal, and get back to their lives, or work harder at the factory and please Mr.Speer (what is even easier when you've lost everybody in a "nice bonfire" and Gunther is fighting somewhere in Belorussia, hey!). It's because trying to pretend everything is alright is the only thing that is keeping them from turning insane.

What you call higher morale, is more exactly desperation. And if Leningrad or London inhabitants had hope to somehow cure them from this trait - from late 1943 onwards, what exactly was the Germans' one? So, well, sorry, yeah. Except if you're some SS freak, I do not believe you could actually describe Germany's morale, especially on the frontline, to be noticeably rising from the previous years levels, strangely enough... If desperation for the reds shall count as low morale in 1941, than the opposite is applicable true.


< Message edited by Fishbed -- 1/5/2012 12:32:02 PM >


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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 12:40:29 PM   
glvaca

 

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I think a point often overlooked is that the Germans got their best exchange rates while conducting mobile operations. The so called elastic defence.
The Germans recognized they could not win the war of attrition as being played out in this game.
IT would be interesting to see whether a serious retreat, followed by a pincer attack could achieve success.

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 313
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 2:28:32 PM   
Kamil

 

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General remarks about my strategy:

Current shape of Soviet forces isn't consequence of careful planing, but effect of day-to-day necessities of grind at all cost doctrine. It started during winter of 42/43 when Inf Corps still cost 20 AP, and to be able to advance at all I needed to spawn them in areas where Pelton has weak defences. As soon as they got strengthened I focused my activities on different location. To maintain high level of "conversion" while still being able to build at least 2 divisions each turn I put practically all my mobile forces in static mode.

It was effective policy during winter, but I paid price for overspending during next summer - recreation of armoured forces was painful (mech corps activation was around 65 AP!). Even more time required adjustments in C&C.

At the moment I do not have to be too careful with choosing area where I conduct my offensive - Inf Corps are beasts now, their CV is in mid-teens, some are even over 20. Thanks to good C&C my best fronts can even risk attacking stacks with defensive value of 70 to 80 CV from 2 hexes only.


Now biggest issue are high AFV losses - 500 to 600 a turn. It is not sustainable and there is not much left in pool (under 1k now), so I need to lower number of tank regiments in Inf Corps from 2 to 1.

< Message edited by Kamil -- 1/5/2012 2:46:42 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 2:28:46 PM   
paullus99


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In the end, the Germans found ways to lose more efficiently than their opponents - sure they inflicted an average of 2.5 losses to every 1 loss on their side, but they still lost. Between the bombings (which, had they been targeted better - say an all out attack on the German Power Grid, would have put a serious, if not fatal crimp in German war production), fighting on several fronts at once, and a complete mis-management of the overall war strategy, I'd say the average German soldier was a bit fatalistic by 1943 - especially given that postings to the Eastern Front were considered death sentences among the rank and file - and that is a historical fact.

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Post #: 315
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 3:04:10 PM   
cavalry

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I think a point often overlooked is that the Germans got their best exchange rates while conducting mobile operations. The so called elastic defence.
The Germans recognized they could not win the war of attrition as being played out in this game.
IT would be interesting to see whether a serious retreat, followed by a pincer attack could achieve success.



Spot on!

Sounds good but in this game by 44 I will be interested to see it happen.

(in reply to glvaca)
Post #: 316
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 3:16:17 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6299
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From: Southern California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamil

General remarks about my strategy:

Current shape of Soviet forces isn't consequence of careful planing, but effect of day-to-day necessities of grind at all cost doctrine. It started during winter of 42/43 when Inf Corps still cost 20 AP, and to be able to advance at all I needed to spawn them in areas where Pelton has weak defences. As soon as they got strengthened I focused my activities on different location. To maintain high level of "conversion" while still being able to build at least 2 divisions each turn I put practically all my mobile forces in static mode.

It was effective policy during winter, but I paid price for overspending during next summer - recreation of armoured forces was painful (mech corps activation was around 65 AP!). Even more time required adjustments in C&C.

At the moment I do not have to be too careful with choosing area where I conduct my offensive - Inf Corps are beasts now, their CV is in mid-teens, some are even over 20. Thanks to good C&C my best fronts can even risk attacking stacks with defensive value of 70 to 80 CV from 2 hexes only.


Now biggest issue are high AFV losses - 500 to 600 a turn. It is not sustainable and there is not much left in pool (under 1k now), so I need to lower number of tank regiments in Inf Corps from 2 to 1.


