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RE: Victory Games Vietnam

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/9/2011 10:17:43 AM   


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And finally I corps and North Vietnam

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Post #: 31
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/18/2011 9:26:14 AM   


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I am finally finished with the pacification events (puh). Horribly boring, but now i can work on some more fun stuff.

Here is the briefing and rules when it comes to the Ho Chi Minh Trail

1.4 The Ho Chi Minh Trail (Tchepone, Saravaneh, Ban Tasseng, Lomphat, O’rang & Svay Riengh)

There are six potential NLF bases on the Ho Chi Minh trail. These are (from north to south) Tchepone, Saravaneh, Ban Tasseng, Lomphat, O’rang and Svay Riengh.

Tchepone and Saravaneh start the game as NLF bases. The other locations can be converted to NLF bases by upgrading the Ho Chi Minh trail. Each location has 1000 structural points and produce 1K each round.

The number of fully functional (undamaged) bases on the Ho Chi Minh trail determine how many military supplies are created by spending a NVA commitment point. Bases can be damaged by strategic bombing from the US or occupied by invading Laos or Cambodia. A damaged or occupied base does not count when it comes to determine how many supplies the NLF receives.

Upgrading the trail has the following cost and effects.

Functional bases 1 commitment= Military supplies Cost to upgrade to

None__________________________6__________________ At start
1_____________________________7___________________At start
2_____________________________8___________________At start´

< Message edited by Grymme -- 8/18/2011 9:30:14 AM >


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Post #: 32
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/21/2011 8:28:30 PM   


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The Campaign scenario is actually starting to come together nicely, there are still smaller things to do, but those qualify more under the adding flavour category so i am going to start a human vs human game. I will be playing the communists.

Might make a small AAR about it.

Meanwhile here is the Briefing, in its current state. It looks much better in word format, but you can get an idea.

Vietnam 1965-1975

Terrain & Locations
The ARVN Ineffective
Strategic bombing
SVN leaders
Morale and commitment
Game events and morale
Reinforcements and commitment
Free world allies
Population and draft levels
Northern recruits for the VC
ARVN recruiting
Augmenting the ARVN
VC mobilization
Local guerilla companies

Sources and Credits
Vietnam 1965-1975 by Victory Games
The Rise and Fall of an American Army by Shelby Stanton
Vietnam Order of Battle by Shelby Stanton
Victory by the People’s Army by the military institute of Vietnam
Various books on the subject by Osprey
A Rumour of War by Caputo.

NVA = North Vietnam or Democratic Republic of Vietnam
PAVN = People’s Army of Northern Vietnam
NLF = National Liberation front
PLAF= Peoples Liberation Armed Forces
SVN= South Vietnam or Republic of Vietnam
ARVN = Army of the Republic of Vietnam.

The game starts in June 1965 and ends in June 1975 if not before. Each round is a month long. Every third month (June, September, December and March) is a seasonal interface.
Units are generally battalions or regiments with brigade or division level HQs. One subformation generally represents a squad of infantry or approximately 10 vehicles.

General rule changes
The effect of tactical supply is greatly reduced. Units only get a 5% supply automatic drop. Supply has no weight. Each side gets a more than nesscessary supply dumped at the HQ closest to Saigon/Dong Hoi.

HQ power distance is changed from 3 to 8 and each step away reduces staff bonus by 10%. It is still possible to build new units from PPs but the cost is increased. Building a new unit cost 5PPs and building a new HQ 10PPs. Changing a units HQ only carries a 10% penalty.
Morale recovery is 100% each round.

The map
The white borders are province borders.
White names are province names.
The two numbers in the hex directly below the province names are SVN controlled population in the province and the total population in the province.
Cities with circles in them are provincial or special zone capitols. Cities with port symbols are starting locations for raising new Free world units.


The movement matrix has changed in some ways.
Foot Wheel Tracked Artillery Airmobile Riverine
Grassland 14 10 10 40 6 -
Cultivated 14 40 30 50 6 -
Sea - - - - 6 10
Jungle 30 50 40 70 6 -
Swamp 35 60 60 - 6 10
Hills 28 30 30 90 6 -
Forrested hill 40 70 60 90 6 -
Mountains 40 70 70 100 6 -
Urban 14 10 10 30 6 25
Fortification 14 10 10 30 6 25
Fortress 14 10 10 30 6 25
Road 14 7 7 30 6 -

Grassland -
Cultivated -
Sea 4
Jungle -
Swamp -
Hills -
Forrested hill -
Mountains -
Urban 20
Fortification 20
Fortress 20
Road -

Apart from the normal movement types Vietnam introduces two special movement types: Airmobile and riverine.
Air mobilized units are land units that move on land but with air speed.
Units mobilized by riverine vessels are good at moving in swamp terrain and can move in urban and sea terrain but nowhere else.

Terrain & Locations

Heavy Forrest has been given a 30 hide value instead of 20.
There are a couple of new terrains in Vietnam: Grassland, Forrested hills and cultivated.
Grassland & cultivated hexes are basically plains (although cultivated hexes provide an extra modifier in the pacification phase). Forrested hills are basically low mountains but with some extra cover (hide value 25 instead of 20).
Roads or other locations cannot be built in this scenario.

1.1 Reinforcement Areas
US reinforcements can arrive at any of the following locations: Hue, Da Nang, Tam Ky, Qui Nhon, Nha Trang, Cam Ranh, Yung Tao, Saigon and My Tho (all marked with a port symbol).
There are airbases at start placed outside the cities of (from north to south) Da Nang, Pleikku, Nha Trang, Pham Rang, Bien Hoa, and Can Tho. Reinforcements in the form of air points & airmobile points can only arrive here.

1.1 Honolulu & Okinawa
Honolulu is a US base and Okinawa a USM base. Each base produce 5K every round. Each also cost 2 replacement points each round. If there are not enough replacement points available then the production of the bases shuts down. The production will reopen again automatically when replacement points are available.
Honolulu and Okinawa are the only locations available for customized production of replacements.

1.2 Vinh Linh, Dong Hoi & Lang Mo
Vinh Linh, Dong Hoi and Lang Mo are NVA cities. Each city produces 3K every round. They do not cost replacement points to operate. They can be subject to strategic bombing. They each have 3000 structural points and rebuild automatically 200 each round.

1.3 Saigon & Vung Tao
Saigon is an SVN city and Vung Tao a SVM city. Saigon produces 5K and Vung Tao 2k. They do not cost replacement points to operate.

1.4 The Ho Chi Minh Trail (Tchepone, Saravaneh, Ban Tasseng, Lomphat, O’rang & Svay Riengh)
There are six potential NLF bases on the Ho Chi Minh trail. These are (from north to south) Tchepone, Saravaneh, Ban Tasseng, Lomphat, O’rang and Svay Riengh.
Tchepone and Saravaneh start the game as NLF bases. The other locations can be converted to NLF bases by upgrading the Ho Chi Minh trail. Each location has 1000 structural points and produce 1K each round. The number of fully functional (undamaged) bases on the Ho Chi Minh trail determines how many military supplies are created by spending a NVA commitment point. Bases can be damaged by strategic bombing from the US or occupied by invading Laos or Cambodia. A damaged or occupied base does not count when it comes to determine how many supplies the NLF receives.

