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Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+

 
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Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/25/2011 3:38:47 PM   
Pelton

 

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I figured this game would be going on for a long time so I start a new thread. The old one is at

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2823600

Hoooper has been my best enemy to date. My summer O was ok Leningrad, Orel, Rostov and Crimea bottle neck. I destroyed all the Leningrad factorys plus 76 arm pts and 37 hvy pt. His winter O was ok. My summer of 42 O was a bust no manjor pockets just straighten the line basicly. Basicly the lines are withen 0-6 hexs of where they were on turn 18 and its turn 70.

So we been trading hexs and killing a few men for 52 turns. The one area Hoooper has smoked me in is planes, hes taken advantage of the Russian plane exploit and destroyed 10000 planes. I have with draw them and will only use them during turns that rivers are frozen. So basicly I be without an airforse after the 1943/44 winter.
First here is what was destoryed as far as production goes.

Destroyed all Factories in Leningrad
Destroyed 76 AP and 37 HVY

Here are some basic trends I have been keeping track of in all my game.

Hoooper -
T-10 Loses:
SHC 2.2 mil men 12700 tanks 31000 art 9000 planes
GHC 334,000 men 1860 tanks 3000 art
Current:
SHC 3.8 mil troops 6000 tanks 37000 art 5669 planes
GHC 3.3 mil troops 1740 tanks 35000 art 3000 planes
Lines: Destroyed factories in Leningrad

Pelton vs Hoooper
T-30 Loses:
SHC 3.7 mil men 17000 tanks 51000 art 13000 planes
GHC 1.2 men 3450 tanks 10000 art 1500 Planes
Current:
SHC 5.4 mil troops 6000 tanks 62000 art 9500 planes
GHC 3.0 mil troops 2150 tanks 35000 art 3400 planes

Pelton vs Hoooper
T-50 Loses:
SHC 4.75 mil men 16000tanks 65000art
GHC 1.75 mil men 4500 tanks 20000 art
Current:
SHC 7.0 mil troops 6000 tanks 91000 art 10000 planes
GHC 3.0 mil troops 4000 tanks 37000 art 3000 planes

I started trending what is happening every 10 turns as far as land lost and net gains or losses in men.

Turn 60 - 70

Attacks Retreats Held

SHC 105 79 26
GHC 33 32 1

Net Hexs - 55 Average hexs lost per turn is 6, some hexs were in no mans land for several turns.

Net Loss or Gain to OOB
Men

SHC -264,592 (-24K)
GHC - 162,468 (-16K)

My basic plan is to let him attack and counter him in the unfortified hexs, make sure I am level 3 fort 2 to 3 deep. I must keep him east of the rivers and land bridge until after the rivers unfreeze from the 42/43 winter. If I can do this I should be able to hold the river line until the 43/44 winter when the rivers are froozen again. If I have that line then my looses should be light and I should still have strong forses come the summer of 44.

If I can hold that line during the 43 summer I have a very deep line of forts build behind river.

So basicly in my plans the winter of 42/43 is critical for me at least getting a draw.

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/25/2011 3:57:28 PM >
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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/25/2011 3:43:15 PM   
Pelton

 

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AGN. Hes tried to push some in this area during the summer and I had to seen 2 panzer Corps to area an straighten out the line. 1 inf corps has been sent to area to fill and strengthen the line so the tank corps can be pulled back into reserve.
Level 3 or 4 forts 2 deep basicly in this area.





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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/25/2011 3:45:56 PM   
Pelton

 

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AGC Not far from land bridge and major rivers so I am working on 4 deep lvl 3 and 4 forts here with reserve forses being sent to area.

As can be seen I am building 2 deep at land bridge an 1 deep behind river.




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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/25/2011 3:49:52 PM   
Pelton

 

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AGS

Hes pushing around Stalino hard but I have 4 to 6 deep of lvl 3 to 4 forts in area an this is the longest distance to river so I have been moving troops out of area to center. 1 inf and 1 tank corp in reserver to counter attack where needed. From just north of Keiv to sea I have garrasion the river and fort lvls are 2 to 4.

I should be 2 deep lvl 3 atleast be the time he gets to river.

Pelton




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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/25/2011 3:51:20 PM   
Pelton

 

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Not sure if this is good or bad?

Troop lvls for me are stable and with increase in 43 of arm I should be at full strength come 43 summer.




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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/25/2011 3:51:54 PM   
Pelton

 

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OOB




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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/25/2011 4:06:22 PM   
Klydon


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Very interesting. I am surprised you are not digging in along the Molochna straight south of Z-Town as this will result in a very straight line, most of which is behind a river line. If nothing else, it makes sense as a point of delay. Same going north of D-Town. Lot of north/south rivers there to build behind and at least make him stop and set up for set piece battles.

