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RE: Our game - 6/18/2011 4:46:25 PM   
Nemo121


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No, I merely think it highlights a certain double-standard in allowed behaviour. If you have a problem with it being highlighted then I suggest you focus on getting people not to post racist abuse in the first place rather than focusing on those who highlight its unacceptability.

As I said though, double standards.



< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/18/2011 4:47:41 PM >


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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
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Post #: 31
RE: Our game - 6/18/2011 4:53:27 PM   
USS America


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Not a part of any solution.  Only a part of continuing the problems.  

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Post #: 32
RE: Our game - 6/18/2011 4:55:55 PM   
Nemo121


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LOL! You know USS America. I wish you'd be as quick to post to disagree with racist and bullying posts on the forum.... as you are to attack those who oppose them.

It is sad but this forum proves that the sorts of people who opposed desegregation in the 60s and pogroms throughout history are still alive and well... We really haven't evolved far at all.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/18/2011 5:05:08 PM >


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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 33
RE: Our game - 6/18/2011 7:19:31 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17377
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From: Twin Cities, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
It is sad but this forum proves that the sorts of people who opposed desegregation in the 60s and pogroms throughout history are still alive and well... We really haven't evolved far at all.

Not really, Nemo121. Two very, very, very different topics. Because this forum is rarely patrolled by mods and even more rarely enforced has no bearing whatever to pogroms throughout history, for goodness sake. I appreciate your concerns and your point and have no problem with your sigline saying whatever you like, but let's not reach for polemics and hyperbole just yet, shall we?

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Post #: 34
RE: Our game - 6/18/2011 10:41:43 PM   
Nemo121


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Well Chickenboy, all human existence is on a spectrum, especially when we talk about the pscyhology of humans.

When I assess someone to see if they are a psychopath I ask them about whether they ever tortured animals as a kid? Why? Simple, if you don't have empathy for an animal ( especially an antropomorphisable one ) as a child then it is quite likely that you are the sort of person who won't have empathy for humans either as an adult. So, how we behave in small ways often points to how we behave in larger ways.

More specifically in terms of psychological studies carrier out to explain groupthink and ostracisation/pogroms and how cults develop there is clear evidence that individuals who either don't recognise that a small piece of bullying or racism is wrong or recognise it is wrong but choose to stay silent are quite likely to either not recognise larger pieces of racism/bullying aren't wrong ( either they are psychopaths are so caught into groupthink that their morality is subsumed into the group's purpose - which in the case of these groups is usually a perverted survival instinct being acted out through externalisation and being projected as a need to attack "the other" ) OR recognise they are wrong but value being part of the group enough/fear being cast out enough to keep quiet. In this way research has shown that if you do a small thing a person should know is wrong their reaction quite strongly predicts their reaction to a much larger wrong.

So, don't kid yourself, someone who stands idly by while watching someone get bullied on the internet is highly probably to stand idly by while others are being even more violated in real life ( such as racism and pogroms). I amn't aware of specific research regarding reactions to bullying on the internet being compared with severe assaults in real life but the research is there for the reaction to minor bullying in real life predicting reaction to much greater wrongs.

So, hyperbole and polemics? No. Just research you obviously weren't aware of.

Also to say that the lack of enforcement here leading to ever more aggressive behaviour having no bearing whatsoever on bullying shows a lack of knowledge of human psychology. I suggest you read a precis of the Stanford experiment and the Millgram Experiments. You might also find some reading around The Third Wave interesting. Pogroms are all about group think, people choosing to subsume themselves to the group and abandoning their own moral compass in order to gain the protection of the group/avoid being ostracised by the group. I'll include the Wikipedia links for you below should you choose to read them. There are far more experiments which support these but these three are the most culturally known and thus the place to begin your reading. In short though, in small things you CAN see how people will behave in larger things. If we ALL lived in a country where some fascist ideology rose I believe most of the forum members would recapitulate their forum roles. Why? That's the way people are. In small things you see how they behave in large things.

