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Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me

 
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Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 8:14:40 PM   
miller41


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Normally i don't post like this but I am frustrated almost beyond words.

Situation, moving thru a town towards a victory flag, 3 PZ III tanks in the lead, 4 PZ IV in over-watch about 50 meters behind them. PZ IV start firing at spotted infantry 250 meters away, no problem. Then lead PZ III is wiped out by a hidden 76 inf gun in a building. Gun proceeds to wipe out all 3 tanks and nobody ever fired back or even saw the damn thing for that matter.
Now I tried to use the over watching PZ IV tanks to shoot the building but they decided the infantry was a bigger threat than the guns killing the tanks. What exactly are you supposed to do such silliness. It is hard enough for tanks to see infantry ion buildings, but guns? Tanks were unbuttoned and you would think someone would be screaming GUN and tanks would back up, pop smoke or something, but no they blissfully sat there and died

Also since when can you fire an infantry gun from inside a building? I didn't even think you could put them in one?

PLEASE don't tell me that I need to go slow, use over watch, which I do, or use artillery (because I found the gun by a tank dying) I have taken my time going thru the town, which is a deathtrap because tanks simply cannot get infantry to abandon building's no matter what you do. I have tried to be patient with this but I cannot take stupidity of the targeting and cannot seem to override it.

Don't get me wrong. I am trying hard to enjoy this game, figuring I am just not very good (which i am sure of) but when things happen that I cannot control that don't make any sense to me it kills absolutely any fun I was having. I see these people who are going thru campaigns and not taking losses at all. How do you avoid ambushes from guns in buildings? The only way to see them apparently is to have someone die, at least for me.

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 8:22:00 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Hi Miller41,

The goal is definitely to have fun, so if you're not having fun, we will see what we can do!

In general, infantry guns are not supposed to be able to enter buildings, so that may be a bug right there and the additional cover provided by the building may have caused the LOS issues you reported. If the tanks can't see the target, they will look for another one that is considered a higher threat.

Can you upload a save file? Was this from a random battle or one of the set scenarios?

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 8:23:08 PM   
junk2drive


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Years ago when I played Steel Panthers to death, I had a saying for myself. Never lead with tanks. I would still do it from time to time and usually paid the price. Then I would say to myself, Never lead with tanks.

It is true in PCO too. Send infantry in front of tanks to spot the guns first. Then come up with a plan to take the guns out. Just because your infantry can see the gun does not mean that your tank commander can. Your tank can still wander into range of the gun and lose.

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 8:26:35 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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It's also worth noting that buildings are currently providing infantry with a bit too much protection. It's a confirmed bug which we are fixing in the first update.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 9:06:19 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

In general, infantry guns are not supposed to be able to enter buildings


I've run into infantry guns in buildings three times thus far I believe, about in every battle where I faced infantry guns.

The infantry guns are not too much of a problem normally, but non-spotted units in buildings seem to be pretty much invulnerable. I don't have too much of a problem with infantry in buildings being resilient, that is: for the big, strong buildings.

If this were CC, I'd roll in a sIG33-on-tracks whilst something is distracting the unit in the building and BOOM, there goes the unit in the building, but even fairly large calibre shells like the 75mm's on the Panzer IVD's can make Swiss cheese out of a building in terms of shells being fired at it without it doing too much to the units inside the building.

On the other hand, MG's can be surprisingly effective against units in buildings.

As an aside: I was kind of hoping to have a sIG 33-on-tracks as part of my core or as a reinforcement from time to time, considering that the Panzer divisions featured in the random campaigns had a SP infantry gun company assigned to them, at least they both start with one in WitE.

The main problem with infantry guns in buildings is that they're close to invisible unless you're really close to them. Leading with infantry sounds like a nice idea, but I have 3 infantry squads, no armoured transports and usually open terrain to cover. The enemy tends to have 30 to 60 infantry squads, in concentrations of around 5-10 squads with MG's in support at various locations. My infantry would get butchered before it would get anywhere, so I lead with tanks. The sighting bonuses from medals/awards presumably help a bit, so I can only wonder how bad the situation is without those bonuses.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 5/29/2011 9:07:46 PM >


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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 9:14:21 PM   
miller41


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Well i do normally not lead with tanks but i have only 3 infantry units compared to 15 armor units, kinda hard to follow that logic or believe me I would have
Game was a random campaign, 1st PZ division long one.
how do you upload a save file?