Heh, 500-600 AFV losses a turn is nothing. I've lost as much as 1k+ a turn for several turns going in 1943.

But it definitely is not sustainable. A few turns like that and you've got to rest up the tank and mechanized corps.

2 tank regiments per infantry corps is rather too much. My standard package for rifle corps doesn't use AFVs at all, in fact (I roll with 1 AT, 1 AA, 1 sapper), it diverts too many medium tanks and trucks away from mobile corps. I can see a case for using heavy tank regiments in rifle corps later on, in limited numbers. I do like having tank SUs at the army level, 1 per, and find that more economical than just sticking them in all rifle corps.

But you really should try to build up a good artillery park. Rifle corps backed by lots of artillery divisions are far more formidable than just rifle corps alone.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 1/5/2012 3:17:12 PM >


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Post #: 317
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 3:41:30 PM   
Kamil

 

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quote:

Flaviusx


But you really should try to build up a good artillery park. Rifle corps backed by lots of artillery divisions are far more formidable than just rifle corps alone.



It will be task for spring of '44, when I will get extra space in armies and fronts and Inf Corps building and reorganisation will be finished. I will act according to Your advices and build extra 20-30.

When I will enter Poland front will be very congested so I assume artillery will be crucial.

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 318
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 5:52:30 PM   
Q-Ball


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You have to build Artillery Divisions now, though, if you want to use them in 1944. It takes almost 6 months to attain a decent level of training to where they hit anything.

RE: The Wehrmacht, I don't think there is any doubt that the Wehrmacht's strength was it's institutional memory, specifically the quality of it's officer corps up through the staff level. They ran circles around everyone else depite sub-par equipment in the early war, because they were far ahead in this area.

But as the war continued, overall proficiency in the Wehrmacht dropped, because of attrition to the officer cadres, plus the expansion of the Wehrmacht and subsequent dilution of quality. Quality was concentrated in a few formations like the SS and some Panzers; these formations maintained very high proficiency to the end of the war. The Infantry, though, was on a slow decline throughout the war, as the officer corps died-off, and the Wehrmacht scraped the bottom of the manpower barrell.

"Morale" is so misleading, it's really "Military Proficiency". And in this area, the Werhmacht experienced a slow, but steady decline after 1941.

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Post #: 319
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 6:53:37 PM   
Flaviusx


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Nah, nothing like 6 months.

See here's the neat thing about artillery divisions: properly used, they won't be much exposed to losses. They just bombard at range. Their elements aren't going to suffer much. You don't really need to wait for them to get amazing levels of training or morale. They can benefit from the school of hard knocks in a way other units can't. So throw them into fights almost as soon as they fill up their TOE. A low morale/exp rifle divisions or tank corps will get shot to pieces, but artillery divisions? Not so much. Since they'll be fighting behind a mass of combat corps, the Axis probably won't got many chances to hit them directly.

That being said the rocket artillery divisions are rather slow to fill out their TOEs. The regular breakthrough artillery divisions are faster.



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Post #: 320
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 7:13:32 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry


quote:

ORIGINAL: glvaca

I think a point often overlooked is that the Germans got their best exchange rates while conducting mobile operations. The so called elastic defence.
The Germans recognized they could not win the war of attrition as being played out in this game.
IT would be interesting to see whether a serious retreat, followed by a pincer attack could achieve success.



Spot on!

Sounds good but in this game by 44 I will be interested to see it happen.


Under current rules set its not possible to do mobile operations as the ratio is far to low. You can simply look at the 2 other old games and see how low their OOB are. Also as Kamil has stated infantry corps have as much or more CV then the best SS units. So by late 43 mobile operations arn't even a possiblity. If you do get a break through almost every unit on the board has 2x the cv of a German infantry units and close to or higher then best SS unit.

Mobile operation are simply a none starter. Even winning the ratio is 1 to 1.5 much much lower then historical.
Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/5/2012 7:14:04 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to cavalry)
Post #: 321
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 7:19:06 PM   
Pelton

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

You have to build Artillery Divisions now, though, if you want to use them in 1944. It takes almost 6 months to attain a decent level of training to where they hit anything.

RE: The Wehrmacht, I don't think there is any doubt that the Wehrmacht's strength was it's institutional memory, specifically the quality of it's officer corps up through the staff level. They ran circles around everyone else depite sub-par equipment in the early war, because they were far ahead in this area.