Looks like most of his corps strength is in the south.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/25/2011 4:19:09 PM   
Pelton

 

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Good pt. I have been able to dig behind the front faster then he can advance. He takes a hex and I replase it with another fort behind the secound line, but once I get a set of lvl 3s behind river I am going to send out 2/3 of the river diggers behind the front. I just keep moving the 1/3 of forses behind river from hex to hex to keep the forts at levels 3.

I will use this extra diggers to build lines of forts where u were thking I should.

Thanks for input

Pelton

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/25/2011 6:42:49 PM   
Q-Ball


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This will be interesting, to see a 1941-45 GC in 1943. Haven't been too many of those.

You are digging in the right places it seems, and with the right kind of units (I think those are Luftwaffe Regts in the north; they make good diggers)

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 1:48:42 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Very interesting. I am surprised you are not digging in along the Molochna straight south of Z-Town as this will result in a very straight line, most of which is behind a river line. If nothing else, it makes sense as a point of delay. Same going north of D-Town. Lot of north/south rivers there to build behind and at least make him stop and set up for set piece battles.

Looks like most of his corps strength is in the south.



Yeah, I prefer the Molochna both as the Germans and the Russians - it's an even better defensive point than it looks like due to the lake and major river/bay to the South. All this of course assumes you have time to dig in, since forts are doubly important there.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 3:22:52 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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Very nice Pelton
You are doing much better than I am compared to the game that I have going with hooops. How does one deal with the overpowering Red Air Force? My Luftwaffe has been bombed back to the stone age in the same manner as yours.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 5:14:50 PM   
Pelton

 

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As far as airforse goes its a huge unbalance that the developers know about, but have yet to address.

The best you can do is take out 4500 or so first turn then bomb his air fields every turn, but still by July 42 the Red Airforse will get upper hand. One turn in July I lost 824 planes to his 486, 100% unhistirical, to say the least, but when the Russian player can build what he wants and the German can't those are the HUGE unbalance that will happen. In any game poeple will find game imbalances and exploit them to death, until the devs get off there butts the plane exploit will be exploited to death the same as the HQ build-up was.

So now Hoooper can use his air forse to grind down my army,because planes are so cheap to make. Alls the devs have to do is make planes cost more and exploit will end.

Basicly now what you have to do is pull back your air bases and get your air fleet built back up some and only use them when needed. Try to keep your army in forts and AA units at full strength.

Only reason I am where I am now is because I knew I would be wasting troops having a 42 summer O because of the air power exploit so I simply started digging in in July. I also beleive I have destoried just enough of his production to get atleast a draw.

So here we are grinding it out.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 6:01:42 PM   
Harrybanana

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

As far as airforse goes its a huge unbalance that the developers know about, but have yet to address.

The best you can do is take out 4500 or so first turn then bomb his air fields every turn, but still by July 42 the Red Airforse will get upper hand. One turn in July I lost 824 planes to his 486, 100% unhistirical, to say the least, but when the Russian player can build what he wants and the German can't those are the HUGE unbalance that will happen. In any game poeple will find game imbalances and exploit them to death, until the devs get off there butts the plane exploit will be exploited to death the same as the HQ build-up was.

So now Hoooper can use his air forse to grind down my army,because planes are so cheap to make. Alls the devs have to do is make planes cost more and exploit will end.



Don't want to hijack your thread here Pelton (which I am really enjoying by the way), but I'm a bit of a newbie (though trying to learn quickly) so I really don't know as I fully understand how the Soviet airforce imbalance thing works. You say it is because the Russians can build what they want and the Germans can't and the Russian player exploits this. But I don't think the Russian player can just build what ever he wants can he? Certainly he can build more airgroups (though it seems he gets lots of these anyway) but he can't decide to change his MiG-3 production to Yak-1 can he? So he still has to flesh out his airgroups with whatever aircraft are available, over which he has no control. From reading other posts I thought the exploit (if it can be called that, don't want to offend anybody) had something to do with using his multitude of planes to bomb German airbases many times every turn. If so I agree that the Germans should be given the abilty to build AA type support units to counter this threat. But I've yet to encounter this myself, so may not understand it.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 7:29:31 PM   
randallw

 

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The Soviet player cannot order up air units; the imbalance comes from the larger Soviet production, plus lend lease arrivals.

It does seem a bit weird to me that the Soviet side has solidly superior numbers in the middle of 1942.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 7:31:11 PM   
Pelton

 

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You basicly have it right.

