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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A)

 
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RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/12/2011 5:24:11 AM   
n01487477


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Rader - I can't give you any strategic advice as I've visited GreyJoy's thread and don't want to break OPSec. Having said that, I think there are some options for you still to consider and from what you've written might have overlooked.
quote:

ORIGINAL: rader

In defending home country cities from strat bombing, is it better to spread out the fighters on each base and set normal cap, or is it better to set most fighters to do short range LRCAP from larger bases like Tokyo? If I set all planes to something like 30-50 LRCAP at range 3-4, with only 10% or so normal CAP, am I going to get better reactions than if I set them to normal CAP over their own hex and hope they will leak into the combat hexes?

I think LRCAP is the wrong way to go.
  • it increases fatigue etc.
  • more ineffective

    I'd do this by :
  • Having radar at each base.
  • Dispersing some fighters, but then having some big fighter bases too.
  • Setting cap with target (I think this works)
  • Limiting range. Alt ??

    Anyway, this is an interesting Q, one I don't know the full answers to and I'll fire up the editor and get back to you hopefully in time before Japan is totally ablaze. Would love to hear from anyone else who has run some tests on this.
    quote:


    Also, if I turn on droptanks, I gather they will use more supply flying missions, but will they stay in the fight longer and/will there be more flying at a given time over the hex due to their improved endurance?

    That is not taken into account as far as I know. A dev would have to give a 100% answer, but I think it is just an abstraction in the 12 hour pulse.

    Good luck,

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    (in reply to rader)
  • Post #: 91
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/12/2011 6:33:55 AM   
    vicberg

     

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    You might try interlocking LRCAP, see how that works. At this point, you have so many targets he can hit, that it's a crap shoot. A couple turns of interlocking LRCAP (and fatigue) will give a picture.

    The other option is to look at your production and figure out the factories you want to defend. Give up the rest.

    Best option, IMO, is attempt to cut off his supply line to Hokkaido. Concentrate every sub, every ship and every air asset and the KB to closing down Hokkaido. If you aren't successful, it doesn't matter at this point. It's do or die. Every japanese player has taken note of this line of attack. It's deadly. He will hammer your production into the ground from short range. Doesn't matter how much territory you have. Your industry will die. He'll be taking Tokyo in a year.

    He has a long supply line at this point. He has lots he has to supply. You could possibly strike within range of your land based air, which might make an attack against his own carriers equal if they are in the area. Doubtful at this point of the game, but possible. I haven't seen how big the KB is at this point nor have I seen your pilot quality. You can use kamkazies. Focus everything on killing his supply line and that brings the Hokkaido campaign to a halt. Then you can possibly even counter attack. Slim chances, but possible.

    (in reply to rader)
    Post #: 92
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/12/2011 6:41:01 AM   
    n01487477


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: vicberg

    You might try interlocking LRCAP, see how that works. At this point, you have so many targets he can hit, that it's a crap shoot. A couple turns of interlocking LRCAP (and fatigue) will give a picture.

    The other option is to look at your production and figure out the factories you want to defend. Give up the rest.


    Sensible advice. +1
    quote:


    Best option, IMO, is attempt to cut off his supply line to Hokkaido. Concentrate every sub, every ship and every air asset and the KB to closing down Hokkaido. If you aren't successful, it doesn't matter at this point. It's do or die. Every japanese player has taken note of this line of attack. It's deadly. He will hammer your production into the ground from short range. Doesn't matter how much territory you have. Your industry will die. He'll be taking Tokyo in a year.

    He has a long supply line at this point. He has lots he has to supply. You could possibly strike within range of your land based air, which might make an attack against his own carriers equal if they are in the area. Doubtful at this point of the game, but possible. I haven't seen how big the KB is at this point nor have I seen your pilot quality. You can use kamkazies. Focus everything on killing his supply line and that brings the Hokkaido campaign to a halt. Then you can possibly even counter attack. Slim chances, but possible.

    vicberg - gotta like your thinking... And it's what I'd do.

    _____________________________

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    Post #: 93
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/12/2011 7:41:05 AM   
    vicberg

     

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    Quite frankly, this line of attack is far and away the best for the allied player. I'm not sure how it can be defended. It's close to allied bases, as anywhere in the pacific. Even if the japanese have been aggressive in the aluetions, it's still close to anchorage. Brutal if the allies land. There's aren't many jap bases to defend the assualt against. It requires unrestricted jap units (and PP points) to build up the bases that could possibly defend against it. The typical jap disposition has their forces usually in SRA or SOPAC or Burma, not northern Japan. The forces that are in japan are usually trainers and not nearly enough to defend against it. Even if it could be seen in advance, whether by aggressive japanese expansion into the aluetions or via long range recon, do th japs have the ability to respond before the allies hit? Especially in 44? Perhaps it the northern jap air bases are all level 9s, and then kamakazies with sufficient air forces nearby? Nasty.