People here aren't necessarily bad or evil. They're just human and humans have a huge capacity for forming groups which, in order to fulfill the group goal of survival identify other individuals or groups as " the other" and thereby justify violence ( physical and verbal ) against those groups/individuals in the name of "protecting" the group. Hitler understood this and formulated a doctrine based just on this understanding in Mein Kampf in which he said that to make a struggle understandable to the masses you needed to have a clear problem, a clear groups causing the problem and a clear solution. If you had those 3 things you could get people to follow you. People did, to infamy and disaster. Humans haven't changed and the same dynamics would work now. People are always looking for a charismatic leader to identify a problem, give them a clear cause ( often a group causing the problem - illegal immigrants, muslims, democrats, republicans, foreigners etc etc ) and a clear solution to that problem. You can see that dynamic play out in the news every day of the week --- and also here on the forum.

The Stanford Experiment
Millgram Experiment
The Third Wave

If you're interested I'd suggest reading anything by Bion about group dynamics to learn about group goals and why the group can often externalise a need to survive into a need to attack/exterminate others.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/18/2011 10:44:20 PM >


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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 35
RE: Our game - 6/18/2011 11:14:17 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 17377
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From: Twin Cities, MN
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
So, hyperbole and polemics? No. Just research you obviously weren't aware of.

I guess you're right. Thank goodness you identified the closet brutes, bullies and fascists here. I think you may have single-handedly fended off an online genocide. By not immediately diving into the fracas and just butting out of an irritating conversation, I must be guilty as well. Thank you for policing these boards and shaking us to our moral foundations, Nemo. You're a real hero.

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Post #: 36
RE: Our game - 6/18/2011 11:29:27 PM   
Nemo121


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Chickenboy, that's not what I said.

I cannot however stop you twisting what I said if you wish.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/19/2011 12:24:06 AM >


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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 37
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 12:01:39 AM   
Terminus


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Take a pill and stop being so high-and-mighty...

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Post #: 38
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 12:16:05 AM   
Nemo121


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LOL! Terminus. Pointing out a double-standard isn't being high and mighty, it is just pointing out a double standard.

Of course it is much easier to just cast names about than it is to actually deal with the substantive issue- that bullying, abusive language and racist posting is occurring in this forum with impunity.

I'm curious did you feel the racism and bullying were OK or did you just not care enough to post? I find your reticence then compared to your willingness to post now an interesting dichotomy.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/19/2011 12:22:31 AM >


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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 39
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 8:06:08 AM   
Panzerjaeger Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Take a pill and stop being so high-and-mighty...


Look whos talking...

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Post #: 40
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 5:48:19 PM   
JWE

 

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Woof ! Always wanted to have a nanny. And a nanny that was that much immersed into their personal politics would have seriously floated my boat. Hmmm, we could have had some wonderful colloquies. Where was Nemo when I was 14 ? Gosh ! And I really needed some caring and sharing to help me through those mescaline afternoons. Ah, but maybe that's not the point of their exercise.

Linda,

If you want to have a game, one of the gals on the Babes Team is willing. Jenny Nelson is pretty darn good. Girl-on-girl might make a very fun AAR thread.

Don't care what your rules are. You pick, she plays. But you really ought to be righteous and honest about this.

Send pm with your email if you are game. It will be kept confidential.

< Message edited by JWE -- 6/19/2011 5:55:25 PM >


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Post #: 41
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 6:27:09 PM   
Erkki

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Woof ! Always wanted to have a nanny. And a nanny that was that much immersed into their personal politics would have seriously floated my boat. Hmmm, we could have had some wonderful colloquies. Where was Nemo when I was 14 ? Gosh ! And I really needed some caring and sharing to help me through those mescaline afternoons. Ah, but maybe that's not the point of their exercise.

Linda,

If you want to have a game, one of the gals on the Babes Team is willing. Jenny Nelson is pretty darn good. Girl-on-girl might make a very fun AAR thread.

Don't care what your rules are. You pick, she plays. But you really ought to be righteous and honest about this.

Send pm with your email if you are game. It will be kept confidential.



Its Helmut. He didnt even understand to change to a new e-mail address...

