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Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions?

 
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Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 6/21/2011 8:03:17 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 970
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Just wondering if anyone else has the same feeling as me about the Bulge (it's not a problem with the game). Don't you find the results depressingly accurate, almost whichever historical battle you fight? That is, if you play the germans then you can make some initial ground, achieve objectives etc, but basically the Yanks are coming, and coming in force, and there's no way you're going to win really (playing on realistic orders delay with options unchanged). If you fiddle with the supply and reinforcements you can sometimes win, sometimes win easily, but that's not the historical set up. If you play the Yanks then you're going to take a bit of a bashing, initially, have to fall back etc (a couple of attacking scenarios aside), but basically you're waiting for all that materiel to arrive, and when it does you're going to recover quite well. Isn't there a depressing predictability about this?

Whereas, a few of the COTA scenarios i really don't know what will happen. the Italian attacks, for example, are, I think, great to play because it really feels it could go either way and - and here's the point - it feels like your decisions might make a difference. for example, I once played Hofen Ho-Down as the Yanks, gave one order only for the entire game, just to see what happened - a defend in situ order to the on map boss - and, no surprise, perhaps, the AI handled it all perfectly and got much the result that the yanks got historically, and that I got if I fiddled around more.

This is one reason I'm really looking forward to the HTTR add-on. Certain scenarios there also have the feel of having different possible outcomes.
Post #: 1
RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 6/21/2011 9:29:59 PM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		Try some of the smaller scenarios - where there can be an 'undecided' element. Yes eventually the Germans will run out of steam and be forced back... but that can be made costly for the US (small counter-attacks and artillery interventions at inopportune moments).

Otherwise look at some of the WIP offerings such as Afwaterings or Merdjayoun.

Nothing stops the Estab being expanded, or new maps/theatres offering a different feel. You could use 'the same' maps to depict a 1940s advance by the German Forces on an Allied force which was less well prepared & organised (but better equipped) for mobile warfare.

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 2
RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 6/21/2011 9:43:37 PM   
phoenix

 

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Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks Lieste. I think the Woensdrecht scenario is fantastic. Played it many times and always the AI does something different. Loved the first Epsom scenario too, though it felt more like an allied win, of sorts, was inevitable (as in history, I guess, so it's not a criticism). Haven't tried the 2 you mention though (or the second Epsom, or, indeed, the St. Lo because the amount of units at start up just looks so daunting...). Altering the estabs sounds v diff, to me, or at least v time consuming, though I'm sure you could get to love it.

Did you have any particular smaller scenario in mind from BFTB?

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RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 6/21/2011 10:12:43 PM   
Lieste

 

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Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		Hmm. Not sure if the 352nd counts as smaller, but that is certainly *not* a forgone conclusion, and is possibly one of the slower/tougher OTag scenarios - it was my first non-demo/tutorial one, and it is difficult to simultaneously contain/reduce/eliminate the forward outposts and get coherent forces onto the deep objectives with the iffy forces on hand at the start.

I only managed a draw on first play due to some supply hiccups on D2, and slow acquisition of his artillery.

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RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 6/21/2011 10:32:15 PM   
phoenix

 

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Status: offline 		Sorry. Which scenario did you mean? 352nd? Otag?

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RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 6/21/2011 10:39:07 PM   
Lieste

 

Posts: 1608
Joined: 11/1/2008
Status: offline 		I think it was Nobody Comes Back, but I can't launch it to check right now.

352nd VGD, 15FJD vs part of 28th Division at Diekirch, on OTag: 1944/12/16 (like D-Day/H-Hour etc)


< Message edited by Lieste -- 6/21/2011 10:41:31 PM >

(in reply to phoenix)
Post #: 6
RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 6/21/2011 10:45:18 PM   
phoenix

 

Posts: 970
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Ah-ha. thanks. yes. that's Nobody comes Back. Will try it again. Never played it as the Germans.

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Post #: 7
RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 6/24/2011 1:55:14 PM   
Agema

 

Posts: 153
Joined: 1/17/2005
Status: offline 		I find most of these exceedingly difficult as the Germans. Several as the Americans (particularly the post-breakthrough missions) I've played almost entirely on autopilot - no personally directed artillery, no fine tuning, just casually send battalions or even regiments to go places and win comfortably.

The Germans however... yuck. I had particular nightmares on Greyhound Dash. Two divisions, of which the VG division is not only virtually useless on the offensive, but it can barely hold ground already taken either. And it's tiny: 3 regiments of about 1500-2000 men apiece! It's a mere half-division, and a half-division of unfit, untrained, inexperienced troops at that.

The 116Pz is a good division, but it simply cannot hold the weight of American troops that arrive. On the occasions I played it, I could take one of major objectives of Hotton or Soy before a deluge of American units arrived, but that seemingly never-ending stream would destroy the 116Pz as a useful fighting force by day 4; even if I held the one major objective I'd taken, I had no offensive capabilities left to go further.

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RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 2/26/2012 2:46:21 AM   
Progames

 

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Status: offline 		Hey what do you mean with Germans ??? To play with Germans is the Best :DD

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RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 2/26/2012 3:00:53 PM   
wodin


Posts: 6503
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Programes, what he is saying is it's to damn hard to play as the Germans in this game.