Upgrading the trail has the following cost and effects.

Functional bases 1 commitment= Military supplies Cost to upgrade to
None 6 At start
1 7 At start
2 8 At start
3 9 8
4 10 10
5 11 12
6 12 12

The communist side has no fog of war which means that they can always see the exact location of all free world units.

2.1 Weather
During monsoon season (March, April and May) US air units suffer a 50% negative offensive modification in combat.

NVA (dark blue)
These are North Vietnamese army regular army soldiers. They have a high morale of 60 but units start with no experience with the exception of staff that starts with 40 experience.

VC (dark red)
Viet Cong. Communist guerilla in South Vietnam. They have a high morale of 60 and units start with 20 experience except for staff which start with 60 experience.

US (light green)
United State army units. They have morale of 50 and start with no experience. Each round every US unit has an 8% chance of losing all its experience because of troop rotation.

USM (dark green)

SVN (yellow)
South Vietnamese regulars. They make up the Army of the Republic of Vietnam (ARVN). These men are troubled by a low morale of 40 and start with no experience. Each round there is a 7% chance that a South Vietnamese unit will be ineffective causing a 100% drop in readiness. This chance increases to 15 % if the government is unstable and 30 % if there is a coup.

SVM (light yellow)
South Vietnamese Marines. These elite troops do not suffer from ineffectiveness. They have a base morale of 45.

Korean (purple)

Thai (grey)

Australian (light blue)

ANZAC (brown)


Free World Allies
After commitment reaches 50 there is a 50% chance each season that the Capitol Division arrives in Saigon. After the Capitol Division has arrived there is a 20 % chance each season that the 9th Division will arrive. After both these divisions has arrived there is a 35 % chance each season that the 2nd Marine Brigade will appear. Each Division automatically increases commitment by 3 and the Marine Brigade by 1.

Australian, ANZAC and Phillipine CAG
The Australian Royal Regiment with ANZAC battalion and the Phillipine CAG group will all appear after Free world commitment reaches 150.

When US commitment has reached 200 there is a 50 % chance each season that the Royal Thai Division will arrive as in Saigon. It automatically increases commitment by 3.

There are no replacements for Free World Allied units.

Max stacking in a hex has been changed from 100 to 300 and max per extra hex side from 50 to 150.

The seasonal interface
The seasonal interface occurs once every three months (June, September, December and March).
During the seasonal interface pacification and South Vietnamese politics occur. The seasonal interface is also the only time to deploy new units, military supplies, economic aid programs and other assets.

Creating new units
The only new troops that can be deployed in between seasonal interface months are replacements and VC companies.

During the seasonal interface units are generally deployed by playing the appropriate action card. On the action card the cost of deploying the unit is listed. US and NVA units generally cost commitment to bring in. ARVN and NLF units cost military supplies and personnel in the form of drafting from the population. Military supplies for creating ARVN and NLF units are created by the NVA or US spending commitment to build military supplies. Personnel for ARVN are the available SVN controlled population. Personnel for the NLF is available controlled population or through infiltrating recruits from the north.

ARVN and other free units can be placed in any of the port cities.
NVA units can be placed in North Vietnam.

PLAF companies can be placed anywhere in South Vietnam. Battalions can be placed anywhere in South Vietnam in proximity to the trail (4-8 hexes) or within 5 hexes of the coast. Regiments and Division HQs can be places anywhere in South Vietnam in proximity to the trail.

Building Military Supplies
Building up military supplies for the ARVN is not complicated. Playing the appropriate action card nets 7 supplies and cost 1 commitment.
Building military supplies for the NLF can be done in two ways, by sending them down the Ho Chi Minh Trail or by Sea Supply. The number of supplies created by sending them down the Ho Chi Minh trail is described more in detail in the Ho Chi Minh trail section. Spending 1 commitment can net 6-12 supplies depending on the optimal and effective status of the trail.
The number of supplies built by using sea supply depends on the status of any existing Naval Blockade. Every commitment spent can create 5-10 supply according to this formulation.
5 supplies is automatically created. For each one of supply 6-10 there is an interdiction chance of 10% for every US commitment spent on the naval blockade.

Example: If the US naval blockade were 3 then the chance of each supply above 5 being interdicted would be 30 % for a statistical likelihood of 1,5 supplies being interdicted each round.

Raising NLF draft
The NLF also uses its controlled population for creating units but the communist side can also spend commitment to infiltrate personnel to the south and thereby raising the possible draft by raising the population.

The number of new population added by spending commitment is related to the previous relationship between the current draft and the available population according to this schedule.

Draft level less than 400 % of population 12 personnel
Draft level 401-600 % of population 9 personnel
Draft level 601-800 % of the population 6 personnel
Draft level 801 % or more of the population 3 personnel

Each pacification phase the US player must determine the effects of the war on the Vietnamese people.

This is done province by province. Each province has a population between 12 and 45 points (with 210 for Saigon and Gia Dinh). Each point represents 15 000 - 20 000 people.
The population in a province will usually be divided between supporting the SVN and the NFL. Each pacification phase this can be subject to change.
A random 1-100 roll is made. The higher the roll the more population shifts towards SVN control. A lower roll indicates a shift towards NFL control.
The total amount of population available for SVN and NFL is the SVN/NFL total population and this determines how large of an army either side can draft. The development of the total population of each side can be viewed in the statistics window under pop.

6.1 Pacification table
Die roll Population shift
>1 -4
1-20 -3
21-30 -2
31-40 -1
41-50 0
51-70 +1
71-80 +2
81-90 +3
<91 +4

The random roll is subject to the following modifiers.
-5/10 If a capital in the province is enemy occupied (some provinces have several capitols).
-1 for each 90 power points of enemy forces in the province.
-1 /for each 120 power points of enemies in any cultivated hex, airfield, or town in the province (in addition to the above number so the same unit is counted twice if in a town or cultivated hex).
-5 if SVN morale is less than 70.
+5 if SVN morale is more than 140.
-1 For each 5% population less 50 % of the total population in control of SVN (max 10).
+1 for each 5% population more than 50 % of the total population in control of SVN (max 10).
+ 5 if the option Free World advantage is chosen.

Strategic Bombing

The US can perform strategic bombing of NVA cities in North Vietnam. Each city has 3 000 location points. If US bombing damages a city US morale declines by 1 per city damaged that month. At the same time SVN morale rise by 1 per damaged city + 50% chance of another point.

Politics in Southern Vietnam

There are five different political leaders in Southern Vietnam. Each one has a specific effect on South Vietnamese and US morale

Name SV Morale US morale Faction
Bao Dai -3 +1
Thiueu -3 0
Minh -1 0
Ky -2 0
Than +1 0

Each round there is a possibility of political unrest or a military coup taking place in South Vietnam. The default chance of that happening is 8 % for a military coup and 7 % for unrest

A military coup lowers SVN morale by 8 and Free world morale by 3.

Political unrest lowers SVN morale by 3 and Free world morale by 1. Political unrest also increases the chance of a coup or further political unrest happening by 1 % per time (until a coup actually occurs when it is reset to 0).

Finally political unrest and military coups increases the chance that ARVN units will become unavailable because of lack of readiness the round they occur.

