Matrix Games Forums

A look through the keyhole #10!The Age of Shadows on Distant Worlds starts now!Paypal System UpdateDistant Worlds: Shadows Final Teaser!Distant Worlds: Legends gets Updated!Recruiting Testers for Commander: the Great War on Mac!Armageddon invasion starts in 2014Command Rommels Panzers in Battle Academy!Servers UpdateThe Deal goes Fourth!		 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

Offensive Disadvantage is Dire

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Panzer Command: Ostfront >> Offensive Disadvantage is Dire Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 2:38:40 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3157
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		They say that unless surprised, the defender has a 3:1 advantage.

Well, my offensive skills in PCO leave much to be desired: should I play on "easy" mode, or just use-up my arty by laying smoke (if available)?

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II
Post #: 1
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 2:45:47 PM   
FNG


Posts: 513
Joined: 1/3/2002
From: Devizes, UK
Status: offline 		A few things that spring to mind:

Push infantry as far forward as you can to spot threats/call in artillery. I rush scout cars between cover where possible to reveal hidden threats. Concentrate your force wherever possible.

When I first played Winterstorm and Kharkov, I was regularly getting my @ss handed to me in a hat. I guess like most games, once you get the feel for it things improve dramatically. Good luck!

Edit: Speed kills. Advance and Bound are good ways to keep armour alive.

< Message edited by FNG -- 5/23/2011 2:46:39 PM >

_____________________________

FNG
Our doubts are traitors, and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 2
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 3:40:22 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 8729
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		If you are on the attack there's no need to move all your units the first turn. Send a few ahead to see where the enemy is. Also, don't wait until you get a good clean shot on the enemy infantry if you find that they are firing at you. Use some of your firepower to area fire on their positions. Infantry have plenty of ammo, use some to try to suppress them. AT guns too can be knocked out by HE area fire. Or at least made to pause for awhile.

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!

(in reply to FNG)
Post #: 3
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 3:59:45 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 3157
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		Tnx for the advice, but a few observations from personal experience with Kharkov.

Unless motorized, infantry moves slowly over large areas, and I don't always get scout cars.

I've used both "Advance" and "Bound," but I'm wondering if the latter is safer?
Maybe I should try a "V" formation for my Axis armour?

Not moving all my Axis units at the start could result in high losses during a first-turn Soviet barrage.

Comparing the Kharkov tutorial with the PCO version, Soviet AT guns seem much more effective now, or were they simply up-gunned for the new game?

Anyway, PCO is a welcomed challenge, but continually losing in offensive battles the Axis historically won will eventually get frustrating.

Maybe PCO will patch a Guderian modifier? I could use an experienced panzer commander.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Mobius)
Post #: 4
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 4:39:49 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 8729
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		In the Karkov scenario you may have to reposition in the set up to pull back out of sight of the Soviet artillery observers.

The AT guns are a little harder to hit in PCO as hull down in gun pits protect fully the lower parts of the AT gun. Use artillery on them plus use AP on them if they can be sighted or use HE area fire when they can't. Light 20mm guns can also be used against AT guns. As well as anti-tank rifles and 50mm mortars.

Now on the other side if you play Russians they have good anti-tank rifles which can be turned into AT-gun killers if they can get close.




_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 5
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 4:50:14 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 6968
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Unless motorized, infantry moves slowly over large areas, and I don't always get scout cars.


I have yet to find a use for the trucks, most maps are too small or feature too exposed terrain to consider placing infantry in something as vulnerable as a truck. They might have their uses on 2000mx2000m maps, though.

I'd say the usefulness of scout cars really depends on what kind you get. If you're the Soviets, your scout cars generally have reasonably decent armour and pack a decent punch early in the war, but as soon as they switch to BA-20's and BA-64's, you end up with an armoured MG with limited mobility. I haven't really found a use for the Sd.Kfz. 222's yet, as their armour is so thin that everybody and their mothers will start firing at them, which buttons them up, which in turn means that they will have a lesser Sighting value than an unbuttoned tank (even with their scout bonus). I guess I could work with the Sd.Kfz 231 or late war armoured cars or halftracks as they offer more mobility and/or protection.

quote:

I've used both "Advance" and "Bound," but I'm wondering if the latter is safer?
Maybe I should try a "V" formation for my Axis armour?


Unless the map's flat as a pancake, I'd advise against using Bound with vehicles as it can quickly lead to situations where the lead tank is fired at by something the rest of the tanks can't see. The effect of grass and undergrowth on LOS can be quite substantial it seems. I generally move my tanks in a line, and although that presents more targets to the enemy, it also allows me to concentrate fire on the same target with more than 1 tank.

