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Flying oil - 6/2/2011 2:12:20 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 342
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline 		During the last game my paratroopers took an oil refinery situated behind enemy lines. For the next turn I received loads of oil. How could the oil be sent? I donīt know.

I believe that it should be connected in some way (roads or ports) to any HQ to get the oil or raw.

Guys, this is not a minor issue .
Post #: 1
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 2:20:27 PM   
Casus_Belli

 

Posts: 441
Joined: 11/20/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with this. Same with ships at sea being able to use oil from a pool, or worse, having their oil used up by some air operation a hundred miles away. How would you get the oil from the fleet to the aircraft?


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Post #: 2
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 2:23:26 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1078
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Itīs not something that hasnīt been reported already. Fact is that Oil and Raw donīt require a connection to a HQ in order to be produced.

Personally i think its a minor issue. But if you want to have Vic make a patch for it, then go ahead and ask for it. It would make the time between turns longer, as the same kind of calculations that are made for supply would have to be made for Oil and Raw (or any of the other RegimeSlots used for a resource, there are ALOT of available RegimeSlots).

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 3
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 3:09:35 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 342
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

Itīs not something that hasnīt been reported already. Fact is that Oil and Raw donīt require a connection to a HQ in order to be produced.

Personally i think its a minor issue. But if you want to have Vic make a patch for it, then go ahead and ask for it. It would make the time between turns longer, as the same kind of calculations that are made for supply would have to be made for Oil and Raw (or any of the other RegimeSlots used for a resource, there are ALOT of available RegimeSlots).

Ok. Instead of HQ cities. At least connected to cities. Itīs not neccesary special calculations for this, you got it or not. Simple as that. I firmly believe itīs an important issue to any player who enjoys a bit of realism.

ATG is an amazing and serious game. Today Iīve felt dissapointed.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 4
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 3:17:19 PM   
EmTom

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline 		I like the way that oil/raw works in the game right now, but I think that using oil from source that paratroopers taken far behind enemy lines is somewhat unrealistic. Perhaps it would be enough to make sure resources are connected to some allied HQ?

I'm not sure about that however because encircled oil/raw defended by HQ with some forces is also cut off and resources produced there would normally be only available to defending HQ. This would make the game much more complicated cause oil supply would have to be tracked to every unit just like ernieschwitz wrote in the previous post...


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Post #: 5
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 4:56:05 PM   
all5n


Posts: 332
Joined: 12/19/2007
From: Republic of Texas
Status: offline 		The problem with this is that i want to spend time playing the game, not manually having to fill the gas tank for every ship, airplane, and tank i own.

Next you will be wanting to add refineries to process the oil, pipelines or trucks to transport it, and have to keep track of diesel and petrol and which units need which.  This does not appeal to me.

I agree that its not realistic, but then i don't want realism here.  War is something i would rather experience in a game and not in reality.

(in reply to EmTom)
Post #: 6
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 5:00:34 PM   
Rander


Posts: 55
Joined: 4/18/2007
Status: offline 		I agree with Jafele, and also think that the flying oil it's unrealistic. I think that oil/raw sources must have some kind of connection to a friendly city.

For an absolute realism then they have to be connected by rail (or road).

Kind regards,
Rander.

(in reply to EmTom)
Post #: 7
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 5:13:05 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 342
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline 		Iīm talking about connection between cities (not HQs) and refineries. Nothing more. The rule remain the same (not neccesary doing it manually). Simplicity and realism are not enemies in this issue. I donīt want a extremely realistic war simulation, this is just a game for fun. However, there are basic things we shouldnīt accept: Oil cannot fly.

(in reply to all5n)
Post #: 8
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 5:18:49 PM   
all5n


Posts: 332
Joined: 12/19/2007
From: Republic of Texas
Status: offline 		Ok im with you. That makes sense. If i own a resource hex in the middle of a mountain range that prevents the resources from being delivered to a HQ, should i need to build a road there to be able to collect those resources?

This will probably matter in the implementation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jafele

Iīm talking about connection between cities (not HQs) and refineries. Nothing more. The rule remain the same (not neccesary doing it manually). Simplicity and realism are not enemies in this issue. I donīt want a extremely realistic war simulation, this is just a game for fun. However, there are basic things we shouldnīt accept: Oil cannot fly.


