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IJA airborne units: 5th and Training Rgts

 
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IJA airborne units: 5th and Training Rgts - 5/30/2011 9:50:44 PM   
el cid again

 

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See Post far below replying to this item re missing units.

Same as the tanks, Joe and I collected papers and books, and did OB research
which seems to have not survived into AE - where people are being creative
or making assumptions.

First - the little guy:

NAVY AIRBORNE SNLF
this is the ONLY triangular organization - 3 companies
if companies they be - three platoons too - of 3 squads
plus TINY support

3x3x3 squads = 27 airborne squads
Each company gets a "platoon" of 2 7.7mm HMG = 6 in the battalion
[AE has interpreted "HMG" as a bigger AAMG - which it is not - although it IS an AAMG]
each company gets a "platoon" of 2 Type 98 20mm ATG - not sure these are in the game?
There is a Type 98 AA 20 mm gun - but I think that is the wheeled one - not the rifle.
Anyway - 6 in the battalion of these too
And the battalion gets a whole platoon of engineers = 3 squads!
Support is bloody inadequate at 27 squads.

End of list

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/5/2011 8:48:04 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: IJA airborne units - 5/30/2011 9:55:02 PM   
el cid again

 

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Second, the Raiding Brigade and the Raiding Regiment
These are BINARY units - and the "brigade" is really a "force" - which
in IJA jargon means binary (two line units)
The regiment is almost half the brigade - there being almost no brigade assets
outside HQ

Para squads 27 per regiment x 2 plus 2 at brigade = 58
engineer squads 9 per regiment x 2 = 18 in the brigade
7.7 mm HMG squads 8 per regiment = 16 in the brigade
81 mm mortars 4 per regiment = 8 in the brigade
70 mm gun howitzers 4 per regiment = 8 in the brigade
Support 40 per regiment = 80 in the brigade

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 2
RE: IJA airborne units - 5/30/2011 10:01:06 PM   
el cid again

 

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Last - and least in significance - is the Glider Force / Regiment
This because it was fromed very late, and never properly supported with
the gliders designed - only one kind ever made - and it was only used
for transport between bases - never for assault. Still - it did form up
and it did have gliders in time for the Philippines - where it got sent and used.

Here we have a problem - it had actual airborne arty - and AE code won't let
it fly! 75 mm Mountain Guns. Probably use AT guns or 70 mm howitzers instead.
4 in a regiment, 8 in the force.

There also were proper AT guns, 37 or 47 mm, 4 in a regiment, 8 in the force.

7.7 mm AAMG - 8 in a regiment - 16 in the force.

Engineers - 9 in a regiment - 18 in the force.

Here is the kicker - heavier weapons needing more support
but support remains 40 squads per regiment and 80 in the force.



The infantry is wrongly listed as regular squads - they are PARA squads - just as the jumpers
and they are trained and equipped to the same standard as the raiders.
27 per regiment - 54 in the force.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 3
RE: IJA airborne units - 5/30/2011 10:02:51 PM   
el cid again

 

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Japanese paras were trained by Germans - between 80 and 110 German officers and NCOs at various times.
They listened and adopted something very rare - let the raiding command own the transports. They then
were unable to afford enough transports to fully benefit from that. But a rading command in IJA is BOTH
a ground unit AND an air unit - it has its own transport planes!

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 4
RE: IJA airborne units - 6/1/2011 10:15:01 PM   
el cid again

 

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A very much unknown airborne element is the Koaru Raiding Unit
This was actually the most elite formation in IJA, never mind it was not even
ethnic Japanese!
Rather, its members were Taiwanese tribesmen.
Seems IJA had a policy of "combat training" vs the rural natives.
They ran into one obscure group who fought to the death.
Ultimately they were recruited for use as raiders. The tribesmen loved the
chance to use modern weapons - and had very similar ideas about death and
honor as IJA did.
Anyway - these were sort of special forces - and they were organized as follows:
2 line companies (18 parachute squads - 9 per company - 3 per platoon
with a "heavy weapons platoon" of 3 7.7 mm HMG per company = 6 HMG
as well as 3 Type 99 20mm AT Rifles = 6 ATR)
That is, the "heavy weapons" - weak as they are - are more plentiful per co
than in the regular IJA airborne!
1 assault engineer platoon (2 assault engineer squads)
These might be better described as sappers or demolition teams.
20 support squads total (10 per company)
The unit could - and usually did - break down - a company on a mission.
The unit was available for operations about 431215.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/1/2011 10:45:47 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 5
RE: IJA airborne units - 6/1/2011 10:23:39 PM   
el cid again

 

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A slightly less obscure but unique organization (which IS in the AE ORBAT)
is the Tank Rading Unit - again the term unit is formal and means "two company formation" -
as distinct from "battalion" or "regiment" - which implies 3 or 4 line companies.