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Post #: 42
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 7:00:35 PM   
Nemo121


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JWE,

The point is simple. To point out a double standard in forum moderation. I find it interesting that you, like Terminus, are able to attack people who argue against such comments but don't chastise the person making racist and abusive posts.

As to personal politics.... Well, I would hope that it would be universal to oppose people engaging in bullying and racist posts and/or speech.... Why are you able to find the time to attack me but not the people making those posts? Is it that you agree with them or just that you don't care enough to say anything?

As to why I say something: Simple, I believe Niemoeller's poem touches an important truth and that it is something we should learn from...

quote:

First they came for the communists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left to speak out for me.


< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/19/2011 7:03:38 PM >


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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 43
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 7:59:51 PM   
JWE

 

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Was talking to Linda. Gosh, there must be a lot of insecurity in the air if people have to quote pretentiously bad poetry every time they feel put upon.

Do you want to play Jenny?

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Post #: 44
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 8:21:22 PM   
Nemo121


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Thankfully the curators at Yad Vashem aren't as nekulturny as you JWE.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/19/2011 8:23:00 PM >


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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 45
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 8:26:35 PM   
JWE

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
Thankfully the curators at Yad Vashem aren't as nekulturny as you JWE.

Tkankfully, they aren't. I've always been a bit too much of a neo-cryptic Budhist, when I wasn't an Acquinan Jesuit, for the Rabbinical Council. But my local rebe always thought that I would make a darn good jew. Go figure.

btw, I love your sig. I know it's fake and you doctored it for your own purposes, but it's still fun. It does make people look. And once they look they do tend to ask questions and make up their own minds. Thanks for sparking their interest.

Ciao. JWE

< Message edited by JWE -- 6/19/2011 8:47:10 PM >


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Post #: 46
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 9:11:59 PM   
Nemo121


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JWE, you are a liar and, if you were any sort of man you'd be ashamed of yourself for your last post.

quote:

i am tired of all you euro nazis and wish you you would all just go away or shoot yourselves or at least do something useful with your useless little PC lives.


That's the quote copied directly from the thread linked below....

Here's the link

No doctoring. I quoted what was there. Honestly, simply making things up is unfair and uncouth and marks out the level of man you are.

Again though, let me ask you the question YOU are dodging. Do you agree with his abusive comments or do you just not care about them? There is a strong double standard between your ability to make up lies about me ( for which any decent man would apologise ) and your ability to ignore bullying and abuse on the part of your colleague.


As to people asking you questions: Well if the above lies are anything to go by I have no doubts they'll get a story very favourable to the Da Babes Team members involved. It is easy to whitewash yourself when you lie.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/19/2011 9:20:08 PM >


_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 47
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 9:22:32 PM   
FatR

 

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It's nice that you've decided to self-destruct so rapidly, Nemo.

quote:

It is easy to whitewash yourself when you lie.

Of course, we have you to provide an example of that.

< Message edited by FatR -- 6/19/2011 9:24:46 PM >

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Post #: 48
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 9:25:38 PM   
Panzerjaeger Hortlund


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JWE is probably having some sort of real-life crisis, and that spills over into extreme agression, hostility and general asshole-ness in the forum. Ive seen that happen in other forums with other long time users who were respected, but then for whatever reason decided to kamikaze their forum standing, credibility and respect into a burning wreck. Terminus also strikes me as one of those guys. Lots of real-life frustration being vented I suppose. Usually I tend to ignore it, but somewhere there is a line.

Usually there are moderators around to keep people in line, but some people are above the law when it comes to moderating. Nothing strange with that, I was one of those untouchables in another forum a long time ago. Problem is that it creates such a hostile environment and childish "sandbox mentality" which screws up any sort of productive climate for discussion. Like JWE is displaying time and time again in the scen&mod forum.

Ive been here a long time, but I havent seen such hostility since some of the more infamous 9-11 threads in the art of wargaming forum. Those of you who were there know what I mean.

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The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 49
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 9:28:20 PM   
Nemo121


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FatR,

Cast your stones as you wish. Your opinion would be worth more if you hadn't publicly admitted to destroying others' games by breaching FOW. That marks your level, against which your comments are judged.