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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 9:17:17 PM   
miller41


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also just so you know during my first play of this i tried that very thing, and not only did my 3 poor panzer grenadier squads not make it that far, the AI dropped a rocket barrage on them and my tanks. That caused me to rethink my tactics a bit. Means the AI is unpredictable which is good.

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 9:19:16 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

Don't get me wrong. I am trying hard to enjoy this game, figuring I am just not very good (which i am sure of) but when things happen that I cannot control that don't make any sense to me it kills absolutely any fun I was having. I see these people who are going thru campaigns and not taking losses at all. How do you avoid ambushes from guns in buildings? The only way to see them apparently is to have someone die, at least for me.


Wrong. You see a guy playing a campaign that if he takes a single loss he restarts the battle and plays it again.

I thought something was wrong with that campaign until he told me he replays any battle he takes a single loss in.

Good Hunting.

MR


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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 9:29:16 PM   
miller41


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Not true, I have played the game until my losses are over 50% and almost all tanks from units hidden in buildings. It seems useless to continue with 50% of your core force gone without learning how to prevent it? Sorry if i am giving you the impression I am taking light losses and quitting, which is not the case at all. I just want my losses to reflect poor play on my part, not because the game may have issues that I have little to no control of.




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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 9:38:19 PM   
Mobius


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Can I ask what kind of gun is showing up in houses?

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 9:41:20 PM   
junk2drive


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To upload a save, we need the scenario file if it is a random campaign and the save file in a zip file. Then click the orange "post reply" button and click the "click here to upload" text. Follow the prompts to locate the zip and upload then finish the post.

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 9:44:33 PM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

Can I ask what kind of gun is showing up in houses?


The Soviet 76mm infantry gun.

-

miller: Mad Russian's referring to me. I restart battles when I lose a tank or crew member, because I'm sort of a perfectionist. In most cases, I don't know the dispositions of the enemy units, though, so it does require a plan. Thus far, I've restarted about 15 out of 21 battles, I think.

Of course, I still have to deal with the guns in the buildings without taking losses. I do that by facing them with the frontal armour of my Panzer 38(t)E's, which the infantry guns can't normally penetrate. At some point, the tanks will make their sighting check and the gun can be targeted. In your case, you could use your Panzer IVE's (which also has a good HE capability). The armour on the rest of the tanks can be penetrated by almost every Soviet gun, so use the tank with the best armour when dealing with dug-in guns.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 5/29/2011 9:49:08 PM >


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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:02:56 PM   
Mad Russian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

Not true, I have played the game until my losses are over 50% and almost all tanks from units hidden in buildings. It seems useless to continue with 50% of your core force gone without learning how to prevent it? Sorry if i am giving you the impression I am taking light losses and quitting, which is not the case at all. I just want my losses to reflect poor play on my part, not because the game may have issues that I have little to no control of.



I didn't say you were quitting and starting over. I said the AAR you were talking about is being done by a guy that plays for a perfect score and if he doesn't get one he replays the scenario.

That's why it seems like he's not taking losses.

That's just his way of playing. It's nothing to do with the way the campaign is responding. He's having a good time with the campaign playing it his way as well.

Good Hunting.

MR


< Message edited by Mad Russian -- 5/29/2011 10:04:40 PM >


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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:07:46 PM   
miller41


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comrade is correct, 76 mm inf gun. To be fair after walking my dog and calming down about a certain post, I did realize I probably should just ignore the city entirely and advance on the other side of the river and concede the 2 VP flags on the other side of the river. My force composition is not good for an advance into a built up area and it's just asking for trouble. I could take one flag and wipe the infantry force out that I had encountered on that side.
I did lose 2 PZ III tanks to a well placed 76 inf gun on a river bank. Niether tank saw it and they both took side hits and died. Those i have no trouble with, in that case I got really careless




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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:07:56 PM   
Zakhal


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Personally Im having issues with balance(?) and spotting

Im having trouble in my current game taking out single dug in ATG. I pounded it with mortars, many turns direct fire from Klim Voroslivs, infantry fire and last turn I even close assaulted the darn gun multiple times but it doesnt even get a scratch. Graphically it looks like its taking direct hits all the time.