(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 9
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 5:52:29 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1078
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I think to better understand what you are asking for, you need to know how the game handles Oil and Raw at the moment.

To do this, you have to know about RegimeSlots. Basically these are variables that can be any number at all. You can have an event add, subtract, divide and multiply them with anything. And they are easy to use in coding events. Oil and Raw are RegimeSlots. Now RegimeSlots can be alot of other things too. For instance, if you want to make a timer for a specific nation, that counts down each round of play that is played, you can make that as well. Or you can use them as a boolean (true/false) to set any number of features for a specific regime.

When a location, like an Oil Well, produces oil, it does so by producing an item. This item can be set to be a RegimeSlot. So, an Oil Well, will produce oil, by adding the number (of items) produced by the location to the RegimeSlot.

This is NOT what happens when you produce supply. Supply is handled by the game engine, in a different matter. It is NOT a RegimeSlot.

So changing Oil and Raw to be Supply like is a bigger undertaking, that would need to update the game engine, and probably by adding to the supply function, which already can take minutes to calculate in scenarios like WaW for ATG.

You might argue that you could make the function that needed to be added to the game engine a little simpler than the supply issue. You could argue that you wanted to check if there was a "connection" between a resource production site and resource "recieving" site. But that too would be awkward. For one thing, what is a connection? Is flying good enough (over enemy territory or not)... Surely for some resources such as "diamonds" or "cash" (which i operate with in my upcoming Congo Scenario) this could be done. While for other resources such as Oil and Raw, this would be bad. Also is moving the Raw/Oil by sea going to be viable. How do you explain that supplies donīt get through, but Oil and Raw does?

Also there is the matter again that each resource is a RegimeSlot. What to do about all those RegimeSlots that are booleans, or counters, or something else? Clearly we would need something different, perhaps a RegimeResourceSlot for each country. And what then? What about all those scenarios that would need to be reprogrammed to update this new ResourceConnection check?

All in all, this is going to be alot of reprogramming for something that the game already supports, albeit a bit unrealisticly, at the moment.



(in reply to all5n)
Post #: 10
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 6:00:15 PM   
phatkarp


Posts: 129
Joined: 4/14/2011
Status: offline 		I noticed that the random map generator frequently gives you resources that are not "connected" to any of your cities, either because they are on an island without a port, or stuck in the middle of nowhere with no rail access.  The benefit of the current set-up is that these quirks of the map are not decisive or crippling. 

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 11
RE: Flying oil - 6/2/2011 8:31:53 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 342
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline 		Basicly we all agree that this rule is against the law of gravity: If tons of oil can fly, following this principle tanks could fly in the same way, why not? ATG should be wargame not a fantasy game. Perhaps in the future it must changed. Unfortunately there are technical problems to get an easy solution at the moment.


(in reply to phatkarp)
Post #: 12
RE: Flying oil - 6/3/2011 1:57:49 AM   
SSFSX17

 

Posts: 170
Joined: 10/14/2001
From: California
Status: offline 		It may be theoretically possible, with some scripting, to implement resources realistically.

First, you need a new LocType called "Refinery"

Then, you make oil wells always produce an SFType called "Crude" which cannot move by itself

Finally, on every turn, you use a script to transform all "Crude" that is on a "Refinery" into oil.

For those who are seriously bothered by this issue, this may be a good project that will also get you familiar with some of ATG's inner guts and moddability.

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 13
RE: Flying oil - 6/3/2011 5:00:09 AM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 2502
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		I'd prefer to have oil resource sites unallocated initally and let the resource sites be fought over and the victor must add necessary logisitcal support to "realistically" get the resource back to a friendly city.

Or, have every starting position consist of a city, raw and oil resource in a small "mega" hex plopped randomly on the map. Then let the regimes fight it out.

_____________________________

"Games lubricate the body and the mind" Ben Franklin.