The chance of a coup or political unrest is also influenced by SVN morale
SVN morale
Less than 70 +2% chance
70-119 +-0% chance
120 or more -2% chance.

The US can attempt to induce a Military Coup in South Vietnam. It does not cost anything to attempt and increases the chance of a coup happening to ca 50 %. Should a US supported coup attempt fail though it will mean a -3 decline in Free world morale.

Morale and commitment
Neither the US nor the powers backing North Vietnam was waging a total war. Both sides were limited in their commitment by what national morale would allow. This means that neither side may deploy units if doing so would increase the commitment of that side so that it is bigger than morale.

9.1 North Vietnamese morale is influenced by the following factors.
If US commitment is between
51-75 +3
76-100 +6
101-125 +9
126-150 +12
151-175 +15
176-200 +18
201-250 +21
251-300 +24
301-350 +27
351-400 +30
401+ +35

+ 20 % of new US commitment

If NVN morale is between
Less than 40 +5
41-70 +6
71-100 +7
101-150 +8
151-200 +9
201-300 +10
301-400 +11
401+ +12

9.2 US Morale is influenced by the following
Coup -3
Unrest -1
Bombing of the north -1/ city damaged during the month.

-1 for every third Regional or other capitol under enemy control.

If SVN controlled population is
480 or less -2
483-570 -1
573-720 0
723-810 +1
811+ +2
If US commitment is
100-150 -1
151-250 -2
251-375 -3
376+ -4
US new commitment
5-15 -1
16-25 -2
-1 for each additional 5 commitment that round

US invade
North Vietnam -7
Laos -2
Cambodia -2
SVN invade
North Vietnam -5
Laos -1
Cambodia -1

9.3 SVN morale is affected by the following
+1/bombed NV city that month (+50% chance of another +1)
+20% of new US commitment.
+ 1-3/+1 Economic Aid program.


Battle for I Corps
This scenario is 5 rounds long and played over the five provinces of Corps I area.

1. 1965-1975 the Battle for South VietnamThis scenario is the grand campaign. It starts in June 1965 and ends at the end of May 1975 (a total of 10 years, 40 seasons and 120 rounds).
The Free World player starts first. South Vietnam starts with 100 military supplies to build and deploy the ARVN army. ARVN units placed in the first round (only) can be placed in any hex in South Vietnam.
South Vietnamese morale is 65. Free world morale is 520 and commitment 25.
The US 3rd and 4th Marines and one Cruiser start at Da Nang. The US also have 21 air points and 3 replacement points in support. Naval blockade strength is 1.
The Communist player goes second and has 90 military supplies to build his PLAF guerilla force. The Ho Chi Minh trail starts with two effective NLF bases Tchepone and Saravaneh.
The communist player also gets to place one NVA division anywhere in North Vietnam or Laos. NVA morale starts at 10 and commitment at 0. The communist side has the ability to deploy 2 free companies each round and start with 4 replacement points..
Neither side can buy military supplies during the first seasonal interface. After the first round new US/ARVN forces can only be deployed in the designated reinforcement areas (marked with a port symbol).

The Communist side wins if SVN ever controls less than 450 in population or if communist side at any time capture and hold Saigon.
The Free world side wins if neither victory condition has been fulfilled by the start of June 1975.

< Message edited by Grymme -- 8/21/2011 8:34:03 PM >


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Post #: 33
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/25/2011 12:16:20 PM   


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From: The Bunny Ranch, NV
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Outstanding work!!! Keep it up.  One little thing that popped out at me though...

In the US airmobile battalion, it looks like the image you used for the UH1B is actually a Sikorsky H-5. When you get around to it, you might want to change that image.  Otherwise, most impressive mod I've ever seen for ATG!


_____________________________\ n. 1. Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful manner. 2. See United States Marine.

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 34
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/25/2011 12:24:52 PM   

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wow !

its like a completely new game


HHC 302nd Engineer Battalion
82nd Airborne Division
Honorably Discharged Jul/80

(in reply to Jarhead0331)
Post #: 35
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/26/2011 7:58:33 PM   


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Thanks for the encouragment

Jarhead: Will make a not of this and hopefully the final version will have the right chopper.

For those interested i have uploaded a small human vs human introductory scenario to my website. Its pretty far from the campaign game and the scenario itself is in betatesting. But for those who are interested in the conflict can check it out can download it there.

Here is the Briefing. The attached screenshot shows the Free World setup at the start of the game.



The Battle for I Corps scenario starts in March 1967 and lasts until the end of August 1967 (5,5 rounds because the Communist player starts and get a round before the Free World player can react).

The battleground is the five provinces in I Corps. Each side is fully deployed and start with 120 replacement points. The US has 60 air points, 2 cruisers and a carrier for support.

Da Nang is a USM base, Dong Hoi a NVA base and Tchepone an NLF base for this scenario.

The Free World will get some reinforcements in the form of 1st Cavalry Division HQ and 2nd Brigade arriving in Da Nang on the second full round.

Monsoonweather between march and june will result in a -50% modifier for air units.

Each side has an actioncard that lets you reinforce any existing units by expending an replacement point. Adding replacements to a unit sets that units AP to 0 so it cannot be used mor that round. Each side start with 120 replacement points. Remember that the number of replacement points affect the victory point count also.

The Communist side can place 2 small guerilla companies in any hex each round as reinforcements.


At the start of round 7 communist Victory Points are counted according to the following

+1 /city occupied at any end of a round
+3/ provincial capital occupied at any end of a round
+10/ Da Nang or Hue occupied at any end of a round
+ 1/ 100 power points killed
+1 /6 communist replacement points left
-1/ 200 power points lost
-1/8 free world replacement points left

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 8/26/2011 7:59:41 PM >


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Post #: 36
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/26/2011 8:14:12 PM   

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i did post your scenario work on the wargamer as there are some at g players and a lot of other gamers that are interested in the period.
i hope you don't mind

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Post #: 37
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/26/2011 8:22:17 PM   


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No problems Keunert. Altough i get a little embarrased that you called me a mastermind :/ It might blow up peoples expectations a little. But hey, any publicity is good publicity.

But just to be clear. The Battle scenario is in beta and the campaign scenario is not finished either.

EDIT. I also want to comment the discussion about donations on the Wargamers board. To be clear, its not about money. I also play poker. I typically make more money playing poker for a couple of hours than i have done in total on all of my scenarios for ATG. Its more of a principle thing. If i work a year or half a year on a scenario (and spend 1-200$ on books researching it) then id like to get some effort back. I feel appreciated. I tried at first just having a donate button and all scenarios downloadable. It didnt work. Had it worked i would do that instead.

< Message edited by Grymme -- 8/26/2011 8:32:49 PM >


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Post #: 38
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/26/2011 8:49:25 PM   

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my engrish isn't as präzis as my german. mastermind sounded fine in my ears.

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Post #: 39
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/26/2011 9:23:48 PM   


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Yep, sounds good to me too. It takes a dedicated and skilled mind to create scenarios like these. I don't come even close to creating things like that.

(in reply to Keunert)
Post #: 40
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 8/28/2011 5:48:59 PM   


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Josh & Keunert. No probs. Thanks for the compliments.