If its not a bug are ATGs meant to be this hard to take out even if they are dug in? Ive spent over ten turns on taking this single gun out with like 12 squads of infantry and ten tanks and three mortars. Difficulty is easy.

Also Im having spotting issues. I have 3 squads of inf 20m from the gun but they cant see it. The infantry is on lower ground but their heads are well above the gun so for gameplay purposes one would think they could see it.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 5/29/2011 10:15:31 PM >


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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:10:18 PM   
miller41


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[/quote]

I didn't say you were quitting and starting over. I said the AAR you were talking about is being done by a guy that plays for a perfect score and if he doesn't get one he replays the scenario.

That's why it seems like he's not taking losses.

That's just his way of playing. It's nothing to do with the way the campaign is responding. He's having a good time with the campaign playing it his way as well.

Good Hunting.

MR

fair enough, just a mis-understanding. I have alot of respect for your posts on this board and I do learn alot from them.

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:11:44 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Restarting isn't going to fix an impossible situation or make a really bad plan work, it's still all about finding the right units for the job. Most of my restarts early on for vehicle losses were caused by Soviet artillery, which was a bit heavier than it should be, or a Ju-87 friendly fire strike. That's also why, oddly, the earlier battles were more difficult than the ones in winter thus far in some ways. You can plan for dealing with a T-34 or KV-1, you can't plan for dealing with a friendly fire Stuka strike or where an artillery barrage is going to land (aside from staying mobile, but if it's a huge barrage during the first 3 turns, you probably haven't cleared the setup area yet with all units).

quote:

Personally Im having issues with balance(?) and spotting

Im having trouble in my current game taking out single ATG. I pounded it with mortars, many turns direct fire from Klim Voroslivs, infantry fire and last turn I even close assaulted the darn gun multiple times but it doesnt even get a scratch. It just keep shooting and shooting. It doesnt even get pinned.

If its not a bug are ATGs meant to be this hard to take out? Ive spent over ten turns on taking this single gun out. Difficulty is easy.

Also Im having spotting issues. I have 3 squads of inf 20m from the gun but they cant see it. The infantry is on lower ground but their heads are well above the gun so for gameplay purposes one would think they could see it.


That does sound like a bug. Not being damaged by mortars or KV fire is one thing, but as soon as the infantry gets close it should normally be toast. If it was never pinned or suppressed, it sounds like a glitch.

quote:

I did lose 2 PZ III tanks to a well placed 76 inf gun on a river bank. Niether tank saw it and they both took side hits and died.


Visibility to the side and rear for tanks is really poor. I've come up behind a (group of) T-34('s) twice without it spotting me in time to do something about my tanks before it was too late. Generally, if you're going to make a move that exposes side armour, make sure there's at least some cover from the terrain or that you're driving through a part of the terrain that's lower than the rest.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 5/29/2011 10:17:10 PM >


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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:17:12 PM   
miller41


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quote:

To upload a save, we need the scenario file if it is a random campaign and the save file in a zip file. Then click the orange "post reply" button and click the "click here to upload" text. Follow the prompts to locate the zip and upload then finish the post.


I went to the scenario dir and there are numerous XML files dated today when I was playing. Are those what your talking about and do you need just one or all of them? Or do you need the generic 1st PZ long campaign xml in the random campaigns dir?

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:19:28 PM   
miller41


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quote:

Visibility to the side and rear for tanks is really poor. I've come up behind a (group of) T-34('s) twice without it spotting me in time to do something about my tanks before it was too late. Generally, if you're going to make a move that exposes side armour, make sure there's at least some cover from the terrain or that you're driving through a part of the terrain that's lower than the rest.


Yeh, got that death is a great teacher, and I continued on despite that, because it made sense. It was the inf gun in the building that had me doing backflips

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:20:04 PM   
junk2drive


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The team has played the tutorial battle a million times and seems to be able to take out the Russian ATGs without much trouble. Of course that is without infantry. I haven't seen the problem with ATGs but that doesn't mean it does not exist. I do know that area fire with 37 or 50mm guns does not do much and area fire at guns takes a lot of phases before taking out a gun.

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:24:03 PM   
junk2drive


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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

quote:

To upload a save, we need the scenario file if it is a random campaign and the save file in a zip file. Then click the orange "post reply" button and click the "click here to upload" text. Follow the prompts to locate the zip and upload then finish the post.