AE correctly lists 14 light tanks and 12 tankettes. If I remember correctly, that is
12 light tanks in one company, 12 tankettes in the other company, and 2 light tanks in
the command element. [I suppose it might have been mixed tanks and tankettes -
which for some reason IJA liked to do sometimes]
Also correctly listed is a company (IJA did not use the term battery) of 4 x 47mm Type 1 ATG.
Missing is a company sized contingent of paras - 9 parachute squads and 2 7.7 mm "HMG"
And being a mech unit, it had motorized support squads - although probably a mix of
mot support and just support would be a better representation. I use 20 motorized and
9 unmotorized support squads - but one might reasonably use a different mix.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 6
RE: IJA airborne units - 6/2/2011 8:22:41 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

A very much unknown airborne element is the Koaru Raiding Unit
This was actually the most elite formation in IJA, never mind it was not even
ethnic Japanese!
Rather, its members were Taiwanese tribesmen.
Seems IJA had a policy of "combat training" vs the rural natives.
They ran into one obscure group who fought to the death.
Ultimately they were recruited for use as raiders. The tribesmen loved the
chance to use modern weapons - and had very similar ideas about death and
honor as IJA did.
Anyway - these were sort of special forces - and they were organized as follows:
2 line companies (18 parachute squads - 9 per company - 3 per platoon
with a "heavy weapons platoon" of 3 7.7 mm HMG per company = 6 HMG
as well as 3 Type 99 20mm AT Rifles = 6 ATR)
That is, the "heavy weapons" - weak as they are - are more plentiful per co
than in the regular IJA airborne!
1 assault engineer platoon (2 assault engineer squads)
These might be better described as sappers or demolition teams.
20 support squads total (10 per company)
The unit could - and usually did - break down - a company on a mission.
The unit was available for operations about 431215.


The Koaru Raiding Unit was not two companies strong, it was part of a Japanese Guerilla special force (indeed using indegenious people from Formosa) that was two companies strong. The Koaru Unit (the airborne component of the guerilla force) itself was only platoon sized.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 7
RE: IJA airborne units - 6/3/2011 6:48:34 PM   
el cid again

 

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That is very interesting. The book I have on Japanese Airborne which describes the unit
fails to say that. It may be the author did not know it. Do you have any details about
where it trained, where it based, or any of its missions? It seems odd to list it in a book
ONLY describing airborne units if it isn't one - but it may be that isn't clear to the writer?
He did include a photograph of a section inside a light transport plane - very nicely fitted
out - and they LOOK like paras.

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 8
RE: IJA airborne units - 6/3/2011 11:03:14 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

That is very interesting. The book I have on Japanese Airborne which describes the unit
fails to say that. It may be the author did not know it. Do you have any details about
where it trained, where it based, or any of its missions? It seems odd to list it in a book
ONLY describing airborne units if it isn't one - but it may be that isn't clear to the writer?
He did include a photograph of a section inside a light transport plane - very nicely fitted
out - and they LOOK like paras.


There is a short description of the Koaru unit in 'Japanese Paratroop Forces of World War II' by Rottman, Takizawa ('Taki'), Chappell. Not very detailed but it explains that it was part of a two companies strong guerilla force formed from Formosan natives. Its only mission was on Luzon (a miserable failure, btw.). And the Koaru unit was an airborne unit, just very small and probably not with much jump-training.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 9
RE: IJA airborne units - 6/3/2011 11:14:21 PM   
JeffK


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Read 
Japanese Paratroop Forces of World War IIBy Gordon L. Rottman, A. Takizawa, M. Chappell
Google books clipping at
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=DR0k6p9HDEYC&pg=PA44&lpg=PA44&dq=Kaoru+Raiding+Unit&source=bl&ots=dhCFqdkH07&sig=wuNpBrfpiwEK-c7w4y4rLlnfoOY&hl=en&ei=KFnpTebFOIWYvAO-1OzQDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Kaoru%20Raiding%20Unit&f=false

mentions 40 men hastily trained in airlanding techniques as their trasnports landed at American airbases.

a forum at war44.com has more (maybe copied from the above) about japanese paras on Leyte
http://www.war44.com/war-pacific/706-operations-leyte.html

Also, Rottman et al debunks the US MID pamphet Japanese Parchute Troops Special Series no 32 which claims "That about 100 german instructors arrived", the japanese needed, areceived no help from the Germans in this area.
The same pamphlet claims some 15,000 paratroops received training in 1941, these and other claims were based on diliberatly misleading information published by the japanese.