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John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 50
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 9:33:14 PM   
Nemo121


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PH,

Aye, we all have real life issues and I know Terminus may just be pissed due to his real world job situation but, really, it is one thing to be annoyed, it is another thing entirely to just make stuff up which you know to be untrue... It just amazes me how people can belittle abuse and ignore it as though it is fine to see people bullied without saying anything. FatR is just jumping in to get a few kicks in. That's a separate thing which has to do with his own personal dynamics.

It appears Matrix Games doesn't wish to annoy the Da Babes Team and so is happy to allow them free rein in posting. The end result of that though will be that this forum goes the same way TakeTwo went or Battlefront went about 5 years ago. They became bywords for intolerance and that ended up hurting the company's sales as they got a very bad rep within the wargamer community online.

I think I may have to rethink my "all discussion is good" policy and rethink my general no green button stance. The weird thing is these guys would probably all spout the usual "freedom of speech" stuff when eulogising soldiers and yet in their real lives they basically piss over what those soldiers died to secure.

Anyways, it is clear nothing will be gained here. I'm just getting drawn into responding to provocations which have less and less to do with the original issue and more and more to do with just provoking me to do or say something bannable.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/19/2011 10:07:53 PM >


_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 51
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 9:55:52 PM   
JWE

 

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Holy cow. Think you need to start a "I hate JWE" or or "I hate Babes" or "I hate anybody who knows more than me" or "I hate anybody who' knows I'm pretentious" thread all your own self. You will get a gazillion hits. And we will get a gazillion laughs. In the meantime, all you are doing is making yourself look silly.

This is a thread for Linda. Does Linda want to play?

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RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 9:59:57 PM   
ckammp

 

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These personal attacks are really going too far.

Please remember, this is the Opponents Wanted forum, and many people new to AE post here. Do any of you think Matrix Games wants to see an AE dev and his supporters having a pissing contest with a long-time forum contributor and his supporters in this forum?

Furthermore, IMHO, all of you are valuable contributors to AE and this forum; were any of you to be banned as a result of this thread, it would be a big loss.

So please, can all of you just walk away from this now?

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 53
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 10:07:24 PM   
Nemo121


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JWE,

All I see in your last post is your failure to retract a clear lie. AND your failure to deal with the question I asked you.... Do you agree with what Osterhaut posted and thus don't oppose it OR do you disagree but just think it is fine to leave abuse and bullying unchallenged?


Very simple JWE,

1. Do you retract your lie? Another clear breach of forum rules by you.... not that matrixgames will do anything about it, of course.

2. Why were you silent on Osterhaut's racist, abusive bullying? Either you support it or you just don't care when people bully others.

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/19/2011 10:10:13 PM >


_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

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Post #: 54
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 10:13:51 PM   
Nemo121


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ckammp,

Personally I think it might serve people thinking of joining our group very well to see that people supported by matrixgames will have free rein to verbally abuse and bully them, create lies about them and never fear ANY sanction from forum moderators.

The forum is part and parcel of playing the game for a lot of AE players. If they play and say something JWE or Terminus or Osterhaut doesn't like then they are likely to be abused. If they ask the moderators to intervene they are likely to be ignored. I've had several people message me in recent days stating they don't post to the forum anymore because of attacks by JWE or Terminus or others. I think new people joining might want to take that possibility into account before joining.

If Matrixgames didn't want this to happen then ALL they had to do was apply the forum rules when a member of the DaBabes Team engaged in racism, abuse and bullying in clear breach of 2 of the 5 rules we all sign up to when registering. They didn't so I put one example in my sig. Terminus decided to kick things off in this thread. Why? Well, obviously my quoting the post bothers him more than the original post did.


Personally I find it amazing that JWE accused me of modifying a quote which can be proven not to be modified and yet still refuses to admit he either lied or made a mistake. That is a real sign of just how untouchable some of the developers feel they are in terms of feeling free to attack whoever they wish, whenever they wish. As to JWE.... Within the last 2 or 3 days I've publicly defended him when BuckBeach went too far. I'm not interested in a fight with him. I'm interested in all sides opposing bullying and abuse.