They target your fighter bases and simply bomb the crap out of it until they cant fly, then bomb the crap out of your bomber bases.

It takes a good long time, but after a while you got nothing.

I do not pull back my airforse in the winter until after december. I have to keep the Reds in my 3 deep level 3 forts until at least January. At some point I pull them back until the summer O.

Right now I am saving them until rivers are froozen. I have to do my best to keep him east of rivers until they unfreeze then spend 43 digging forts from the river to Berlin heheh

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 7:37:02 PM   
Ketza


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I think if as the Axis you "mix it up" on your bases and stack them close together with a very high cap rate you can thwart this Soviet tactic of swarming your airfields as Axis.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 7:45:28 PM   
Pelton

 

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Thats what I been doing. I still have a strong enough air forse to use probably one more time for 2 to 3 months, but I thk after that its done for. Not really to far of from when Germans lost the air war at Kursk. Once I lost 826 in one turn I figured it was time to pull out an save what I had for the winter.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 8:03:48 PM   
Ketza


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Well I am sure I will reach that point eventually as well. For now my opponent is right around the 3-1 ratio of air strength. As long as I can keep it that close I will be in the air battle.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/26/2011 9:31:36 PM   
Baelfiin

 

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Facing the same issue, Red air force seems to be able to bomb the Germans into oblivion, and even when they get intercepted they do not take significant losses. In my game have less than 100 fighters left in the entire eastern front. One air base got bombed 25 times 8)

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/28/2011 11:51:06 AM   
Hoooper

 

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Now I'm feeling a bit guilty about all the airbase bombing I've been doing . I have no idea how much airfield bombing the Soviets did in the war, or how much damage it caused, but I agree with Mr Pelton that it does seem a bit over-effective in the game. And it's not like it's superb strategy - you just keep cycling air units with fewer than 50% planes ready to the national reserve and bring them back when they've been reinforced. The rest is just lots and lots of clicking. I guess there are tactics the Germans can use - bases with no planes and lots of flak attached to the HQ for example. Also, I wonder if putting the bases in cities and boosting the German flak support is any use?

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/28/2011 2:19:41 PM   
delatbabel


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This comes from Second Front/War in Russia. Bombing airfields was the best way to win the air war, and other than the first turn it's much more effective than history would seem to indicate. Now there were particular planes that were great at strafing airfields and causing buckets of damage, the US P-47 comes to mind, but for the most case flying level bombers over airfields is a very hit and miss affair, mostly miss.

Even then, in most of the well documented effective P-47 raids, there was a lot of airfield damage and not a lot of plane damage. The real destruction of the Luftwaffe occurred when the disabled airfields were overrun by advancing allied armour, and the planes on the ground couldn't get away due to the airfield damage and lack of fuel (fuel depots having exploded in the prior attack). The real telling blow was allied bombing of the production facilities though, the ball bearing factory at Regensburg being the most well documented case although not the single most effective one. Once the Germans couldn't produce the planes to replace their air to air losses the war was over for the Luftwaffe.


_____________________________

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/28/2011 3:25:41 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: delatbabel

This comes from Second Front/War in Russia. Bombing airfields was the best way to win the air war, and other than the first turn it's much more effective than history would seem to indicate. Now there were particular planes that were great at strafing airfields and causing buckets of damage, the US P-47 comes to mind, but for the most case flying level bombers over airfields is a very hit and miss affair, mostly miss.

Even then, in most of the well documented effective P-47 raids, there was a lot of airfield damage and not a lot of plane damage. The real destruction of the Luftwaffe occurred when the disabled airfields were overrun by advancing allied armour, and the planes on the ground couldn't get away due to the airfield damage and lack of fuel (fuel depots having exploded in the prior attack). The real telling blow was allied bombing of the production facilities though, the ball bearing factory at Regensburg being the most well documented case although not the single most effective one. Once the Germans couldn't produce the planes to replace their air to air losses the war was over for the Luftwaffe.



Hmmm, the fuel thing yes, but the Luftwaffe had more planes than they could use in late war. The really scarce items were trained pilots and fuel.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/28/2011 9:14:33 PM   
Pelton

 

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Hoooper it is part of the game I don't expect you to stop. If the shoe was on the other foot I would be doing the same thing.

As far as the Allied bombing goes, it really had no effect on German production or moral.

Germany's most productive months of the war were late 44. It did cause the Germans to expend resourses changing production locations and AA guns ect. So it did hope in that respect, but the bombing was a watse of resourse on our part also. So overall it probably had litte or no positive effect on the over all war effort.

The main effect air power had on WW2 was on ground combat in a support roll and supply withen a 50 miles of the front.

