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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (no Q-Ball please)

 
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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/26/2011 3:26:46 PM   
Sabre21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas


quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21
I would reckon it was a tester that came up with the idea, and yes I know who. It used to be a lot worse (and still can be), I really wish there was a way to keep this from being the standard move, bit if not this, players would figure out something else just as entertaining.


One suggestion to that end would be a non-historical game start where both sides would be allowed to relocate units (i.e. limited number, and limited areas where to) before start. Force dispositions less clear, and so the games will be less straight forward. Just an idea for future patches.


Yes, that would be an interesting idea! Another one would be a slight randomization of the starting positions of Soviet units behind the front line.


That would be ok between 2 players, but against the ai, the first turn ai scripting would be a nightmare to create.

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/26/2011 3:38:13 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sabre21
That would be ok between 2 players, but against the ai, the first turn ai scripting would be a nightmare to create.


Probably, and require a very powerful scripting language to write. Pretty much a mini-AI for the first turn itself.
Tarhunnas, sorry for hijacking your AAR, btw. Like your AAR style, and I am curious how you will beat Q-Ball. ;-)

< Message edited by janh -- 5/26/2011 3:39:57 PM >

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/26/2011 8:20:09 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Turn 4.

This is weird! The All Russian Disappearing Act has struck again! Look at the front before recon and German moves! Where have they all gone? And the same thing in the south. Well, I guess the recon pilots will have to find out (which will take an hour in 1.04.22 *sigh*).




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/27/2011 3:52:26 AM   
Sabre21


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tarhunnas

Turn 4.

This is weird! The All Russian Disappearing Act has struck again! Look at the front before recon and German moves! Where have they all gone? And the same thing in the south. Well, I guess the recon pilots will have to find out (which will take an hour in 1.04.22 *sigh*).





This was the common Soviet strategy when I began testing 2 1/2 years ago. They would fall back to some point, typically the Vyzama to Kharkov north south line, and entrench units in a carpet hoping they would be well dug in by the time the Germans could get there. Some of the guys refer to it as the Sir Robinsky strategy. The downside was the Germans moved unimpeded to that defensive line with little to no loss well before the Soviets could really dig in and easily break thru it.

Soviet strategy shifted then to the forward deployed use of the checkerboard followed by a series of linear defenses ending in a carpet around Moscow and other key objectives.

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/27/2011 5:40:11 AM   
Tarhunnas


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And here is an overview of the front after German moves turn 4.

All in all things are looking good. In the North, the 6th Panzer Division has established a bridgehead over the Luga (this was made possible by a HQ buildup of one corps), while the XXXIX Panzer Corps is threatening a right hook.

In the center, good progress on the landbridge, and we are across the Dnepr in force, forming a small pocket in the river bend in the process.

The South, the panzers race for Kirovograd, which is taken against no opposition. The industry was unfortunately already evacuated.




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/27/2011 7:57:26 PM >

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/27/2011 5:59:09 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Losses and OOB after German turn 4.

Soviet losses in men are only slightly lower than normal, but in AFVs I would say they are low. No doubt the withdrawing strategy is causing this. 755 axis tanks lost already is a bit worrying.




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/27/2011 6:01:39 AM >

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/27/2011 7:59:27 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Turn 5.

The Lehr brigade takes a beating in a Soviet counterattack, thereby letting open a supply route to the surrounded Soviets in the river bend. The Fuhrer sends a message to the Lehr brigade: Do not fail me again (read in a throaty voice).





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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/27/2011 8:01:11 PM >

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/27/2011 8:02:29 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Turn 5.

The Leningrad front after German moves. Good progress towards Leningrad. We are over the Luga in force, but resistance is getting stronger...




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/27/2011 8:05:27 PM   
Tarhunnas


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Center turn 5 after German moves.

Pocket resealed, some pressing forward, otherwise not much happening. The Panzers can only make limited progress on their own, infantry moving up though.




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/27/2011 8:09:50 PM   
Tarhunnas


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The South after German moves. Nothing dramatic. The Reds are apparently hiding behind the Dnepr. Well, we will cross that river when we reach it .

In the far south, the Rumanians as usual have problems taking even undefended terrain! Can they even march in step?




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/28/2011 12:43:26 AM   
Pelton

 

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Not much reason for him to fight in the front, as long as he are pulling back production units from every city other then Leningrad. The Russian player simply needs to fall back not letting you capture anyone, because of the short 20 mp hq build up. Hes fallen back to just over your limits and should be able to counter attack allot. Your MP's will be low so you can't do anything major other then pound out a few hexs with tanks.