I've more or less stopped using Advance and now mostly use Engage>Move and Defend>Move or Rush if I want my tanks to go somewhere in a hurry.

quote:

Not moving all my Axis units at the start could result in high losses during a first-turn Soviet barrage.


There won't be a turn 1 (or turn 3 or so, due to the orders delay if they can't spot something in the first orders phase) barrage if they can't see your units. Due to the Soviets getting substantial amounts of heavy artillery in my random campaign, I try to keep most of my units hidden or moving on turn 1 now.

I'd suggest advancing fairly slowly and methodically until you know where the main threats are located and until they've been disabled, unless you can use the terrain to your advantage. This might be the Blitzkrieg, but like the excerpts from the training manual in the loading screen make clear: being hasty is never an excuse for taking losses. Take your time.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 5/23/2011 4:51:31 PM >

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 6
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 11:29:36 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		The biggest thing I can tell you is to take it slow. You're not in a race.

You can start to maneuver a lot after you determine where the enemy is. Until then take your time. The 3F's work well in PCO.

Find them.
Fix them.
Finish them.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 7
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 11:37:08 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2491
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline 		Not that different from steel panthers? When I played that years ago I always bought tons of cheap scouts to send as first wave. And hide my troops to the last moment if possible. In meeting engagements there was always race for hills/high ground.

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 8
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 11:43:10 PM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I don't know about other systems or even other's scenarios, but when I do Meeting Engagements they aren't a rush to the flag.

Historically, Meeting Engagements have two objectives.

1) Take ground.

2) Destroy enemy units while keeping your own losses as minimal as possible.

Take ground to me doesn't mean 1 square meter of it. It means several points of the dominating terrain on the map. That keeps an ME from becoming a race to the flag everytime.

Destroy enough enemy units and you get to take ground pretty easily.

Maybe we need to start a scenario design thread here like The Proving Grounds has.

If there's enough of an interest that could be done.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 9
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/23/2011 11:50:42 PM   
Zakhal


Posts: 2491
Joined: 1/4/2001
From: Jyväskylä, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Take ground to me doesn't mean 1 square meter of it. It means several points of the dominating terrain on the map. That keeps an ME from becoming a race to the flag everytime.

In steel panthers the most central high ground often was the dominating terrain. You could hide behind it, do shoot and scoot and spot artillery fire. The one who reached it first often won.

Of course it depends on the scenario map. The random maps I played in spwaw always had some hills.

< Message edited by Zakhal -- 5/23/2011 11:56:11 PM >

_____________________________

"99.9% of all internet arguments are due to people not understanding someone else's point. The other 0.1% is arguing over made up statistics."- unknown poster
"Those who dont read history are destined to repeat it."– Edmund Burke

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 10
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 12:58:29 AM   
MarkShot


Posts: 6537
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		I wanted to ask does getting flanked positionally and receiving fire from multiple directions have an added negative impact on defenders?

I thought I asked this a couple of years ago and the answer was "no". But I'll ask again.

Thanks.

_____________________________

Panther Games (RDOA/HTTR/COTA/BFTB) Beta Tester

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 11
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 1:00:32 AM   
thewood1

 

Posts: 505
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I find keeping the SOP for recon helps the "recon by death" issue in most tactical games.  Keep in mind this is tactical recon and not strategic recon.  You know contact is right around every corner.

(in reply to Zakhal)
Post #: 12
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 1:14:15 AM   
Mad Russian


Posts: 10238
Joined: 3/16/2008
From: Texas
Status: offline 		There could be some scenarios right around the next corner that do a plausible job of highlighting recon units.

Dangerous Information is a adaption of an old ASL scenario that uses recon in a bit different setting as well.

Good Hunting.

MR


_____________________________

The most expensive thing in the world is free time.

(in reply to thewood1)
Post #: 13
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 2:21:05 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12675
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		RE Steel Panthers, IGOUGO plays different that WEGO when it comes to objectives. First turn often gets to the objective first.

PCO does not have a turn limit. There cannot be a flag rush with turns running out. Often the flags are worth 1 point and are just there to guide the AI. I have battled for a flag with a 30 point armoured car and my 2 point Russian troops. Trying to keep 15 squads alive against a MG equipped AC is not easy.

RE Trucks, I am playing an infantry campaign. I have a company of troops, some guns, 3 trucks and 3 platoons of MG34s. The last battle was on a 1k map with an orchard in the middle and trees on my side of the map. I set one MG platoon right, one left, one with the trucks in hiding. Later in the battle when I saw a need for MG support, I used the trucks to move the platoon. After that I received a reinforcement of a mortar platoon. I used the trucks to move them into place.
This ended up being a 45 turn battle and I was fairly sure that the enemy guns and OBA were out of the battle before moving the trucks. Trucks can be of use but when the time is right. A 20-30 turn battle, maybe not.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to Mad Russian)
Post #: 14
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 4:38:16 AM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12675
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		These are the tooltips that display for the different order types.