Only during the last 20 yrs has air power truely become the end all to be all that Generals dreamed of during WW1.

Pelton

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/28/2011 9:25:13 PM   
hfarrish


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quote:



As far as the Allied bombing goes, it really had no effect on German production or moral.

Germany's most productive months of the war were late 44. It did cause the Germans to expend resourses changing production locations and AA guns ect. So it did hope in that respect, but the bombing was a watse of resourse on our part also. So overall it probably had litte or no positive effect on the over all war effort.



I think that this has been revisited as of late; obviously it doesn't prove or disprove whether airpower had a meaningful impact by saying Germany's war production was maxed in late 44, you would need to know what its production was relative to its capacity. I think the impact of drawing massive German air resources alone away from the front can't be overlooked.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/28/2011 9:48:32 PM   
Pelton

 

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One bad thing for me going on is that when Hooper attacks me even in lvl 4 forts the loses are even, plus I lose allot more art or tanks because of retreating.

Instead of past turns where he was only winning 60% of battles hes winning 86%.

Not sure if thats normal.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/28/2011 10:47:45 PM   
Michael T


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quote:

Hmmm, the fuel thing yes, but the Luftwaffe had more planes than they could use in late war. The really scarce items were trained pilots and fuel.



+1

That's in line with everything I have read on the matter.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/28/2011 10:54:05 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pelton

One bad thing for me going on is that when Hooper attacks me even in lvl 4 forts the loses are even, plus I lose allot more art or tanks because of retreating.

Instead of past turns where he was only winning 60% of battles hes winning 86%.

Not sure if thats normal.


What year is this now?

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/28/2011 11:03:50 PM   
Pelton

 

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November 42. I will post when we hit turn 80. Loses from 70 to 80 and pictures averge losses of men and hexes same as turn 60 to 70.

He is pushing hard near Kharkov, he pushed a nice 9 hexes bubble and a 4 hex bubble just north or Kharkov. I had to commit my southern front reservers of 5 inf and 6 panzer divisions to counter attack and take back 6 hexes routing 9 Russian Armored divisions. I also moved up my diggers to try an make sure I have at least 2 to 3 rows of lvl 3 and lvl 4 forts. I have nice little mass of It and Rum digging away heheh.

The mud turns were dead, but the snow turns are averaging 18 attacks by him and 10 by me per turn. He is gaining about 10 hexs a turn. I will get a big boost in production on Jan 1 43 so that should really help me for a while.

Defencive tactics are basicly where he is pushing the most shift my lines north/south to double stack and send panzers. This generally stops the push and he push in the weaker spot. Its basicly keeping the lines short for me and hopefully my troop numbers will stay around 25k rifle squads for a while.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 6/28/2011 11:13:16 PM >

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/29/2011 1:14:03 AM   
Baelfiin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hoooper

Now I'm feeling a bit guilty about all the airbase bombing I've been doing . I have no idea how much airfield bombing the Soviets did in the war, or how much damage it caused, but I agree with Mr Pelton that it does seem a bit over-effective in the game. And it's not like it's superb strategy - you just keep cycling air units with fewer than 50% planes ready to the national reserve and bring them back when they've been reinforced. The rest is just lots and lots of clicking. I guess there are tactics the Germans can use - bases with no planes and lots of flak attached to the HQ for example. Also, I wonder if putting the bases in cities and boosting the German flak support is any use?

Its all good man, I'm trying some things to see if I can come up with a counter strategy 8)
From my end the FLaK doesnt seem to do too much.

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RE: Pelton vs Hoooper Grinding it out turn 70+ - 6/29/2011 10:55:32 AM   
Hoooper

 

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Ha ha, well if you don't mind too much, I'll carry on
In response to Pelton's question about the increase in successful attacks, I think that's partly explained by the big jump in Soviet corps when the Don and Stalingrad fronts are formed (about 10 can be built that turn), which triples Soviet firepower in breakthrough sectors, but mostly I think it's just because the line is getting increasingly wavy, so there are lots of three-hex attacks to be had. You might be helped by the latest beta patch though (when it's debugged) - I think there's a penalty for attacking with lots of units. I'm also starting to see some 2 fort hexes ...
On the earlier subject of Allied air power, the economist Adam Tooze sez that strategic bombing had negligible effect until the battle of the Ruhr and the destruction of Hamburg in March-July 1943, which "halted assembly lines across Germany". He's got a graph that shows that total armaments went up by 5.5% a month until then, after which the average growth rate was zero (it's in a book called Wages of Destruction if you're interested). On the other hand, you could argue that the cost of building and operating the RAF bomber fleet wrecked the British economy as well .. As far as I know we're still paying off the money we spent on it.

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