Citys are window dressing, really meanless objectives as long as the russain player evacs production he be fine. Citys seem to be political in this game, only meaning something to the players.

You can bag Leningrad/Moscow/Kursk/Kharkov to Rostov kill 3 to 4 million Russians and he still have 5 to 6 million come winter and geared up just fine, IF he moved his production. Which he should be able to with all the rail points he gets. Seems to be no penilty for moving production unlike Fire in the East 12 months lost production.

AGN:Nice moves on your part so far in the North, I thk hes testing 1.04.22 to see what he can get away with. Leningrad is a must and tthe only city on the map that really means something.

AGC: I dont see why you have so much armor in the center? You can get to the river with allot less armor and there is nothing in the center other then Moscow, which if hes smart you never destory any of the production units.

AGS: There is not enough armor down here I beleive. The majority of production you can effect is in the south. Also the terrain is great for pockets, so you should be able to drop some production and drop some troops.

Your openings were really good, I learnt allot.

Pelton

< Message edited by Pelton -- 5/28/2011 12:55:17 AM >

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/28/2011 2:15:13 AM   
Mynok


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Still whinging I see.


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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/28/2011 11:40:56 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Turn 6.

Leningrad front after German moves. Rail connections to Leningrad cut, and some of the industry is still there...




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/28/2011 11:42:27 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Cop fight! In a brilliant bout of truncheon fencing, our sec unit beats their sec unit! Our security beats their security - any time!




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/28/2011 11:46:56 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Central part of front after German moves. A new mid-size pocket formed south of Smolensk. I don't think it can be broken.




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/28/2011 11:49:58 AM   
Tarhunnas


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An the South after Axis moves turn 6. Panzers rolling on towards Dnepropetrovsk. The Reds appear to be defending the river in force. With their center crumbling and panzers at Dnepropetrovsk, that position will soon be irrelevant. But if they stay, so much the better...




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/28/2011 4:21:50 PM   
majeloz

 

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Very helpful AAR -- am playing a game against a similar defensive strategy -- what I call the Dnepr Deathline :). Is actually giving me some interesting ideas for a radical new strategy.

Where is your 11th Army FBD>? (eg what route is it taking)


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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/28/2011 4:33:51 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: majeloz

Very helpful AAR -- am playing a game against a similar defensive strategy -- what I call the Dnepr Deathline :). Is actually giving me some interesting ideas for a radical new strategy.

Where is your 11th Army FBD>? (eg what route is it taking)



Thanks! See my previous German AAR, the Wolf and the Bear, the Soviets tried something similar in the South (though not in the North and Centre) and that didn't work out too well for them in the end.

The FBD is near Odessa. I usually take the Kishinev - Odessa - Nikolaev - Zaporozhye route.

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/28/2011 4:48:58 PM   
majeloz

 

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The interesting alternative is to use the more northerly route. Having to get through Odessa can be a pain if the Russian really wants to keep you out; and, if you go northerly, you can help supply the middle panzers. But, the downside is you give away a realistic shot at the Crimea if you do it the other way.

Keep up the pressure! You are going to bust him in the centre soon I think...it feels he has committed more to the south.

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 11:23:47 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Turn 7. A rather uneventful turn.

In the north, completed the severing of communications to Leningrad, but his defenses are strong, good fort levels both in the City and along the Volchov. This will not be easy.

In the center I eliminated the pocket south of Smolensk, and I sense that I am now coming up against his main line of resistance, apparently running roughly along the line Rzhev, Vyazma, Bryansk.

Down South, rolling along eastwards towards the Dnepr bend. Odessa fell.

Overview after German moves.




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 11:28:07 AM   
Tarhunnas


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Losses turn 7. Soviet losses somewhat on the light side, no doubt due to the robinsky-like defense.




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 11:28:56 AM   
Tarhunnas


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And destroyed units, same here.




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 11:55:53 AM   
Flaviusx


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Q-ball is a good player, but as always, I think that Soviet runaways are a bad idea. Particularly now that factory evacuation costs have increased.

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 12:07:38 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Q-ball is a good player, but as always, I think that Soviet runaways are a bad idea. Particularly now that factory evacuation costs have increased.