<resource id="Advance.tip"
value="Half Move with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Rush.tip" value="Fast Move with No Fire">
</resource>
<resource id="Charge.tip"
value="Fast Move with No Fire - No Stop for Casualties">
</resource>
<resource id="Bound.tip"
value="Alternating Normal Move with Cover Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Engage.tip" value="General Purpose Attack Order">
</resource>
<resource id="Regroup.tip" value="Reorganize Platoon Formation">
</resource>
<resource id="Regroup_Line.tip"
value="Fast Move to Line Formation with No Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Regroup_Column.tip"
value="Fast Move to Column Formation with No Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Regroup_Wedge.tip"
value="Fast Move to Wedge Formation with No Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Withdraw.tip" value="Reverse Move with Fire">
</resource>
<resource id="Defend.tip" value="General Purpose Defend Order">
</resource>
<resource id="Engage_Move.tip" value="Normal Move with Fire">
</resource>
<resource id="Engage_Hold.tip"
value="No Move with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Engage_Facing.tip"
value="Face Change with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Engage_Target.tip"
value="No Move with Individually Targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Defend_Stay.tip"
value="No Move with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Defend_Move.tip"
value="Slow Move with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Defend_Facing.tip"
value="Face Change with Auto-targeted Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Defend_HoldFire.tip" value="Hold Fire"></resource>
<resource id="Defend_HoldGood.tip"
value="Unless Good Shot to Target"></resource>
<resource id="Defend_HoldClose.tip"
value="Unless in Close Assault Range"></resource>
<resource id="Defend_HoldAll.tip" value="Hold All Fire">

Notice the ones with fire and no fire. Defend>Move is limited to 20m. I find it works well for sub squad orders once contact is made in woods and orchards. Better than nothing in clear.

_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to junk2drive)
Post #: 15
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 6:25:33 AM   
JMass


Posts: 2150
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.
I've used both "Advance" and "Bound," but I'm wondering if the latter is safer?


I prefer to use "Bound" in Meeting Engagements or when defending, "Advance" when I am the attacker.

_____________________________

"Klotzen, nicht Kleckern!"Generaloberst Heinz Wilhelm Guderian

Now playing, testing or modding: ATS, Ancient Warfare, CTGW, FoG, LnL HoS, PFE, Squad Battles, WWII-Europe
Idling: a lot of games...

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 16
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 12:37:56 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 6968
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Defend>Move is limited to 20m.


49(50) meters.

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to JMass)
Post #: 17
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 1:19:17 PM   
junk2drive


Posts: 12675
Joined: 6/27/2002
From: Arizona West Coast
Status: online 		You can tell that I have been playing with infantry and you have been with armour.

Manual
quote:

Maximum movement per
turn using this order is 50m for vehicles and 20m for troops.


_____________________________

Conflict of Heroes "Most games are like checkers or chess and some have dice and cards involved too. This game plays like checkers but you think like chess and the dice and cards can change everything in real time."

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 18
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 1:20:20 PM   
Mobius


Posts: 8729
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		Plus you only move in the orders phase. You halt in the reaction phase. Then finish your move in the next orders phase if the tank hasn't reached its final point.

< Message edited by Mobius -- 5/24/2011 1:21:26 PM >

_____________________________

All your Tanks are Belong to us!

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 19
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 1:56:40 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 6968
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

You can tell that I have been playing with infantry and you have been with armour.


Ah, yes, it makes sense that the limits are different.

_____________________________

SSG tester
WitE Alpha tester
Panzer Corps Beta tester
Unity of Command scenario designer

(in reply to Mobius)
Post #: 20
RE: Offensive Disadvantage is Dire - 5/24/2011 3:14:48 PM   
Rick

 

Posts: 11600
Joined: 4/20/2000
Status: offline
Also, when using the Bound Order, the moving units use Rush, not Normal move. This was a change from PCK.

As far as recieving flanking fire from two different directions; there is no additional 'bonus' to this situation, but it is the tactic I try to employ when trying to advance agains superior Armor. It's not easy to synchronize movement of tanks, but I do try to accomplish this, since the enemy tank can't be firing at the two different directions without spencing time rotating his turret.

Thanks
rick


(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 21
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Panzer Command: Ostfront >> Offensive Disadvantage is Dire Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.410