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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (no Q-Ball please)

 
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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/2/2011 10:37:51 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Yes it seems limiting for sure.

I started another 41-45 campaign to test out new rules myself seeing they will stick I am sure. I have figured out a few roses in the thorns testing during 1942 with my game vs Larry, but wanted to test it out from turns 1 - 18 to see how it works. I can still cross the dnepr on turn 3 :) in more then one spot. The reds are all running for the hills the first 3 to 5 turns because they are exploiting the new hq rules. Totally not historical, but I do same exploit if I played the SHC side. Until the rail system is nerfed to something close to historical their is zero reason for the russian player to fight.

I am closely watching your game an beleive that you should beable to get to the Leningrad,Tula, Kursk,Kharkov to Rostov line by turn 18. But the number of factories your able to bag will be much lower then the past rule set and historical (50% of over run citys) and dead reds seem to be much lower also and not historical at all (4million). The rail system is way way over rated. Also nothing was railed back from the front or factories moved until at least 3 weeks after the start of the campiagn. If they want to keep the rail system insanely high they need to freeze it for 2 turns and then 50% turn 3 or something like that. Stalin was having his nervous breakdown the first 2 weeks.

Pelton

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 91
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/2/2011 5:19:09 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Turn 12.

The pocket in the north was unfortunately broken by a single obnoxious cavalry division. Pocket now resealed, and the panzers move southeast, in preparation for the final drive on Moscow. I do have the feeling that the Soviets have been prioritizing defense in the South, and there might be a fair chance to capture Moscow...

In the center, forward units have arrived outside Tula, just in time to see the last train loaded with indiustrial machinery disappear on the horizon! Typically, it is the non-fuel dependent 1st Cavalry Division in the lead.

Army group south is continuing the advance as well, but supply problems and determined Soviet resistance is slowing the pace. The leading panzers turn northeast, so as to threaten both Kharkov and Stalino.

Map of front after German moves turn 12.




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 6/2/2011 5:20:36 PM >

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 92
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/3/2011 2:35:35 AM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		6 more turns. Your doing very good so far. Yes you have a good shot at Moscow.

Nice pocket, is that going to get you to 3 million?

Yes the supplies are a huge bottle neck. You almost have to fight close to the railheads. Which makes defending even easyer.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 93
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/3/2011 4:22:44 AM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1873
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Nice job on the advance, especially against a player the caliber of Q-Ball.

That southern section of river in the south is going to likely be a pain if you can't get it cleaned out by winter unfortunately. Just not enough troops to go around and tough to pay attention to it when things are going well elsewhere.

(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 94
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/3/2011 4:27:18 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12069
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline 		You have your railheads well along there. I might have taken the southern central one southeast from Gomel as that area can be a real bear for supply during mud, but otherwise nicely setup.

IMO a Kursk-Kharkov pocket would do tremendous damage to the Soviets, maybe even more so than taking Moscow. It would require diverting 2nd panzer from the Moscow push of course, but I would consider it if I were you. And you still might be able to pull off Moscow by using 3rd and 4th panzers for a push from east of Rzhev.


< Message edited by Mynok -- 6/3/2011 4:28:55 AM >

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(in reply to Pelton)
Post #: 95
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/3/2011 9:14:54 AM   
Tarhunnas


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From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

You have your railheads well along there. I might have taken the southern central one southeast from Gomel as that area can be a real bear for supply during mud, but otherwise nicely setup.

IMO a Kursk-Kharkov pocket would do tremendous damage to the Soviets, maybe even more so than taking Moscow. It would require diverting 2nd panzer from the Moscow push of course, but I would consider it if I were you. And you still might be able to pull off Moscow by using 3rd and 4th panzers for a push from east of Rzhev.



Yes, the Kursk - Kharkov pocket is what I would like to do, but a) I think Q-ball is too smart not to pull back in time and b) that area is a supply wasteland, and without HQ buildup, I won't be able to pull it off.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 96
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/3/2011 9:19:46 AM   
Tarhunnas


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From: Hex X37, Y15
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Klydon

Nice job on the advance, especially against a player the caliber of Q-Ball.

That southern section of river in the south is going to likely be a pain if you can't get it cleaned out by winter unfortunately. Just not enough troops to go around and tough to pay attention to it when things are going well elsewhere.



Some of the pace of advance is due to Q-ball pulling back.

Yes, I agree the area north of the Crimea will likely be a problem, but I can't afford the forces and there is nothing there worth taking. The Donbass and Kharkov has tons of industry that he will have problems to evacuate in time, so I will put the pressure there.

Anyway, so he recaptures Zaporozhye during the winter, it will just make a juicy target bulge for a 1942 offensive (I hope).

(in reply to Klydon)
Post #: 97
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/3/2011 1:57:29 PM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1873
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Just sort of noticed, you are real close to cutting rail lines to that big bulge in the center. The southern junction is 5 hexes in along the river from where you flipped the territory in the south. If you can get to or behind Kursk in the north, that kills the rail lines and should put those Russians in the bulge in a bad way logistics wise.