But as the war continued, overall proficiency in the Wehrmacht dropped, because of attrition to the officer cadres, plus the expansion of the Wehrmacht and subsequent dilution of quality. Quality was concentrated in a few formations like the SS and some Panzers; these formations maintained very high proficiency to the end of the war. The Infantry, though, was on a slow decline throughout the war, as the officer corps died-off, and the Wehrmacht scraped the bottom of the manpower barrell.

"Morale" is so misleading, it's really "Military Proficiency". And in this area, the Werhmacht experienced a slow, but steady decline after 1941.


The biggest reason they lost the upper hand was because of the airwar. The only reason they kick France and England around so easly with les men and sub par tanks was because the infantry or panzers would call in Stuka's( after 109's clear air space) and they clean house. Rinse and repeat. Germans were far ahead of their time in the use of firepower at a Tactical level.

On the Eastern front they were out gunned and out numbered and yet had a cake walk for 5 months.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/5/2012 7:20:15 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Q-Ball)
Post #: 322
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 7:23:41 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 6299
Joined: 9/9/2009
From: Southern California
Status: offline
Pelton, it's not quite that clear cut. It's totally ok to wreck the Wehrmacht if by doing so you slow down the Soviet advance long enough to win on points. The game won't score you on the basis of what kind of shape the army is in. If you expend it and force the Red Army to come up short of the finish line...that's good enough.

However, this is all theoretical. We haven't yet seen if it can work this way. There's always the danger that the Axis will fall apart so badly that the Red Army will make up for lost time and brush aside the remnants, grabbing all the real estate in time to score a win. So it's a balancing act and not for the feint of heart.



_____________________________

WitE Alpha Tester

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 323
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/5/2012 7:31:28 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

quote:

Sure it made a nice bonfire, but its effects were simply over rated as everyone knows now.

quote:

Again were know from personall accounts of what German morale was, your option is counter to fact, silly little man.


Pelton, my pleasure of watching you playing on so many topics is constantly ruined by your obvious need to sound so offensive & look so contemptuous either toward the devs or here your fellow players. I really wonder how someone who believes the game to be so broken can actually still have interest into playing it as much as you do (cf. your signature). Is that because you believe it's the only way you may sound legitimate to bash it, or is it because beyond your anger and all the filth, you actually ENJOY the silly wargame it is?

And by the way, apart from my very curiosity about seeing how your "morale" endures a violent bombing firestorm someday, you may also take as a factor in your "facts" the very thing that made fire bombing in Germany and everything else somehow a little different from the Blitz or Leningrad, as these are the very examples you picked up: enduring a firestorm as the victim on the brink of losing everything, and enduring a firestorm as the aggressor witnessing the tide turning don't exactly have the same impact on the minds.
Btw, you sound like someone who has had a lot of contacts and experience with former Hamburg, Koln or Dresden inhabitants, maybe they'll be able to clarify better with you what you believe to be a "nice bonfire", you unbelievable unseen senseless piece of crap. You know, back in those days Adolf Galland would say the night looked like the day. When they tell you how they couldn't tell which carbonized kid under the rubble was whose or when Feldgrau Fritz reads about his family vanishing overnight while he's in garrison somewhere in France, yes, sure, morale +1, all the way man. And thanks the glorious Leader!

It's not because people don't care that they try to pretend that things shall go back to normal, and get back to their lives, or work harder at the factory and please Mr.Speer (what is even easier when you've lost everybody in a "nice bonfire" and Gunther is fighting somewhere in Belorussia, hey!). It's because trying to pretend everything is alright is the only thing that is keeping them from turning insane.

What you call higher morale, is more exactly desperation. And if Leningrad or London inhabitants had hope to somehow cure them from this trait - from late 1943 onwards, what exactly was the Germans' one? So, well, sorry, yeah. Except if you're some SS freak, I do not believe you could actually describe Germany's morale, especially on the frontline, to be noticeably rising from the previous years levels, strangely enough... If desperation for the reds shall count as low morale in 1941, than the opposite is applicable true.



See the problem with your arguement is you as with all the I want have my cake and eat it to poeple, say German morale must go down because of xy and z.

But Russian morale must go up even if the German player has done far far better then historical in kills, city's taken ect ect.

Its just silly for you guys to say German morale MUST go down because of losses ect ect , but if Tarhunass or any German player kills more Reds then historical, take Moscow, Leningrad Stalingrad ect ect

Russian Morale MUST go up based on 1 thing a random time line put in the game based on nothing in game.

Your arguement is sillyness that anyone with an open mind looks at and laughs.

I hang around because I am 100% right.

The game should not be based 100% on a time line, it should be based on in game results.