I went to the scenario dir and there are numerous XML files dated today when I was playing. Are those what your talking about and do you need just one or all of them? Or do you need the generic 1st PZ long campaign xml in the random campaigns dir?


In the scenarios folder there will be R with a circle around it followed by numbers. Those are the battles that the RCG generated for the campaign. If you were playing the first battle of the campaign we need that first file and the save that goes with it.

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 10:58:41 PM   
Mobius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

Can I ask what kind of gun is showing up in houses?


The Soviet 76mm infantry gun.

I don't think that gun is suppose to be allowed to go in houses. It may be included as an infantry unit when it shouldn't. The first mount location of two story buildings is the upper story and there's no way one of those is going to be hoisted up to the second story.

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/29/2011 11:15:05 PM   
miller41


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quote:

In the scenarios folder there will be R with a circle around it followed by numbers. Those are the battles that the RCG generated for the campaign. If you were playing the first battle of the campaign we need that first file and the save that goes with it.


hope i did this right, had to take the @ out of the filename to zip it. If it isn't right junkfile just let me know

Attachment (1)

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/30/2011 12:58:43 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
If its not a bug are ATGs meant to be this hard to take out even if they are dug in? Ive spent over ten turns on taking this single gun out with like 12 squads of infantry and ten tanks and three mortars. Difficulty is easy.

Also Im having spotting issues. I have 3 squads of inf 20m from the gun but they cant see it. The infantry is on lower ground but their heads are well above the gun so for gameplay purposes one would think they could see it.


A save file for this would also be very handy in terms of giving you a detailed response on whether you've found a bug or if we just have some advice.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/30/2011 2:31:18 AM   
junk2drive


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quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

quote:

In the scenarios folder there will be R with a circle around it followed by numbers. Those are the battles that the RCG generated for the campaign. If you were playing the first battle of the campaign we need that first file and the save that goes with it.


hope i did this right, had to take the @ out of the filename to zip it. If it isn't right junkfile just let me know


I need to figure out how to put the circle R back on.

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/30/2011 3:14:26 AM   
dazoline II


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quote:

ORIGINAL: junk2drive


quote:

ORIGINAL: miller41

quote:

In the scenarios folder there will be R with a circle around it followed by numbers. Those are the battles that the RCG generated for the campaign. If you were playing the first battle of the campaign we need that first file and the save that goes with it.


hope i did this right, had to take the @ out of the filename to zip it. If it isn't right junkfile just let me know


I need to figure out how to put the circle R back on.


Make a new random scenario, copy the circle R character and paste it into the name of the original.


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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/30/2011 3:34:07 AM   
junk2drive


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The random battles have a R the random campaigns have the ®

Anyway it worked but still CTD on me.

miller41 are you sure that the save is for the same battle? Check the time stamps and make sure that the file you zipped is the oldest provided that the save is for the first battle. Thanks

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RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/30/2011 9:52:15 PM   
Zakhal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zakhal
If its not a bug are ATGs meant to be this hard to take out even if they are dug in? Ive spent over ten turns on taking this single gun out with like 12 squads of infantry and ten tanks and three mortars. Difficulty is easy.

Also Im having spotting issues. I have 3 squads of inf 20m from the gun but they cant see it. The infantry is on lower ground but their heads are well above the gun so for gameplay purposes one would think they could see it.


A save file for this would also be very handy in terms of giving you a detailed response on whether you've found a bug or if we just have some advice.

Regards,

- Erik


I continued the game today and as soon as I started the first turn one my flanking t34 that was on equal elevation if not a bit higher popped the german 50mm atg with one shot. I guess next time Ill try bringing my tanks higher or use smoke rounds to blind the guns if available.

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(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 28
RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/30/2011 10:32:16 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 12514
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline
AT guns don't like mortars either.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

Founder of HSG scenario design group for Combat Mission.
Panzer Command Ostfront Development Team.
Flashpoint Campaigns: Red Storm Development Team.

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 29
RE: Tageting AI is ruining any fun for me - 5/30/2011 10:35:37 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12898
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: offline
MR says that after I took out his PaK 36 with my Russian 50mm mortars. Buttoned up his tank with area fire too.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 30
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