Just a short notice to say that i have uploaded a updated version of the Battle for the I Corps scenario to my website. The new version has a US AI scenario variant. It changes the production of the Free World side (because the computer wont use replacements) and also changes some other things. I would rate the AI players performance as beginner. Still, for those who want to play against the AI, here is a chance.


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Post #: 41
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/1/2011 9:21:12 PM   


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The scenario is really coming together nicely. I have added some chrome since the playtest started also. All things from the boardgame and they are adapted pretty faithfully.

Here is my revised list of things yet to do

- Mcnamara line
- Scenario briefing (currently 28 pages)
- AI Variant
- ARVN leaders
- Free Fire rules
- Fortifications
- Final Withdrawal event
- Rangers chance of intervening?
- Naval strategic transfer
- Augmenting units
- REDO Replacment points rules
- ARVN 175mm Artillery

And here are the rules for some of the things i have done (from the briefing).

5.3.1 Defensive Air Support

Each month 1 Air Support unit is produced (in the highest HQ closest to Saigon) for each existing air squadron. At the start of the campaign there will appear 21 air support SFTs in MACV HQ. These can then be transferred to and assigned different units all over the map. They move at 1AP/hex. Air Support has no value in attack at all but during the Communist round each Air support assigned a unit is roughly equivalent to two machinegun squads in defense. All Air support dissolves after attacking or defending and any unused air support will vanish at the end of the round. Instead there is again created 1 Air Support unit/Air Squadron.

This is done to simulate US air support having a very important defensive influence even during the opponents round.

6.1 ARVN Ranger Groups

The ARVN Rangers were specially trained and equipped. 55 battalions of Rangers operated out of small camps in the wilds. These were some of the most effective ARVN forces of all; they frequently supplemented both ARVN and US operations. The Rangers also patrolled South Vietnams borders interfering with NLF infiltration. (Rulebook: VG:s Vietnam p.18).

ARVN Rangers are recruited like normal units but there are several special rules for them. There can never exist more than 270 Ranger squads (five Ranger Groups with 50 Ranger Squads and 20 reserves) in play at any one time. Rangers can at any time be withdrawn from the map into the Ranger holding box (the black area in the sea next to Saigon). For each Ranger Group in play the Free World player can make one deployment and place a group of Rangers anywhere on the map.

Ranger Border patrols
If there are more than a full group of rangers in play they will patrol the border area. What this means in practice is that there is a chance depending on how many rangers are in play that the border hexes (the two hexes closest to the SVN national border) will revert to SVN control if unoccupied by enemy units.

Ranger Groups in play Chance of hex reverting to SVN control
1 (50-99 squads).........................................30%
2 (100-149)................................................35%
3 (150-199)................................................40%
4 (200-249)................................................45%
5 (250+)....................................................50%

This might sound unimportant but a hex reverting to SVN control has several advantages. First a SVN hex will provide some reconnaissance; secondly it takes 10 AP more for a communist unit to enter the hex and finally the communist side might have to garrison certain cities or they might revert to SVN control.

Attachment (1)


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Post #: 42
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/1/2011 9:22:18 PM   


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6.2 Regional and Popular forces

At its peak the Army of the Republic of South Vietnam (ARVN) had a nominal strength in excess of 600,000 men. More than half of these were essentially militia, living at or near their homes under the control of local administrators. These forces were used to garrison heavily populated areas, and to help repel NLF incursions. (Rulebook: VG:s Vietnam p.18).

Regional and Popular Force Battalions garrison all SVN controlled provincial capitals. These battalions cannot move or be transferred out from the capitol where they are placed. If forced to retreat out of the hex they are garrisoning they will disband at the end of the month. If damaged they will reappear at full strength at the start of each month provided the capitol in question is occupied by SVN.

Rf-Pf Battalions constitute at the beginning of the Communist players turn and are disbanded at the end of it so they are never visible during the Free World turn.

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< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/1/2011 9:23:33 PM >


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Post #: 43
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/8/2011 8:35:04 AM   


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Well, the grand campaign scenario is finished now actually. And its uploaded to my website. PW-protected. Available through donation. Pretty quick work if i may say so myself. Considering i estimated it would take a year. Its quite faithfull to the boardgame it is emulating but of course there are some differences. But its much more like the boardgame than other interpretations i have seen in my opinion.

Here is a direct link. Those interested in the scenario can check out the briefing in PDF. The briefing might read like its very complicated with lots of tables. But most of these calculations are off course done by the computer. The tables are there for the players who want to understand the mechanics of the scenario and master it.

The campaign scenario is human vs human only.

I have som thoughts about adding some more scenarios to this series. My plans include 2 shorter full map scenarios, a second campaign game and another smaller operational scenario. Theese would be

- The Fall of South Vietnam
- The 1972 Easter Offensive
- Another Campaign scenario starting before Tet offensive
- Warzone C: Operations Cedar Falls and Atterburough

I also have some thoughts about developing an AI variant with the AI playing the communist side.

If i succeed in doing all this they will off course be included. But i cannot guarantee anything.

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/8/2011 9:09:54 AM >


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Post #: 44
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/8/2011 9:27:08 AM   

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Good work.  This will be the one that will finally make me buy ATG.


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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/8/2011 2:18:16 PM   


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Good work.  This will be the one that will finally make me buy ATG.

You havnt bought it yet? Hey, you have missed a lot so far. The Vietnam scenario is great!!! Beside this there are other scenarios that try: World at War, European Theater of Operations and Fire in the East belong to the Top Ten as well. You will enjoy months of challenging pbems!

I am not a friend of the random gmes. It takes long to build up the armies and develop the tech levels to get more interesting units. At the start it is not easy to fight the AI in case you have few human players and much more AI nations. But it is a question of being outnumbered by AI production. If you manage to stabilize your position the AI will no longer be a serious opponent. So fighting against the other human players becomes more important. But I think a scenario like Global Domination is preferable. You might have several human players, start at a low technical level, but dont have to start at a primitive level, and you get the chance to make sonme diplomatic appointments about areas of interest and who will conquer which small AI nation and leave another one for the contract partner.

At least, there ar not only great scenarios already playable but there are announced others that look interesting as well. When I look at the maps Lion of Juda is creating it makes me curious to what he is developping. As this is only one example.

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Post #: 46
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/9/2011 2:06:09 AM   

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You are right.  Somehow I'm not too excited about the random games.  That's the reason why I haven't bought it yet.  I have the original AT but don't play it a lot.
But for the scenarios you mentioned, they are all overloaded with counters.  I believe this Vietnam scenario has a good balance or me.  Plus it's not a conventional war.


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Post #: 47
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/10/2011 6:51:28 PM   


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Well, i have uploaded the next small scenario in my Vietnam series to my website. Directly downloadable from there. I am a little apprehensive in posting these because they only show such a small side of the VG Vietnam system. But on the other hand they give some flavour.

Here is the briefing. If anyone wants to give this a try you can send me a PM. The scenario is only 6 rounds long. We will play it twice with each player alternating sides and then compare VPs.

Screenshot shows most of the playing area.