I prefer CotA of the Bulge. Have done for awhile now. CotA is my favourite of the series.

I think theatre wise the Bulge is the weakest of the three. The game is great just the Battle is a slog.

I wish that CotA could be patched up alittle especially with regards to retreating to keep it inline with BftB etc.

< Message edited by wodin -- 2/26/2012 3:08:56 PM >

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RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 2/28/2012 11:24:33 AM   
nicwb

 

Posts: 250
Joined: 4/26/2010
Status: offline 		I wouldn't mind seeing COTA patched either - you do notice the difference between it and BFTB.

I was playing Maleme the Kiwis fight back scenario a few days ago, only to have the Kiwis throw the battalion supply base into the initial assault sort of killed the reality a bit

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Post #: 11
RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 3/1/2012 7:37:07 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1239
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Middletown Ohio
Status: offline 		All,

I got away from this game (BftB/HttR) for a couple weeks for the same reasons. But I have an idea.

First of all, I don't want this construed as putting a bad light on Matrix, it's partners, or staff. I like this company a lot. They put up with folks like me crying about details that really don't matter. Replies to complaints are usually fast and usually accomanied by very good reasons why they did what they did.

We have the folks right here on this forum to fix a lot of our "problems", I believe. People like Ranger X3X and Sweeteye are excellent modders. Wodin, Rockin' Harry, simovitch all have more knowledge of this theater than I could possibly soak up.

What about taking the scenarios and tweaking them amongst ourselves? We have the editor, right? As they are tweaked we could make them available to all.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Nate

(in reply to nicwb)
Post #: 12
RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 3/1/2012 7:39:17 PM   
nate25


Posts: 1239
Joined: 9/20/2011
From: Middletown Ohio
Status: offline 		I should add there are a lot of other posters I didn't name that are very knowledgeable. I just cited examples.

Thanks,
Nate

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Post #: 13
RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 3/1/2012 11:56:32 PM   
sweeteye


Posts: 314
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		Not sure what think....If you could get a general consensus on how a scenario would be changed it might work...You can still always play the scenario as it was originally made if you like.Everybody seems to have different ideas about how a scenario should be....This is a tough one because there are so many factors that effect the way a scenario runs.Probably the only ones who fully understand what effects what are Arjuna,Panther Paul, and Simovitch...

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 3/2/2012 12:15:18 AM >

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RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 3/2/2012 7:27:57 AM   
JeffK


Posts: 4698
Joined: 1/26/2005
From: In a little tin hut in a big tin shed
Status: offline 		The game is great, but the use of the Bulge as its battleground creates the environment which causes the problem.

You cannot simulate the panic and despondancy found amongst the US troops which allowed the, in reality, poorly equipped Wermacht troops to push them back. As the player, its too easy to sit back with 100% knowledge of the terrain, 100% knowledge of the road net and a pretty good knowledge of the opposition. in most scenario, for the USA its hold on until the Cavalry arrives.

IMVHO, the game is better when the environment is more fluid, that both sides do some manouvring and can attempt different lines of approach.
I also think the East Front version will fall into the same.

Being an ideas man, but not much of a doer, there are a lot of battles inItaly and NW Europe which could provide more interesting battles for this engine.

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Post #: 15
RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 3/2/2012 8:44:01 AM   
wodin


Posts: 6503
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: England
Status: offline 		Funny, because I think if the right battles are chosen the EF could be great. So many more battles and minor attacks to chose from and all types catered for. Also it's unlikely everyone will have the same amount of pre knowledge with regards to the Chir Battles or many other EF battle.

I tried the Africa scenarios that came out for CotA and just couldn't get into them. As for Italy again you have the Bulge in reverse, terrible terrian with the Allies on the Attack this time.

France 40 could be good, but if you give the French the equipment they had it would be hard to replicate how quickly the Germans steamrollered them.

I'd be interested to know what NW Europe battles you had in mind especially later war as I struggle to think of any myself that fullfill what your looking for. Normandy is bocage nightmare, Faliase Gap is slaughter, MG has been done and anything else really is a mass of Allied equipment against a ragged moral destroyed German army.

I'd put alot of the problems with regards to The Bulge down to the terrain.

< Message edited by wodin -- 3/2/2012 8:54:17 AM >

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RE: Depressing: COTA v BFTB - any opinions? - 3/2/2012 11:31:57 AM   
sweeteye


Posts: 314
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: Ohio USA
Status: offline 		"Historical scenarios" are really just what the name implies.They are "historical scenarios" and are going play out in a historical manner to some degree.All you really have to do is to change things around by changing the unit effectiveness values,morale,experience etc. and you will most likely get different results.After I played the board game Battle of the Bulge I felt the same way.Every time the American lines fall apart at the beginning and then gradually begin to recover.And there is no way to really change things with a board game.At least with BFTB it is easy enough to switch things around if you want. I have always been interested in the Battle of the Bulge but that is mainly because my father was right in the middle of it,not because it makes for an unpredictable game scenario.

< Message edited by sweeteye -- 3/2/2012 11:37:25 AM >

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