(in reply to SSFSX17)
Post #: 14
RE: Flying oil - 6/3/2011 9:25:59 AM   
EmTom

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 5/25/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz
I think to better understand what you are asking for, you need to know how the game handles Oil and Raw at the moment. [...]


Thanks for those technical details. After reading your post I will never rant about this kind of resource issues again. :)

_____________________________

I'm with you since People's Tactics and I love it!

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Post #: 15
RE: Flying oil - 6/3/2011 10:51:34 AM   
ernieschwitz

 

Posts: 1078
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: EmTom
quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz
I think to better understand what you are asking for, you need to know how the game handles Oil and Raw at the moment. [...]

Thanks for those technical details. After reading your post I will never rant about this kind of resource issues again. :)


Well, i donīt mind the rant. I just want people to know what they are ranting about. I am not saying that the issue canīt be fixed, in some way or another. I am quite sure that Vic is up to the task. The question is really do we want him to do this, which could be relatively complicated, or something else. After all there is only so much one man can do... ;)

(in reply to EmTom)
Post #: 16
RE: Flying oil - 6/3/2011 11:58:22 AM   
Twotribes


Posts: 3993
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		Leave it the way it is. If you don't want gamey tactics don't use them. Not saying the simple act of dropping para on oil or raw is gamey, saying since you know the game works this way if you develop a tactic of doing it for your benefit due to the game mechanic THAT is gamey.

I have enough problems with oil needs I don't want more.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)
Post #: 17
RE: Flying oil - 6/3/2011 1:45:34 PM   
henri51


Posts: 916
Joined: 1/16/2009
Status: offline 		Leave it the way it is. It is a very minor and rare problem, and implementing oil connection to cities or HQs could slow down the game considerably to make it unplayable on large maps.

Henri

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 18
RE: Flying oil - 6/7/2011 7:47:33 PM   
Jeffrey H.


Posts: 2502
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline 		The old AT had the "hardcore logistics" option. Perhaps that can be added to ATG ? Or os it already there ?


_____________________________

"Games lubricate the body and the mind" Ben Franklin.

(in reply to henri51)
Post #: 19
RE: Flying oil - 6/8/2011 12:05:17 AM   
Whydmer


Posts: 85
Joined: 6/5/2009
Status: offline 		What if an oil or raw site were to be out of supply from the owning regime then that oil or raw site does not produce its resource, would that work?

(in reply to Jeffrey H.)
Post #: 20
RE: Flying oil - 6/8/2011 5:59:56 PM   
mgaffn1

 

Posts: 156
Joined: 11/20/2009
Status: offline 		I concur with ernieschwitz, TwoTribes, and henri51 - leave it the way it is.
(EmTom makes some valid points in regard to realism, but many of the suggested fixes would lead to a less playable game)

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(in reply to Whydmer)
Post #: 21
RE: Flying oil - 6/8/2011 6:05:51 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

Posts: 752
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		In AT-Classic resources had to be connected to an HQ in order to be produced from a resource location (take a look at my Space Opera scenerio for an example). The no HQ looks to be a change that was made in AT Gold.... I'm guessing there might be some rulevar that might control that?

However the AT classic situation really wasn't much better as you could simply build an HQ unit in the resource hex, put 1 infantry or staff SFT into it and send your resource production into it and it goes into the global pool to be used anywhere.

It really helps if you think of supply as the type of refined fuel that your units really use when moving......as that does require logistic links from units to HQ's to production sites and can be stockpiled localy.

If you really wanted to design a model that was more realistic SSFSX17 has the right idea and it's something that could be done with the editor.

1) Design an SFT for each raw resource that you want to model (oil, ore, etc) and only resource locations build that type of SFT.

2) Manualy transport those sft's to the facilities (factory, cities, etc) that will process them and have a script that checks those locations eact turn and converts the raw resource sft's into processed resources that fill a regieme slot.

3) For things like tanks/planes, etc. Simply require that the processed resources be drawn from the global pool in order to produce that item type (look at Space Opera if you want an example of how to do this in the editor).

4) For things like fuel... use SUPPLY to represent it. Setup different item types that represent supply produced at different costs (You can look at the AT Classic version of WAW as I think it does this for pre-war japanese supply). CHEAPLY built supply requires use of processed oil resource from the global pool. EXPENSIVE supply doesn't require oil resource to build (You can think of it as synthetic fuel).