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(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 10
RE: IJA airborne units - 6/5/2011 8:32:43 AM   
el cid again

 

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Francillon - who is highly respected - reports no less than a 110 man training detachment of German
parachutists. I have papers and books claiming that BOTH IJA and IJN programs were ENTIRELY
designed and run by the German trainers - who, however, remained at the schools, and did not ever
go into the field. It would be surprising if the Japanese were able to organize effective units without
help of this sort. Since the reports are multiple, and from respected sources, I think they are
generally accepted by historians. I seem to remember Green mentioning them. Note that one of the
German greats spent years in Japan, deigning aircraft, at Hitachi as I recall, ending just before the
war began. Certainly aviation industry technical assistence was rendered. I suspect airborne training
was as well.

(in reply to JeffK)
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RE: IJA airborne units: 5th and Training Rgts - 6/5/2011 8:49:04 AM   
el cid again

 

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There seem to be two missing airborne regiments in IJA.

The most important is the 5th Raider Regiment - a line units similar to the first four.
The other one is the Raiding Training Regiment. This unit was used operationally in China,
and with success.

Both units - and the other line units - disbanded to form up the 1944 heavier airmobile units.

(in reply to el cid again)
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RE: IJA airborne units: 5th and Training Rgts - 6/5/2011 11:15:56 AM   
Terminus


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Having read both sources, I'd say that neither Rottman nor Francillon present convincing arguments for their respective opinions. However, given how stingy the Germans were with technical and doctrinal support for their Axis partners, and given the fact that Jap airborne doctrine bears little resemblance to German ditto, I'd lean towards Rottman.

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(in reply to el cid again)
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RE: IJA airborne units: 5th and Training Rgts - 6/5/2011 4:05:56 PM   
el cid again

 

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We are given the interesting detail that the German advisors suggested
creating a unified command for aircraft and airborn troops - which advice
was adopted. This is amplified by the comment that the German's
themselves were not able to adopt the concept, never mind it is widely
recommended by airborn experts in many countries. It seems unlikely
that a suggestion would be attributed to advisors who didn't exist.
Francillon is writing a reference book which mainly presents data as strings
of facts - either text or tabular - supplimented by photographs. I fail to
see what would make his presentation "persuasive" for you? Either you
accept his facts, or you do not. He isn't assuming they will be disbelieved
and somehow need to be supported by citations. In my experience, to
write citing sources exhaustively takes 500% more pages and 1000% more
time. I am sure the book could not have been published if done in that way.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 6/5/2011 4:10:10 PM >

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RE: IJA airborne units: 5th and Training Rgts - 6/5/2011 4:37:32 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

We are given the interesting detail that the German advisors suggested
creating a unified command for aircraft and airborn troops - which advice
was adopted. This is amplified by the comment that the German's
themselves were not able to adopt the concept, never mind it is widely
recommended by airborn experts in many countries. It seems unlikely
that a suggestion would be attributed to advisors who didn't exist.
Francillon is writing a reference book which mainly presents data as strings
of facts - either text or tabular - supplimented by photographs. I fail to
see what would make his presentation "persuasive" for you? Either you
accept his facts, or you do not. He isn't assuming they will be disbelieved
and somehow need to be supported by citations. In my experience, to
write citing sources exhaustively takes 500% more pages and 1000% more
time. I am sure the book could not have been published if done in that way.


Germany did create a unified command--the German Fallschirmjaeger were Luftwaffe troops. Originally, they were organised as the 7th Fliegerdivision and were a component of the XI. Fliegerkorps.

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(in reply to el cid again)
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RE: IJA airborne units: 5th and Training Rgts - 6/5/2011 5:37:57 PM   
Mifune


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Quite correct herwin and was a battle for that distinction between the Heer and the Luftwaffe.

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RE: IJA airborne units - 6/6/2011 12:45:40 PM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Francillon - who is highly respected - reports no less than a 110 man training detachment of German
parachutists. I have papers and books claiming that BOTH IJA and IJN programs were ENTIRELY
designed and run by the German trainers - who, however, remained at the schools, and did not ever
go into the field. It would be surprising if the Japanese were able to organize effective units without
help of this sort. Since the reports are multiple, and from respected sources, I think they are
generally accepted by historians. I seem to remember Green mentioning them. Note that one of the
German greats spent years in Japan, deigning aircraft, at Hitachi as I recall, ending just before the
war began. Certainly aviation industry technical assistence was rendered. I suspect airborne training
was as well.