With that said I think any man who lies about someone else and doesn't apologise doesn't need me to say how low he is. His own lack of apology condemns him. We all make mistakes ( I've said things in the heat of the moment on the forum I've had to apologise for afterwards as they were uncalled for ) but good men apologise for theirs. They don't stick to the lie when it is clearly shown to be false.


Just to clarify:
This all began when they began bullying El Cid and being abusive to him. I happen to actually agree with them that he is misrepresenting his influence and the impact he had. So their basic points are reasonably valid. On the other hand you can say that reasonably or you can be abusive. They were abusing him. Someone defended him ( not me ) and Osterhaut responded with a call to all the euronazis to go and shoot themselves. I felt that this was beyond the pale and objected to that. Now, of course, as the outsider on whom the group can project their own fears and angers I'm targetted for attack - due to the same dynamics which drove the attacks on El Cid and BuckBeach.

Bottom line though, I only ever objected to the abusive manner in which they said what they said. Their underlying points were, I thought, quite valid. This thread, it seems, is what happens when you try to point out double standards.

I'm no moral guardian nor would I hold myself up as one. I've lost my temper on forums in the past many a time. I've said things which when I thought about it later I decided I should apologise for. I've made mistakes. I'm not judge, jury and executioner. I just promised myself some years ago I wouldn't be someone who stood by when an accident happened or when I saw someone being bullied. I stop at every accident I come across and if I see someone being bullied I step in. It isn't some huge morale crusade its just a promise I made to myself years ago which I try to be true to. I just wanted to explain why I've done what I've done - this time and previous times... and probably will again though it'd be much easier not to ;-).

< Message edited by Nemo121 -- 6/19/2011 11:06:47 PM >


_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 55
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 10:28:09 PM   
JWE

 

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Oof. Hok a chainik. But then a bris is a good thing. The ladies love it. The Council wanted me to give one to Chuck Norris, but he cut the knife instead. Oy, trying to shep naches with that boy makes me plotz.




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 56
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 10:34:07 PM   
Nemo121


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JWE,

Again all I see in your last post is no apology, no retraction of the lie and another bit of dodging a direct question.

_____________________________

John Dillworth: "I had GreyJoy check my spelling and he said it was fine."
Well, that's that settled then.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 57
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 11:09:44 PM   
kjnoel

 

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I don't post much but I read a lot.

I would just like to echo Ckammp's comments. There is nothing to be gained and this isn't the place.

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Post #: 58
RE: Our game - 6/19/2011 11:41:28 PM   
Erkki

 

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I dont think Nemo starting a "<person> prohibited" thread a while ago helped any, but...


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
Tkankfully, they aren't. I've always been a bit too much of a neo-cryptic Budhist, when I wasn't an Acquinan Jesuit, for the Rabbinical Council. But my local rebe always thought that I would make a darn good jew. Go figure.

btw, I love your sig. I know it's fake and you doctored it for your own purposes, but it's still fun. It does make people look. And once they look they do tend to ask questions and make up their own minds. Thanks for sparking their interest.

Ciao. JWE

----------------------

Holy cow. Think you need to start a "I hate JWE" or or "I hate Babes" or "I hate anybody who knows more than me" or "I hate anybody who' knows I'm pretentious" thread all your own self. You will get a gazillion hits. And we will get a gazillion laughs. In the meantime, all you are doing is making yourself look silly.

This is a thread for Linda. Does Linda want to play?
--------------------

Oof. Hok a chainik. But then a bris is a good thing. The ladies love it. The Council wanted me to give one to Chuck Norris, but he cut the knife instead. Oy, trying to shep naches with that boy makes me plotz.





...especially the first. Green button.

_____________________________


(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 59
RE: Our game - 6/20/2011 12:56:00 AM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 12607
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: ME-FL-NE-IL ?
Status: offline
Post deleted. Aplogies to all.

< Message edited by AW1Steve -- 6/20/2011 2:01:54 AM >


_____________________________

"Geezerhood is a state of mind, attained by being largely out of yours". AW1Steve

(in reply to Erkki)
Post #: 60
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