It may not have a lot in there, but that is a huge amount of territory to flip in your favor to give you some manuvering room during winter not to mention shortening up your lines by a lot.

Tough decisions for the Germans with time running out. Should be an exciting several turns coming up.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 98
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 1:07:51 AM   
Mynok


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You can still do the Kursk-Kharkov pocket. You will only need one buildup IMO and that is for 2nd panzer.


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Post #: 99
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 12:20:58 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Turn 13.

XXXVI and XXXVII panzer corps of 2d Panzer Group were finally within range of the railhead to get a buildup last turn. They launch a right hook towards Moscow, and much to everyones surprise, 10th Motorized Divison rolls into Moscow, while 29th Motorized links up with 3d Panzer Group that is attacking southeast from Kalinin. Moscow is captured and the entire Soviet Western Front is cut off. The encirclement is loose however, and those divisions of 2d Panzer Group are probably in for a hard time, but it will be worth it!




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 6/4/2011 12:22:21 PM >

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 100
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 12:25:05 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		In the South, the panzers break out to the northwest. SS Wiking Division kicks a Soviet airborne division out of Kharkov and captures the city. Meanwhile, 9th Panzer Division is just one hex from cutting off the Soviet South Front.

Comment: I could have sent the Wiking to complete the encirclement, it had the MPs, but I opted for a shot at Kharkov instead, as there was a lot of industry left.




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(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 101
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 12:31:10 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Don't know what happened really, suddenly I broke through on every front. Don't know if you have the expression "ketchup effect" in English, we have it in Swedish, you shake and shake and nothing happens, and then suddenly there comes a whole lot! That is what it felt like. Here is a summary of industry destroyed this turn. And there is more in the other two hexes at Moscow that will have a hard time to evacuate.




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 6/4/2011 12:32:29 PM >

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 102
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 12:34:04 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Losses turn 13. Still not very impressive, but I guess that will pick up the next few turns.




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(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 103
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 2:16:39 PM   
Ketza


Posts: 2016
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline 		Wow nice developments for you. Well played! This will be a great read over the next few months.

It boggles my mind however that players leave cities in a position to be overrun.

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 104
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 3:28:05 PM   
Klydon

 

Posts: 1873
Joined: 11/28/2010
Status: offline 		Just wow. Terrific job Tarhunnas! Even if you wind up taking a beating/losing some units, losing that much industry should hurt the Russians a lot I would think. To put it in perspective, that is about 10% of the Russian armaments that just got put out of action. You also still have a couple of turns to clean up the pockets yet and get your line fairly short coming into mud except in the south around the Crimea. The river line will be fine during the mud, but winter could pose an issue there.

Well played sir!

(in reply to Ketza)
Post #: 105
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 5:30:08 PM   
Flaviusx


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Status: offline 		I would be resigning as the Soviet here.



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Post #: 106
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 5:51:46 PM   
Ketza


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From: Columbia, Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

I would be resigning as the Soviet here.




Is it really that bad?

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 107
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 10:14:40 PM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5745
Joined: 9/9/2009
Status: offline 		As I see it, unless Tarhunnas has a serious brainfart, he has a lock on a minor victory, minimum. These losses in rail cap, manpower, and industry are deep and probably irrecoverable. It's unlikely he can outright knock out the Soviets from the war, but the Soviets aren't getting Berlin here.





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Post #: 108
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/4/2011 10:54:13 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2450
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From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

As I see it, unless Tarhunnas has a serious brainfart, he has a lock on a minor victory, minimum. These losses in rail cap, manpower, and industry are deep and probably irrecoverable. It's unlikely he can outright knock out the Soviets from the war, but the Soviets aren't getting Berlin here.


OTOH the Russian losses are still VERY light. And the Germans are going very deep in the center and the south. There are a lot of possibilites for a really nasty Soviet Blizzard Offensive. As you say, if Tarhunnas rolls with the attack and perserves his force, we are looking, at the worst, at something like the Somme on the Dnieper in 44. At the best, he has a shot at AV in 43. I do believe that this supports the early contention that a Sir Robinisky Defense is very risky against a good player

Over all, most impressive Tarhunnas.

BTW, I still keep reading the the Germans might as well resign after Turn 1 because they don't have a prayer now that HQ Buildup is nerfed

(in reply to Flaviusx)
Post #: 109
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/5/2011 5:19:25 AM   
sath

 

Posts: 424
Joined: 2/21/2010
Status: offline 		Wow that a lot of industry. That's what 41 barb is all about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Don't know what happened really, suddenly I broke through on every front. Don't know if you have the expression "ketchup effect" in English, we have it in Swedish, you shake and shake and nothing happens, and then suddenly there comes a whole lot! That is what it felt like. Here is a summary of industry destroyed this turn. And there is more in the other two hexes at Moscow that will have a hard time to evacuate.