5)Use the supply consumption rate of SFT's to determine whether they are using fuel or not. SFT's that don't require fuel... infantry, horses, etc... use very low supply consumption, supply for them justs represents ammo,food, medical equipment, spare parts, etc. SFT's that do require fuel....tanks, planes, ships, etc... set to have a very high supply consumption.

6) Let the supply system determine logisticaly whether units are getting what they need to operate each turn.

(IMO)That's probably the closest you can get to modeling a realistic resource consumption cycle in the AT system. It's definately some work...but entirely doable in the existing editor/game engine.

Note - I'm not sure the AI would be able to intelligently handle resouce management like this for it's production though.

< Message edited by GrumpyMel -- 6/8/2011 6:09:23 PM >

(in reply to Whydmer)
Post #: 22
RE: Flying oil - 6/8/2011 8:49:48 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 342
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline 		I donīt know if itīs possible a solution to this issue since I donīt have a deep knowledge of ATG . But I think it should be tested. From my point of view a good rule needs two points:

1-Realistic
2-Easy to play (not excessive micromanagement)

If a rule is unrealistic or not easy to play, then itīs a normal rule. An unrealistic and not easy to play rule is a bad one. So, the flying oil is a normal rule, something strange in a good supply system game like used to be AT.

It looks Iīm talking about obvious things, but if you look outside there are so many games with a lack of good rules, probably because the equation business=quality is over good rules=quality. Iīm pretty sure that a game plenty of good rules can make happy to everyone. At the end weīll have the game that we deserve.

(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 23
RE: Flying oil - 6/10/2011 3:51:13 PM   
all5n


Posts: 332
Joined: 12/19/2007
From: Republic of Texas
Status: offline 		I agree, its not that big of a deal. I can think of a other features that would be higher priority if the time/money was going to be spent.


quote:

ORIGINAL: mgaffn1

I concur with ernieschwitz, TwoTribes, and henri51 - leave it the way it is.
(EmTom makes some valid points in regard to realism, but many of the suggested fixes would lead to a less playable game)


(in reply to mgaffn1)
Post #: 24
RE: Flying oil - 6/10/2011 11:57:27 PM   
lancer

 

Posts: 597
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		G'day,

I've been quietly beavering away and have developed a random game mod that does the following...

Resources - RAW and OIL - only accumulate if they can trace a path back to your capital via rail links and ports.

No connection, no resource. This simple change makes a huge difference to the play of the game. You get a more strategic focus on developing and protecting your transport grid.

Additionally I've got an option that requires you to provide transport capacity to move the aforementioned resources from your resources sites back to your capital.

This doesn't involved any micromanagement but it does require you to build a fair number of trains and cargoships - beyond normal use.

Any valid resources that can't be moved because of a lack of transport are sent to a 'stockpile' which you can access once you have excess (to normal requirements) transport capacity.

Developing that OIL resource to level 3 when it is two hexes from your capital is no big deal. Doing so when it is on an island halfway across the map becomes a major drama.

You also have the ability to tell the Fat Controller (who is running the whole show) to focus his efforts on one resource or another.

Changes the game more so. Aim was to bridge the difficulty gap between the AI (too easy once you get some experience) and the AI++ (too hard) while adding a more strategic focus. Also makes playing ocean heavy maps vs. the AI (it's weakest on these types of maps) a real challenge.

I've done this to tweak the game to my preferences. All done and dusted (apart from the fine tuning - balancing for different map sizes) and working nicely. Minimal overhead in turn processing times - about an extra five seconds on my computer which is pretty amazing given the amount of scripting involved.

As there seems to be an interest in this area I'll look at polishing it up and releasing it for general use.

Cheers,
Lancer

(in reply to all5n)
Post #: 25
RE: Flying oil - 6/11/2011 10:28:16 AM   
Vic


Posts: 3419
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lancer

G'day,

I've been quietly beavering away and have developed a random game mod that does the following...

Resources - RAW and OIL - only accumulate if they can trace a path back to your capital via rail links and ports.