The current NM rule set it a built in I win button for the russian player. Their morale goes up even when they are losing far far worse then historical.

yes citys bombed burn to ground troop loses higher them historical, but you some how think their morale should be going up?

Thats just silly, but poeple will keep on tring to have their cake and eat it to.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 1/5/2012 7:32:52 PM >


_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 324
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/6/2012 4:03:51 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
German OOB: 3,822,000
Turn 135 90 turns left
Trend in OOB: -113,000
AVG Per turn: -20,000
——SHC—-Attacks———–Wins—-Losses
Total————152—————91———61—
This Turn——23—————–-15———8
GHC—-Counter Attacks———Wins—-Losses—–-
——————14-———————14———0——–—-
This turn——4————————4————————





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 325
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/6/2012 4:04:28 AM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
2




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 326
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/8/2012 9:23:45 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Turn 137 97 turns left
Trend in German OOB: -230,000
AVG Per turn: -32,000
——SHC—-Attacks———–Wins—-Losses
Total————208—————132———77—
This Turn——32—————–-23———9
GHC—-Counter Attacks———Wins—-Losses—–-
——————14-———————14———0——–—-
This turn——0————————0————————





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 327
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/8/2012 9:24:18 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
Lines




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 328
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/9/2012 6:29:00 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2204
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline
I agree with Pelton that the built in mechanics of the Soviets getting better and the Axis getting worse regardless of whats actually happening in the game really dont make sense.

I do realize that "morale" is more a function of capabilities rather then the usual definition of "morale" in most games but its still kinda quirky to me.

In my game against DAK41 as the Soviets I did very well in my winter offensive and am overall doing very well gamewise but I am currently seeing a decline in my average effectiveness due to my national morale slipping in 1942.

I am not sure what the answer is (there may not be one) but the system does seem sorta quirky.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 329
RE: Pelton vs Kamil - 1/13/2012 1:52:49 PM   
Pelton

 

Posts: 5720
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline
December 1943 to February 1944
85 turns left in game.
Turn 130 - 140 Trends
88 armaments captured.
355,000 armaments in pool.
AP Trend: -165,000
German OOB: 3,484,000
Trend in OOB: -338,000
AVG Per turn: -34,000
——SHC—-Attacks———–Wins—-Losses
Total————305—————199———106—
This Turn——39—————–-28———–11
GHC—-Counter Attacks———Wins—-Losses—–-
——————14-———————14———0——–—-
This turn——0————————0————————
Losses from turn 130 - 140
————————-Men————Guns———-Tanks——Planes
GHC—————–623,000————6,150———3,124———629
SHC-—————1,259,000———–18,440——13,500-——2,158
Ratio—————2.0 to 1————3.0 to 1———4.3 to 1— 10 to 1

OOB difference from turn 130 - 140 .

GHC————–/-338,000——–/-3,700-——–-/-1900———–+60
SHC-————–0000000———/-2000———/-3000———–-/-500

The push to Berlin started during this 10 turn trend. The Tempo is up to 30 attacks per turn. Which has lowered my OOB by 338,000 at this rate it should take about 30 clear turns to break the German army.
The 8 turns of mud from April to late June will help bring back the OOB some and give me a chance to shorten/strengthen lines. Hopefully with the ice going out river lines will again help slow down Kamils attacks and I can string the breaking point to 50 to 60 turns. So looking like December 1944. I could do a general with drawal and by another 10 turns. Static mode would also greatly help, IF I can stabilize my lines this coming summer.

On the up side Kamil’s losses in tanks is staggering. Not sure what he has got for armaments points, but his tank and gun OOB totals are dropping. The loses in guns is not to bad because he has 145,000 so even at this rate he still have at least 120,000 by the end of the game more then enough. The tank lose rate would put his tank OOB at around 8,000 by next December. Which is a good thing for me because he will not be able to exploit much during 44/45 blizzard turns.

Air war is going good so far.

Land wise from Keiv north I have only lost a few hexes in almost 2 yrs. South of Keiv I have been losing ground slowly. I have allot of infantry units that I will have to transfer from north to south. I am going to try and keep minor allies in game as long as possible. CV have dropped some because of the morale hit I am taking, but over all doing as expected.





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

GHC
22 - 4 - 8

15 games ended in 41 (15-0-0)
7 games ended in 42 (5-0-2)
8 games ended in 43 (2-3-3)
4 games ended in 44 (0-1-3)


General Cheesefinder of WitW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afmyypGyfng&list=PLrY4H4gWWBircAjo

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 330
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