10.2 War Zone C: Operations Attleboro and Cedar Falls

To the northwest of Saigon lay the "Iron Triangle", a bastion of insurgency for more than 20 years. A series of operations beginning in late 1966 were initiated to clear the area of NLF bases. They were somewhat successful in disrupting VC operations, but as soon as the US forces left the NLF would return.

This is a small operational scenario detailing the fighting in 1966-67. The scenario begins in October 1966 and ends after March 1967. It is 6 rounds long. The play area includes Hau Nghia, Tayn Ninh, Phuoc Long, Binh Duong and Cambodia.

The scenario uses some action cards.

10.2.1 Special rules
During the first round the Free World side cannot attack effectively since it has a -100% attack modifier.

The Communist side will get some reinforcements in the form of the 5th Division HQ, 2 NLF Regiments, 5 Battalions and 2 Companies in December 1966.

It is not possible to invade Cambodia in this scenario.

The Free World side has access to 210 ranger Squads in this scenario.

10.2.2 Weather
Monsoon weather in March will result in a -50% modifier for air units. Also defensive air support will be halved for that month.

10.2.3 Replacements
Each side has an action card that lets you reinforce any existing units by expending an replacement point. Adding replacements to a unit sets that units AP to 0 so it cannot be used more that round. The Free World start with 28 replacement points and the Communist side with 35. Remember that the number of replacement points spent affect the victory point count also.

10.2.4 Victory
Victory conditions are calculated in the same way as in the Battle for I Corps scenario (10.1). In addition the Communist side loses 1 VP each round for each one of the four provinces that they have no units in.

10.2.5 Communist AI variantUsing this variant gives the AI 200PP to produce units and gives the NLF bases in Cambodia a 500% production bonus (they will produce 10K instead of 2K). This is to weigh up that the AI does not use replacements. It will receive VPs for not using them.

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< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/10/2011 7:00:21 PM >


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Post #: 48
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/12/2011 6:27:08 AM   


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I have started working on a scenario variant of the grand campaign where the AI can play the Communist side.

Its a massive undertaking because i basically want the AI to be able to follow as many of the boardgame rules as possible to conserve the interactive nature of the scenario.

I will also give it some advantages to make it competetive in the areas nesscessary.

If i get it to work correctly

The AI will
- Obey the rules of Commitment, Morale and Military supplies
- Upgrade the Ho Chi Minh trail itself buy paying for it with commitment
- Buy Military Supplies for NLF units using Sea Supply and Trail Supply based on what is best
- Buy Air defense Regiments when nescessary
- Use Military supplies to pay for and place NLF units in South Vietnam based on a priority list according to the four Corps areas.
- Use remaining commitment to purchase NVA units.
- Attack somewhat sensibly with priority given to provincial capitols.

Here is the code for determening if the Communist AI will invest in air defense. Chances of the AI wanting to invest in Air defense goes up if any of the North Vietnamese cities are damaged.

35) ' Ai builds air defense
36) CHECK: Gameslot_Season interface(#56) == 10
37) CHECK: CheckTurn == 1
38) SETVAR: TempVar18 = 25
39) CHECK: CheckStrucPtsXY(36, 1) < 3000
40) SETVAR: TempVar18 + 5
42) CHECK: CheckStrucPtsXY(34, 7) < 3000
43) SETVAR: TempVar18 + 5
45) CHECK: CheckStrucPtsXY(29, 3) < 3000
46) SETVAR: TempVar18 + 5
48) EXECUTE: ExecMessage(2, 1, 0, -1)
49) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < TempVar18
50) SETVAR: Gameslot_Difference(#185) = 0
51) SETVAR: Gameslot_Difference(#185) + Communist_Morale(#39)
52) SETVAR: Gameslot_Difference(#185) - Communist_Commitment(#40)
53) SETVAR: TempVar17 = Gameslot_Difference(#185)
54) CHECK: TempVar17 > 2
55) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(58, 34, 7, 1)
56) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(58, 34, 7, 1)
57) SETVAR: Communist_Commitment(#40) + 3


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Post #: 49
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/12/2011 7:29:51 AM   

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are you planning on doing the scenario " Fall of Saigon" now that would be a cool one indeed.....

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/12/2011 7:00:18 PM   


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Lion of Judah: I think you mean "The Fall of South Vietnam" and yes. its on the list.

There are 11 scenarios for the boardgame. I plan on creating six of those. The two campaign games, two full map short scenarios and the two small operational scenarios i have created.

I am currently working on the Communist AI and the second campaign scenario that starts just before the Tet offensive at the same time.

Probably not so interesting for the readers, but here is the AI coding for building military supplies.

It does not yet have the data input for how many percent of available commitment will be spent on supply. But otherwise it looks nice.

The AI takes into account the state of the Ho Chi Minh Trail and the state of the Naval blockade before deciding how many percent of the commitment will be shipped via the trail and how many will be shipped by sea.

EDIT: have added code for modifiying the % of supplies spent on military supplies depending on which year it is. The more commitment not spent on military supplies will instead be spent on NVA regulars. This code simulates the transformation of the war from an almost pure guerilla war to a conventional war mixed with guerilla warfare. At the start of the war roughly 60 % of available resources will be spent on guerilla warfare compared to 38 % after 1972

62) ' AI buying military supplies
63) CHECK: CheckTurn == 1
64) CHECK: CheckActionCard(1, 15) > 0
65) SETVAR: Gameslot_Difference(#185) = 0
66) SETVAR: Gameslot_Difference(#185) + Communist_Morale(#39)
67) SETVAR: Gameslot_Difference(#185) - Communist_Commitment(#40)
68) SETVAR: TempVar16 = Gameslot_Difference(#185)
69) SETVAR: TempVar17 = 27
70) SETVAR: TempVar18 = 35
71) ' influence by year
72) CHECK: CheckYear => 1967
73) SETVAR: TempVar17 - 2
74) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 2
76) CHECK: CheckYear => 1969
77) SETVAR: TempVar17 - 2
78) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 2
80) CHECK: CheckYear => 1971
81) SETVAR: TempVar17 - 3
82) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 3
84) CHECK: CheckYear => 1972
85) SETVAR: TempVar17 - 3
86) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 3
88) SETVAR: TempVar19 = Gameslot_Naval blockade(#62)
89) SETVAR: TempVar19 * 2
90) SETVAR: TempVar17 + TempVar19
91) SETVAR: TempVar18 - TempVar19
92) CHECK: CheckStrucPtsXY(23, 14) == 1000
93) CHECK: CheckHexOwner(23, 14) == 1
94) SETVAR: TempVar17 + 2
95) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 2
98) CHECK: CheckHexOwner(32, 23) == 1
99) CHECK: CheckStrucPtsXY(32, 23) == 1000
100) SETVAR: TempVar17 + 2
101) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 2
104) CHECK: CheckHexOwner(38, 34) == 1
105) CHECK: CheckStrucPtsXY(38, 34) == 1000
106) SETVAR: TempVar17 + 2
107) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 2
110) CHECK: CheckHexOwner(37, 49) == 1
111) CHECK: CheckStrucPtsXY(37, 49) == 1000
112) SETVAR: TempVar17 + 2
113) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 2
116) CHECK: CheckHexOwner(26, 63) == 1
117) CHECK: CheckStrucPtsXY(26, 63) == 1000
118) SETVAR: TempVar17 + 2
119) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 2
122) CHECK: CheckHexOwner(16, 74) == 1
123) CHECK: CheckStrucPtsXY(16, 74) == 1000
124) SETVAR: TempVar17 + 2
125) SETVAR: TempVar18 - 2
128) EXECUTE: ExecMessage(2, 1, 0, -1)
129) LOOPER: TempVar0 FROM 0 TO TempVar16
130) ' trail
131) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < TempVar17
132) EXECUTE: ExecPlayActionCard(1, 15)
134) ' sea
135) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < TempVar18
136) EXECUTE: ExecPlayActionCard(1, 73)
141) SETVAR: Gameslot_Military supplies at start of round(#190) = Communist_Supply(#43)

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/12/2011 8:22:27 PM >


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Post #: 51
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/19/2011 8:35:03 PM   


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A short update.