Does Francillon offer any source or reference for his report? This would be interesting!

Don't know what the truth is here, but I could not find any statement in any German source/book that refers to any Fallschirmjaeger send to Japan in 1940 or 1941.

This alone - not finding any reference in German sources - does not tell much. However, given the fact that is quite easy to find references to much more obscure dealings between Japan and Germany in WW2, it seems quite unlikely that such a thing would not have been mentioned in German sources about the Fallschirmjaeger in WW2 (lots of stuff about them in German language books).

After all, the instructors would probably have written something about being in Japan in 1940/41 or their relatives would have started inquiries about them if they would not have returned.

IMHO, the statement that German Fallschirmjaeger trained Japanese paratroopers, seems to be a similar myth like the old myth that German instructors trained the Japanese 4th Armored Division along the lines of Panzerlehrdivision.


(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 17
RE: IJA airborne units - 6/6/2011 8:50:21 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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Speculation on my part but it seems to me that the IJA/IJN, just like almost every other major army, was capable of designing and implementing its own parchute and glider programs w/o foreign assistance. Enough impetus to establish a program would have been provided by the military journals/gossip of the day (and we're all of aware of the tendancy in the military whenever an army gets a new toy the others are going to want their own). The equipment needs and other technical requirements are something less than rocket science.

As far as marrying transport a/c to specific troops, it's not disimilar from the IJN marrying its aircraft to their carriers. The Japanese tended to do things their own way.

Just my uninformed $0.02.

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 18
RE: IJA airborne units - 6/7/2011 12:23:33 AM   
treespider


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From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

Francillon - who is highly respected - reports no less than a 110 man training detachment of German
parachutists. I have papers and books claiming that BOTH IJA and IJN programs were ENTIRELY
designed and run by the German trainers - who, however, remained at the schools, and did not ever
go into the field. It would be surprising if the Japanese were able to organize effective units without
help of this sort. Since the reports are multiple, and from respected sources, I think they are
generally accepted by historians. I seem to remember Green mentioning them. Note that one of the
German greats spent years in Japan, deigning aircraft, at Hitachi as I recall, ending just before the
war began. Certainly aviation industry technical assistence was rendered. I suspect airborne training
was as well.


Does Francillon offer any source or reference for his report? This would be interesting!

Don't know what the truth is here, but I could not find any statement in any German source/book that refers to any Fallschirmjaeger send to Japan in 1940 or 1941.

This alone - not finding any reference in German sources - does not tell much. However, given the fact that is quite easy to find references to much more obscure dealings between Japan and Germany in WW2, it seems quite unlikely that such a thing would not have been mentioned in German sources about the Fallschirmjaeger in WW2 (lots of stuff about them in German language books).

After all, the instructors would probably have written something about being in Japan in 1940/41 or their relatives would have started inquiries about them if they would not have returned.

IMHO, the statement that German Fallschirmjaeger trained Japanese paratroopers, seems to be a similar myth like the old myth that German instructors trained the Japanese 4th Armored Division along the lines of Panzerlehrdivision.




I would be curious as to Francillon's sources as well.

Takizawa & Rottman list Masao Yamabe, Kenichi Tanaka, Tadao Nakata & Minoru Akimoto amongst their sources, all of which are Japanese.


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RE: IJA airborne units: 5th and Training Rgts - 6/11/2011 9:09:12 AM   
inqistor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again
NAVY AIRBORNE SNLF
this is the ONLY triangular organization - 3 companies
if companies they be - three platoons too - of 3 squads
plus TINY support

3x3x3 squads = 27 airborne squads
Each company gets a "platoon" of 2 7.7mm HMG = 6 in the battalion
[AE has interpreted "HMG" as a bigger AAMG - which it is not - although it IS an AAMG]
each company gets a "platoon" of 2 Type 98 20mm ATG - not sure these are in the game?
There is a Type 98 AA 20 mm gun - but I think that is the wheeled one - not the rifle.


Are you sure about those AT Rifles? There was "discussion" some time ago, about squads equipment. It seems to me, that some weapons were issued based on troops allegiance. And 20mm AT Rifle was only issued to Army units. For example, Spigot Grenade Launcher seems to be issued only to Navy units.

And yes, 20mm AA Gun, is this large, wheeled model, not AT Rifle, which are not present (same, as Boys).

So, actually any data about squads equipment? Mainly, WERE THEY USING KNEE MORTARS? And SMGs?
What about Rifle Grenade Launchers?

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 20
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