No connection, no resource. This simple change makes a huge difference to the play of the game. You get a more strategic focus on developing and protecting your transport grid.

Additionally I've got an option that requires you to provide transport capacity to move the aforementioned resources from your resources sites back to your capital.

This doesn't involved any micromanagement but it does require you to build a fair number of trains and cargoships - beyond normal use.

Any valid resources that can't be moved because of a lack of transport are sent to a 'stockpile' which you can access once you have excess (to normal requirements) transport capacity.

Developing that OIL resource to level 3 when it is two hexes from your capital is no big deal. Doing so when it is on an island halfway across the map becomes a major drama.

You also have the ability to tell the Fat Controller (who is running the whole show) to focus his efforts on one resource or another.

Changes the game more so. Aim was to bridge the difficulty gap between the AI (too easy once you get some experience) and the AI++ (too hard) while adding a more strategic focus. Also makes playing ocean heavy maps vs. the AI (it's weakest on these types of maps) a real challenge.

I've done this to tweak the game to my preferences. All done and dusted (apart from the fine tuning - balancing for different map sizes) and working nicely. Minimal overhead in turn processing times - about an extra five seconds on my computer which is pretty amazing given the amount of scripting involved.

As there seems to be an interest in this area I'll look at polishing it up and releasing it for general use.

Cheers,
Lancer


Sounds interesting. I am happy to hear some hardcore modding is going on. Will defenitely take a look at this when finished. I have been thinking about a capitol based system somewhere in the future as well. This might provide a good test.

Another thing that just didnt make my complexity-cut was next to RAW and OIL: a POP resource. This would defenitely make things more realistic as well as at a certain stage of the war you'll run out of manpower. I scraped the thing to keep things simple, but when I was thinking of adding it in i was planning to also let the ammount of POP you have influence your production power. So if you recruit all POP you will have a lack of people working in the factories.

best,
Vic


_____________________________

Victor Reijkersz Designs
www.vrdesigns.nl

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 26
RE: Flying oil - 6/11/2011 10:46:02 AM   
Rander


Posts: 55
Joined: 4/18/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lancer

G'day,

I've been quietly beavering away and have developed a random game mod that does the following...

Resources - RAW and OIL - only accumulate if they can trace a path back to your capital via rail links and ports.

.
.
.

Cheers,
Lancer
It sounds great!
Hope it will be implemented on future patches.
Are you going to make the mod avaiable for download?

Kind regards,
Rander.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 27
RE: Flying oil - 6/11/2011 12:13:54 PM   
Jafele


Posts: 342
Joined: 4/20/2011
From: Seville (Spain)
Status: offline 		Thank you Lancer, weīll be waiting for the mod . It could help to Vic for a future patch.

< Message edited by Jafele -- 6/11/2011 12:14:34 PM >

(in reply to Rander)
Post #: 28
RE: Flying oil - 6/11/2011 12:25:48 PM   
lancer

 

Posts: 597
Joined: 10/18/2005
Status: offline 		G'day,

Give me a week. Should be ready to roll by then.

Cheers,

Lancer

(in reply to Jafele)
Post #: 29
RE: Flying oil - 6/11/2011 3:06:53 PM   
Josh

 

Posts: 1813
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Leeuwarden, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Great ideas all.
I do like Lancers idea, and the POP idea. Too much cannon fodder to the front and your factories go empty... Still, like Vic says, keeping things simple is important.  The reason I don't play HOI anymore... too many sliders and knobs doing who knows what. Yes you can influence everything, but IMHO it doesn't add fun to gameplay.

/quote: "let the ammount of POP you have influence your production power" Sounds great, ofcourse the next question is; what influenses this POP thing? Happiness? Enough consumer goods? War weariness? Strategic Bombing? Successes on the battlefield? So more POP happiness and more Consumer Goods = more POP growth, and more losses and the longer the conflict wears on the greater the POP decreases. Or the POP efficiency gets. Oh I found a new one I see, POP "efficiency". Your POP efficiency can rise and fall, depending on... say technological advances.

(in reply to lancer)
Post #: 30
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