I am more or less finished with the AI variant for the campaign game. I am actually very proud of this AI variant. It will hopefully give anyone a run for their money and its probably the most advanced AI strategic script developed for any scenario.

For those nerdy designers.

Here is the AI making priorities for where to deploy more troops (but it is also in the placement of the events in itself).

0) SETVAR: TempVar1 = CheckPowerPointsInArea(9, 1, 0, 0)
1) SETVAR: TempVar2 = CheckPowerPointsInArea(9, 2, 0, 0)
2) SETVAR: TempVar3 = CheckPowerPointsInArea(9, 3, 0, 0)
3) SETVAR: TempVar4 = CheckPowerPointsInArea(9, 4, 0, 0)
4) SETVAR: TempVar11 = 3
5) SETVAR: TempVar12 = 3
6) SETVAR: TempVar13 = 3
7) SETVAR: TempVar14 = 3
8) CHECK: TempVar1 > TempVar2
9) SETVAR: TempVar11 + 1
11) CHECK: TempVar1 > TempVar3
12) SETVAR: TempVar11 + 1
14) CHECK: TempVar1 > TempVar4
15) SETVAR: TempVar11 + 1
17) CHECK: TempVar2 > TempVar1
18) SETVAR: TempVar12 + 1
20) CHECK: TempVar2 > TempVar3
21) SETVAR: TempVar12 + 1
23) CHECK: TempVar2 > TempVar4
24) SETVAR: TempVar12 + 1
26) CHECK: TempVar3 > TempVar1
27) SETVAR: TempVar13 + 1
29) CHECK: TempVar3 > TempVar2
30) SETVAR: TempVar13 + 1
32) CHECK: TempVar3 > TempVar4
33) SETVAR: TempVar13 + 1
35) CHECK: TempVar4 > TempVar1
36) SETVAR: TempVar14 + 1
38) CHECK: TempVar4 > TempVar2
39) SETVAR: TempVar14 + 1
41) CHECK: TempVar4 > TempVar3
42) SETVAR: TempVar14 + 1
44) SETVAR: Gameslot_Corps I priority(#186) = TempVar11
45) SETVAR: Gameslot_Corps II priority(#187) = TempVar12
46) SETVAR: Gameslot_Corps III Priority(#188) = TempVar13
47) SETVAR: Gameslot_Corps IV priority(#189) = TempVar14

And here is the coding for placing units in Corps IV area

0) ' Corps IV
1) CHECK: Gameslot_Communist AI(#91) == 1
2) SETVAR: TempVar102 = 50
3) CHECK: CheckRound == 1
4) SETVAR: TempVar102 = 100
6) SETVAR: TempVar100 = 100
7) SETVAR: TempVar101 = Gameslot_Military supplies at start of round(#190)
8) SETVAR: TempVar101 / 5
9) CHECK: CheckTurn == 1
10) CHECK: Gameslot_Season interface(#56) == 10
11) LOOPER: TempVar0 FROM 0 TO TempVar101
12) LOOPER: TempVar0 FROM 0 TO 33
13) LOOPER: TempVar1 FROM 0 TO CheckMapWidth
14) CHECK: CheckSlot(TempVar1, TempVar0, 5) == 4
15) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar1, TempVar0) != 1
16) CHECK: CheckLandscapeType(TempVar1, TempVar0) != 10
17) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < Gameslot_Corps I priority(#186)
18) CHECK: CheckSFTypeInXY(TempVar1, TempVar0, -1, 0) < 8
19) CHECK: TempVar100 > 10
20) CHECK: Communist_Supply(#43) > 16
21) CHECK: CheckRandomPercent < TempVar102
22) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(14, TempVar1, TempVar0, 1)
23) SETVAR: TempVar100 = 0
24) SETVAR: Communist_Supply(#43) - 8
28) CHECK: Communist_Supply(#43) > 2
29) EXECUTE: ExecAddUnit(12, TempVar1, TempVar0, 1)
30) SETVAR: Communist_Supply(#43) - 2


I am currently working on the fourth scenario in the sceries. The 1972 Easter Offensive scenario. Its a 7 rounds long all map scenario about the NVA offensive in the Tri--Thien area, the Central Highlands and the Iron Triangle. It will feature some NVA tanks and a lot of ARVN units fighing on their own.

The scenario will most likely come in two variants. One historical deployment variant and one free deployment variant.

The screenshot is taken from the scenario. Not the at start position though. The orange units are ARVN augmented units with better (US) equippment and better morale.

Attachment (1)


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Post #: 52
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/22/2011 7:05:49 PM   


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I was doing an internet search about an old board game called Vietnam by Victory games when I came upon this site. This sounds so impressive as I really liked that boardgame.

So in order to play this what base game do I need to buy to be able to get these scenarios? And I also noticed that some of them are per chage (which is not a problem). Basically, I'm wondering what I need to do to get this. Finally, I did look a little at your site and some say 2 players while others have an AI. Does this one require 2 players or can it be played solo? Specifically the grand campaign version.

Thanks so much for answering this and I'm hoping that this is what I'm looking for.

< Message edited by Goodmongo -- 9/22/2011 7:45:29 PM >

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Post #: 53
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/23/2011 7:13:22 AM   


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Hi Goodmongo

Basicly what you need is the computergame Advanced Tactics:Gold and the scenario bundle. The scenarios come together and the charge is pretty nominal. A couple of dollars/euros. There are three scenarios finished, as you might have seen on my website. I plan on doing 6 scenarios.

As for the grand campaign scenario. There is an AI variant with the AI playing the Communist side. So you could play the computer, but only if you play the Free World side. The AI will use the same rules as a human would when it comes to buying and placing units, upgrading the trail etc. It will then play the game using the normal rules for the computer game.

I have tried to emulate the boardgame as much as possible. But there are some things that did not make it and some things have been changed. The things that are not in the scenario at all are Free Fire, & the McNamara line and lower rank south vietnamese leaders. Also a couple of things are quite changed compared to the boardgame.

But the heart of the system with pacification, population, commitment, morale and military supplies are there with pretty much the same values as in the boardgame.