He has managed to time it very well! The only factories I have taken so far are Minsk and Mogilev, plus there is a remnant left in Leningrad. There are no ones within easy reach either, there was in Bryansk this turn, but there was no way I could reach them, and I am pretty sure they will be gone next turn. Overall, I think his strategy is working pretty well so far. I am a little forward of where I usually am at this time, especially in the South, but I don't think that is significant.

< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/29/2011 12:08:15 PM >

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 12:11:55 PM   
Flaviusx


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Yeah, but crunch time is coming. Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye take several turns to evacuate and you are knocking at the door. I'm not sure he can get the stuff out of there in time, and there's a lot of it.

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 12:25:49 PM   
Tarhunnas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Yeah, but crunch time is coming. Dnepropetrovsk and Zaporozhye take several turns to evacuate and you are knocking at the door. I'm not sure he can get the stuff out of there in time, and there's a lot of it.


I wish that was the case, but Dnepropetrovsk is empty and Zaporozhye only has some HI left. Bryansk and Ordzhonikidzegrad are full and within reach next turn, but he will be able to evacuate both those and Zaporozhye I think. No, I don't see any easy pickings the next few turns unfortunately.

I cannot use HQ buildup (20-25) MP from railhead, but that is not the real limitation, a HQ buildup is wasted if there is no infantry to create a hole. So, no sudden breakthroughs that can snatch a city or two either, at least not for a couple of turns.

Leningrad is so well fortified I am not sure I will be able to take it, or at least it will take lots of time. The rest of the front, I will just have to close up on his line with the infantry and hope I can do a buildup and blast a hole for some pockets and catch some industry around turn 9 or 10. Not trying to sound gloomy here, but Q-Balls defense is working really well, and I can't see anything I could have done much differently that would have changed things.

Edit: This shot is from a mid turn save, I did not leave that HQ like that (I hope ).




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< Message edited by Tarhunnas -- 5/29/2011 12:34:55 PM >

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 12:32:38 PM   
Flaviusx


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Interesting. And somewhat surprising. He must really be skimping on railing units in order to do this. Dnepropetrovsk alone is 146k rail cap to get the factories out -- that's the entire Soviet rail cap for one turn right there.

Keep up the pressure, and you may yet catch him. Stalino and Kharkov are also big rail cap sinks. So is Tula.

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 12:50:43 PM   
Tarhunnas


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For completeness, here is a composite pic showing what's left in Leningrad. He has managed to get most of it out there too.

The thing is, it's not very expensive in rail cap to rail shell inf divs, so there is not all that much to save even if all the eastern divisions walk to the front.




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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 2:12:11 PM   
Ketza


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In is pretty easy as the Soviet player to evac everything I am finding. Just plan a turn or so in advance and toss a couple of units in the Axis way and rail it out.

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RE: The Anti Bolshevik Crusade - Tarhunnas vs Q-Ball (n... - 5/29/2011 2:12:42 PM   
Pelton

 

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See Mynok based on observations and data not complaining ( open a dictonary and read the difference you seem very confused) Q-Ball has been able to evac close to 95% of his production and pull back his troops from the bog, dispite Tarhunnas great game play upto this turn.

The Russian rail system is way over powered. then coupled with patch 1.04.22 its kind of a joke.

As I have been stating from day one when 1.04.22 came out the HQ build-up of 20mp's is way to short and makes evacing prodution way to easy.

You can see the good gains Tarhunnas has made up to turn 2. Then hes out of HQ supply in the north and center an has to pound out a few hexs a turn until turn 6. This gives Q-ball basicly 4 free turns of evacing production and troops, because Tarhunnas is unable to put any real presure on q-ball other then in the south.

This AAR really points out if the Russian player understands the game mechanics as per IE patch 1.04.22 he can simply fall back beyond the HQ build up limits and evac everything and not even have to worry about large encirclments or many small ones for that matter.

There is nothing Tarhunnas can do about this dispite his good game play. I still can see Tarhunnas making some huge gains in the south if he turns his center attack south, which would prove me wrong as far as me disagreeing with his not putting more tanks in the southern spearhead. But at this point all the Russian production is evaced or to far out of reach for him to bag.

No whinning or complainning needed, just the simple oberservations of the data . Not sure how Mynok personal attacks IE whinning helps out the game?

Try to refute my observations based on data. I might be 100% wrong, but I am not seeing it in this AAR.

You could point out I need a little spell check love

Pelton



< Message edited by Pelton -- 5/29/2011 2:26:34 PM >

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