(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 110
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/5/2011 5:38:56 AM   
Flaviusx


Posts: 5745
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Status: offline 		Pompack, I anticipate Soviet losses will pick up markedly in the next few weeks before mud hits and these pockets get consumed. Germans have a full month of clear weather to chew up the Soviets, and they are past most of the easily defensible terrain. The Soviet for his part is now trapped in a terrible feedback loop where he has much industry within reach of the panzers and at the same time needs to massively redeploy his army; all this on a rail network that is severely weakened.

But, honestly, what matters in the long run isn't these casualties. It's the replacement situation. In this case, an abysmal one. You cannot grow the Red Army very easily with these kinds of losses, nor can you shift it around quickly with a rail net that is now down to 60% of its original efficiency. These are strategic, long term losses.

However, I'm glad to see this game proved once and for all, I hope, that Sir Robin isn't the answer. It never was. We testers knew this long ago and I never took the Sir Robin nonsense seriously.



< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 6/5/2011 5:40:18 AM >

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/5/2011 2:26:06 PM   
Sabre21


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Status: offline 		I agree with Flavio about the Sir Robin strategy. I have never seen a tester that used this strategy last long at all.

As for giving up though, i wouldn't yet. The Soviet army is pretty resilent despite taking a severe beating. We'll just have to see what it looks like come blizzard time. As a German player, I would keep the pressure on all the way until blizzard too.

< Message edited by Sabre21 -- 6/5/2011 2:31:30 PM >

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Post #: 112
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/5/2011 6:55:19 PM   
Pelton


Posts: 4355
Joined: 4/9/2006
Status: offline 		Very nice. From my exp if you take Leningrad/Moscow/Tula/Kursh/Orel ect ect to Rostov the Russian winter O is really poor. The german losses will be low and once summer hits your panzers will be at full strength and you rip through whatever line he puts up, if you have 2 large spearheads.

I have to agree with Flaviusx, with the losses of industry ect its over unless T really screws up during the winter.

You probably did not bag as much stuff under 1.04.22 as before it, but its more then enough for at least a minor win.

Nice job.

Pelton

(in reply to Sabre21)
Post #: 113
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/7/2011 9:40:04 PM   
neuromancer


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From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
Don't know what happened really, suddenly I broke through on every front. Don't know if you have the expression "ketchup effect" in English, we have it in Swedish, you shake and shake and nothing happens, and then suddenly there comes a whole lot!


Haven't heard the expression, but the concept is certainly understandable. And I'm sure something many people older than say about 15 has likely experienced.

Closest we have (that I can think of) is 'the dam breaking'. Cracking, groaning, trickles of water, and then suddenly: WOOSH!

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 114
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/9/2011 7:44:23 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Turn 14. Not much new happening. Most activity in AGC turns on rescuing the exploiting Panzers. It is possible to open a supply route to all of them except 10th Motorized, now surrounded in the northern suburbs of Moscow. It is not possible to reseal the pocket however, but I hadn't really expected that. The place is crawling with angry Soviets. Like poking a stick in ant-heap. Might be possible next turn though...




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(in reply to neuromancer)
Post #: 115
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/9/2011 7:47:03 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		In the South, the pocket is closed, but most of the Soviets were able to escape the trap. The Wiking was surrounded in Kharkov, but a supply path has been opened.




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(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 116
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/9/2011 7:48:46 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Losses are depressingly low... eh Soviet losses that is.




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(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 117
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/9/2011 11:04:47 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		Turn 15.

In the Moscow area, there is a new breakthrough north of Moscow. Advancing motorized units capture Ivanovo, with its industry still in place, and almost Vladimir (didn't have the MPs to enter the city after kicking out the defenders). However, it was not possible to reseal the encirclement, and many of the Moscow defenders are oozing out eastwards. Overall, I feel I did some mistakes and didn't use the opportunities as good as I could have.




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(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 118
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/9/2011 11:08:21 PM   
Tarhunnas


Posts: 2945
Joined: 1/27/2011
From: Hex X37, Y15
Status: offline 		In the South, about 10 Soviet divisions are encircled southwest of Kharkov. Otherwise not much happening. I will have to turn southeast to capture the Donbass cities next turn, but Q-Ball has built up a very strong defense there.

The area north of the Criema is feeling like a problem about to happen, I do not really trust the Rumanians to hold that front if the Sovs start to feel offensive down there.




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(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 119
RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 6/9/2011 11:59:38 PM   
neuromancer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas
The area north of the Criema is feeling like a problem about to happen, I do not really trust the Rumanians to hold that front if the Sovs start to feel offensive down there.


I generally don't trust the Rumanians to hold my coat in 1941! Poor morale and equipment, many units under strength, generally not good. I have no idea if they are fairly represented in the game or not, although this is one of the weakest representations I have seen in any game.

Oddly in the winter I find their mountain brigades quite useful, but I let them sit and refit until October or Novemeber (except for the first few weeks of the campaign of course) so they get their morale up and are in the high 90s TOE wise when they hit the front.


Very impressive advancement to be certain. How's the supply situation?

(in reply to Tarhunnas)
Post #: 120
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