Also if you do play computer games i think that Advanced Tactics is a must buy anyway. There are something like 200 scenarios for the game. Including adoptions or scenarios similar to  some other boardgames. You can see a list of some of the scenarios available here

< Message edited by Grymme -- 9/23/2011 7:16:13 AM >


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Post #: 54
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/23/2011 4:45:36 PM   


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Grymme thanks for the response.  I'm curious how you handled the Free Fire for a zone since the US firepower is at full strength but at a much higher morale cost if I recall correctly.  I'm not too worried about the McNamara line and the lower rank leaders can be handled through combat stats for the units.

I am interested in knowing what other things were changed substantially.

Finally, I'll send an email asking for more specific details on how to donate and obtain the files.  But once again thanks for doing this it sounds really cool.

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Post #: 55
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/25/2011 3:21:54 PM   


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For anyone ever conteplating the genra of Vietnam all I can say is that this is a GREAT GAME!!!!!! It really does capture the original and more importantly the feel for the actual war. As the US you win the battles but the VC just keep comming. Population shifts ever so slow. And your morale has such downward pressure that its very hard to keep it up and still maintain a decent enough troop level. It can be done but it is not a rollover.

I did have a CTD or crash to desktop. It only happened once so far and might have been because I treied to do something that you shouldn’t and it might have been the base game anyway.

I noticed a province report bug in my first try at the scenario. The province bug has not reappeared so for in my second game. On the seasonal report it shows each Corps area and then lists the provinces under them. For 4 or 5 of the provinces it would show the first number (population controlled) as higher than the total population, which is th second number.

Reinforcements seem to require that you select the unit for reinforcement in the game and card windows. However, a potential bug is that I selected an air unit and that was reinforced and now has infantry with it. Technically, you should not be even allowed to do this. I forgot that you should only reinforce infantry units.

Is it possible to transfer air units to another air unit? I see a potential cheat where I spend 1 commitment for three air planes. It takes damage and goes down to one plane. I withdraw it and get 1 commitment back.

What are the production points good for in the game? If you can build units doesn’t this go against the whole morale/commitment aspect? Is it possible to turn of PP entirely or reduce it to say one? I guess I'm not sure of why PP is needed.

And I noticed that the MACV HQ keeps getting units, especially 175mm artillery. It has like 21 of these and this makes it an God like unit and throws the game off balance. I’m sure the NVA side also has one.

But the bottom line is this scenario is GREAT. No other game or scenario has ever come this close to capturing what many say is the best boardgame ever produced on the subject.

Now if it is ever possible to get a Free World AI, that would be icing on the cake.

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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/26/2011 9:06:04 AM   


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Hi Goodmongo, i will try to answer all your questions.

I think that the crash to desktop might be because Vic (the AT:G designer) accidentaly gave me a hotfixversion of the game with the bugprotectionsystem turned off. This will hopefully be fixed in the next update of AT:G.

As for the provincebug it would be helpfull if you can see which provinces it was and if the maplabels matched the false reports.

The withdrawing of units is counted on number of SFTs, not per unit so actually the Airunits are disfavoured when it comes to getting your commitment back by withdrawing them. But you get more from withdrawing HQs. Hopefully it all evens out, but only extensive play will tell.

The designer reason why there is some production in the scenario is the following. In the boardgame 1 replacement point can be used on any unit wether it be infantry, tanks, rangers etc. In the computergame it cannot work that way. So it would be nescessary to have like 15 different replacement cards and it still wouldnt work as smooth as in the boardgame. I still wanted to keep the replacement mechanic since i liked the idea of reinforcing units on the spot. The sollution was to have one type (actually 2) of replacements for each side. Both basic infantry replacement. But that left the question what to do when an artillery, tank or airmobile unit gets damaged. That is what the production is mainly for. Producing replacements for all the other types of units not covered by the replacement system. And riverine points and airmobile points as well. And the productionsystem (The US) is actually paid for by expending replacement points.

The Units the MACV is getting are actually the production from the production locations (see above).It is default set to produce artillery but can be changed to anything in the production screen (and it is the only way of replacing artillery, tanks, helicopters and AFV short of bringing in new units). you can also set the reinforcements to arrive to another HQ. The ARVN GHQ also gets some reinforcementsw from Saigon and Vung Tao.

Hope you keep on enjoying the scenarioa and that you try out some other ATG scenarios as well. Have you seen the AT scenariobank?


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RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/26/2011 3:58:18 PM   


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Hey Grymme, thanks for claering up the PP question.  Here are some more bugs, potential bugs and other questions.

During some of the seasonal timeperiods the cards to select US divisions, brigades and battalions do not appear.  They usually appear the next season but they should be available each seasonal transition phase.

Often the first card is hidden once you pick the US division or US brigade. Clicking on it shows the division but on the left side it's hidden behind the "select US Division" card.

I landed the 4th Marine Division in DaNang and proceeded to use its artillery on some VC in the next hex.  This was strictly an artillery bombardment.  After defeating the VC I started to move the units there and the HQ's (artillery) were gone.  They did not reappear the next turn and simply disappeared as they were not destroyed.

Potential Bugs:
The card says that I should get 1 commitment point returned for the withdrawl of the heavy cruiser.  I tried this 4 times and no commitment was returned. I know it's a percentage of SFT's but shouldn't the cruiser be 100 SFT's then? Or adjust the card maybe?

There is supposed to be a free Rf-Pf batallion produced in every unoccupied provincial capital.  However, I noticed that on more than one occassion the VC simply moved into the capital without me seeing the AI turn battle like I do for other fights.  I think this tends to happen on capitals that were VC but recaptured.

I checked the detailed reports but the seasonal interface still only showed 4 pages of data.  Not sure if the report is somewhere else or not.

I have NOT encountered the province population issue again.  BTW that happened a turn before the CTD so maybe the game got hosed somehow and both were related.

The playing card for augmented ARVN units show the same supply costs as the non-augmented units.  I forgot to check to see if the actual cost is more and only the playing card is outdated.

Question/Observation/Working As Designed?:
I bomb the NLF bases on the Ho Chi Minn trail each round and reduce it to zero for each location.  They always seem to return to full the next round and I don't see what if any results I'm getting.  It doesn't appear to stop the creation of VC units or the movement of NVA units.  Is it that the bombing only knocks out the 1K in PP's?  Are there other impacts?  Is it even worthwhile to do?

I will read the game manual to get details about PP's but can you give a brief desciption of them in this scenario?  I see that a 175mm artillery plus some other stuff is produced each turn.  Where can I see the costs for each type of item produced? Can I change what is produced?

There are 30 PP's on the top line and these seem to only change if I create a HQ or unit. How does the 5K for each US base impact this?

It seems like there is no restriction on where the VC can deploy units.  This may only be due to the map and appearances and not an issue at all.  But so far it doesn't look like any region is or hex is out of reach.

Can you explain the HQ distance relationship with the units.  I see lower capability but is this due to the ARVN unit losing readiness due to political stability or is it due to HQ range.  How can I tell the difference?

Speaking of readiness the orginal game had the whole division locked out and you couldn't even move it. I noticed that some units of the division had limited AP's and strength but not all. Is this a AT game restriction?

Are there any negative modifiers to NVA morale besides the one time withdrawl of Free World units (-20)? What happens if NVA commitment is higher than morale?

The manual descibes the NLF draft but doesn't mention the ARVN relationship of population to draft.  I assume that you can build units up to the point where your draft equals the contraolled popluation but can you confirm this. What is the relationship limit and what happens if the draft level exceeds controlled population?  Does a high ARVN draft lower SVN morale?

Can you build replacement B52's with PP's?

Can you show the impact of the SVN leader somewhere?  It would help me determine if I need to stage a coup if I get a complete loser type like Thieu.

I guess that's it for now.  I did look at the ATG scenario bank but it seems most are PBEM games and I'm more into games vs. AI at the moment.  As for your Vietnam scenario I'm really enjoying it.  I have yet to complete an actual game (140 turns takes a long time), but have gotten to late 1968.

I forgot to mention that the AI does build AA units but they aren't placed on the NLF bases.

Also, for augmented ARVN units I know that they have higher morale and less of a chance to lose readiness. They also may have upgraded equipment. But my question is if they actually end up with better combat stats based on the upgraded equipment. How does the scenario treat the differnet equipment? Or is that for flavor? Is a M-48 stronger than a PT-76 for instance?

< Message edited by Goodmongo -- 9/26/2011 6:07:18 PM >

(in reply to Grymme)
Post #: 58
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/26/2011 8:51:41 PM   


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That is a lot of questions. I will see what i can answer.

1) This first issue i do not understand. I tried all the Division and Brigade cards and they always returned the card. But you do not get the play Division/Brigade/Batalion card back until you have actually played a division. Maybe if you can specify which card and which season.

2) Do you have a savegame or something with the dissapearing artillery. Never heard of this happening.

3) The Cruiser not getting commitment back is related to the cruiser not being able to bombard 2 hexes. It should be fixed in the new version (218b) i have uploaded now. The file is just called 218b. It also has some other changes i will detail later.

4) Have tested the RF-PF battalion thing and they seem come back even if its a hex recaptured. Can you provide a savegame where i can reproduce it.

4) Good catch. The detail report thing is fixed in v218.

5) have updated the desriptions of the ARVN action cards to include augmented units in v218.

6) Bombing a base on the Ho Chi Minh trail has 2 effects. It reduces the production (as you noted). But it also affects the number of military supplies that the Communist side get for each commitment spent. The AI spends military supplies before it gets a chance to repair its bases so it should have some effect. Se the manual chapter 2.5 for details.

7) You can see the production costs in the production screen (a small factory). But this is more of an issue to learn how to play AT:G so you might have to go to the ATG manual for this.

8) Those are Political Points, not production points. You do get some at start. They have no relation to production points or the bases. The use of those is also something more to learn in ATG.

9) There are some restrictions, although not exactly the same and smaller restrictions than in the boardgame. Se manual section 4.6

10) HQ Range etc. It can be a number of factors. Readiness, HQ range, morale, experience etc. You have to go to the ATG manual for this.

11) The whole division locked out thing. Have to have a closer description to understand this.

12) No (as per the boardgame), and nothing happens. But everything the Communist side does cost commitment so he will not be able to do anything until morale goes above morale again.

13) Yes the ARVN can build units up to the population but not beyond. It is mentioned in the briefing 4.1 and 4.6 but maybe not clear enough. Raising the draft doesnt affect SVN morale (as per the boardgame) but once the draft reaches the population you cannot create more ARVN units.

14) You can build helicopters with production but no aircraft. See the production screen for which units can be produced in a location.

15) The leader is displayed in the leader screen. But the impact of the leader can be read in the manual. Section 4.2. And Yes Thieu is the worst one.

16) The upgraded equipment makes a big difference if you check the combat stats of the different units. For example the Patton is a medium tank but the Walker is a light tank with much higher hitpoints and damagepoints. An M48 is much stronger than a PT-76.


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(in reply to Goodmongo)
Post #: 59
RE: Victory Games Vietnam - 9/26/2011 9:14:40 PM   


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I want to review the effectiveness pecentages that you use for the ARVN units.  I know it's based on the 2 star and one star generals and their effectiveness from the orignal game.  Here is a recap of the game for those following along.

There is a 2 star general assigned to each corps area and one for chief of staff.  The other two are assigned to naval and air forces but these never impacted ground unit effectiveness.  In the game a die is rolled and if the effectivness + 3 is lower than the die roll the two star general is ineffective and all independent units in his area are ineffective.  Of course in your game this doesn't apply as the units are all assigned to something and we are given the capability to change HQ assignements.

For divisional effectiveness the division leaders effectiveness rating is added to the corps commanders and compared to the same die roll from above.  Again if less the entire division is ineffective.

The chief of staff controls the Saigon area and the Para and Marine divisions where ever they are.

In the game the US can try to change leaders and this impacts their loyalty.  And there is also the complexity of leaders being in different factions.  In this scenario basically none of the above is possible.  I figured you looked at this in comming up with the effectiveness numbers.

If you look at it from a macro level you will have a certain percentage chance for a unit to be ineffective.  The game also did not have any rules against you placing all your HQ's in a great corps area and the actual combat units scattered all over the map.  It was a gimmick that the rules never forbade.

But on a macro level if the units are scattered around you can arrive at what percentage of the units were ineffective as a grand total.  In the game there are 20 one star generals and 15 two star generals.  The range on one star generals is +7 down to -3 with an average of 2.05.  For two star generals the range is +4 to -3 with an average of .6.  There are a maximum of 13 ARVN divisions and 7 spots for two star generals.  This means 7 counters not used for one star and 8 for two star leaders.

Now if we round the numbers to the next closest interger this means that for the two star generals a roll of 4 or less ressults in an effective general.  For the one star generals a roll of 3 or less results in an effective general and division.  Of course the game also applied some modifiers that impacted the dice rolls.

But having played the game it isn't this simple.  See the median is actually 3 for one star generals while staying at 1 for two star generals.  This combined with an average dice roll of 3.5 results in 66% of the combat units being effective.  Basically these are the numbers you can expect at the start of a game based on random leader picks.  However, the game allowed you to change leaders if their loyalty was low enough or you rolled good dice.  Which implies over time your units actually end up with better results except for the coup or instability turns. 

I know you tried to balance these out and your numbers increase for coup or instability turns.  But I think your numbers are a little low.  Your marine units per the manual never are subject to lower readiness and for normal units they are 7/15/30% chance of low readiness.  I would increase these to a much higher rate and make all units subject to the check.  I would use 15/25/50% chance for it to fail.

I would also change it to losing all AP's and not readiness.  In the game the units still fought on defense at full capability.  They were greatly restriced in movement.  You could only use strategic movement and you couldn't cross a corps or national border and must end up in a city/town/cultivated hex.

In the orginal game you had work arounds for bad leaders.  A bad divisional leader with 13 loyalty (meaning you never get rid of him) was placed in a bad corps leader area if you ahd the chance and was used as a static defense.  A bad corps leader that you couldn't replace ended up with you moving out all ARVN units as soon as possible.  You then used US troops in that corps as the primary force.  You might have been thinking about this strategy for picking your numbers.

As mentioned I'm also not sure why you picked readiness.  Being ineffective meant not being able to conduct offensive operations.  The VC could move at free will but it was still rare for them to do any attacks.  Now this might just be a tradeoff on your part but I'm curious on your thoughts.

(in reply to Goodmongo)
Post #: 60
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