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    Post #: 94
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/15/2011 12:49:22 AM   
    rader


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: vicberg

    Quite frankly, this line of attack is far and away the best for the allied player. I'm not sure how it can be defended. It's close to allied bases, as anywhere in the pacific. Even if the japanese have been aggressive in the aluetions, it's still close to anchorage. Brutal if the allies land. There's aren't many jap bases to defend the assualt against. It requires unrestricted jap units (and PP points) to build up the bases that could possibly defend against it. The typical jap disposition has their forces usually in SRA or SOPAC or Burma, not northern Japan. The forces that are in japan are usually trainers and not nearly enough to defend against it. Even if it could be seen in advance, whether by aggressive japanese expansion into the aluetions or via long range recon, do th japs have the ability to respond before the allies hit? Especially in 44? Perhaps it the northern jap air bases are all level 9s, and then kamakazies with sufficient air forces nearby? Nasty.



    I agree.

    You know, my original plan for this game was to stick to a very short preimeter running down the Marianas to (only) Western New Guinea around Biak, and into the DEI. I wasn't going to even fight for the Solomons or Eastern New Guinea. Greyjoy sucked me in!!!

    (in reply to vicberg)
    Post #: 95
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/15/2011 12:59:41 AM   
    rader


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    June 10, 1944.

    As the allies consolidate their landing in Normandy, the battle for the skies over Japan rages on. It's a slaughterhouse fight to the death. We are losing an average of around 40 planes a day. Thankfully these are mostly over home territory so many pilots are saved. But still, pilot and aircraft losses are essentially unsustainable.

    Thankfully, I think the Allied losses are also unsustainable in long range fighters and bombers. He is losing maybe 25-30 of these (combined) a day. This is a typical day of bombing (the pattern has generally one 2 day turn of bombing followed by a 2 day turn of rest - note that these losses are for 2 days of action).

    This pace of action can't be sustained forever by either side, and it's just a matter of time until one side breaks.

    The Japanese fighter industry has been hit hard. We've lost probably 600 factory points worth of fighter production in the last month. Most of the targets so far have been fighter R&D factories, and he has slaughtered my fighter R&D. The damaged factories are either not being rebuilt, or are being rebuilt as much smaller "R&D only" factories focussed on key types. It's not worth burning supplies rebuilding factoried in highly vulnerable cities. We're instead essentially abandoning these, and are going to concentrate on protecting factories in a few key cities where we can provide adequate defenses.






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    Post #: 96
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/15/2011 2:24:36 AM   
    pws1225

     

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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rader


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: vicberg

    Quite frankly, this line of attack is far and away the best for the allied player. I'm not sure how it can be defended. It's close to allied bases, as anywhere in the pacific. Even if the japanese have been aggressive in the aluetions, it's still close to anchorage. Brutal if the allies land. There's aren't many jap bases to defend the assualt against. It requires unrestricted jap units (and PP points) to build up the bases that could possibly defend against it. The typical jap disposition has their forces usually in SRA or SOPAC or Burma, not northern Japan. The forces that are in japan are usually trainers and not nearly enough to defend against it. Even if it could be seen in advance, whether by aggressive japanese expansion into the aluetions or via long range recon, do th japs have the ability to respond before the allies hit? Especially in 44? Perhaps it the northern jap air bases are all level 9s, and then kamakazies with sufficient air forces nearby? Nasty.



    I agree.

    You know, my original plan for this game was to stick to a very short preimeter running down the Marianas to (only) Western New Guinea around Biak, and into the DEI. I wasn't going to even fight for the Solomons or Eastern New Guinea. Greyjoy sucked me in!!!


    Well, I'll be damned!

    (in reply to rader)
    Post #: 97
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 12:51:01 AM   
    rader


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    Holy toledo! We set up a bit of a CAP trap over Maebeshi this turn, and the bombers obliged us by coming in before their sweeping fighters. It was a long running combat involving hundreds of fighters assaulting and harassing the bomber formation on the way in and out. If the total losses for the last turn are even close to accurate, it was a total slaughter. That sure will set back the allied strat bombing campaign.

    Actually, one good thing about the allies starting their strat bombing early, is that I can start shooting down allied bombers before the B-29s groups are fully filled out and before he has all the B-24 replacements he would have in 1945. It is certainly better for Japan to fight the allied air forces earlier rather than later, and with this all-in strat bombing strategy, I might actually have a better chance of keeping his bomber groups at manageable sizes...

    Although he has totally slaughterd my (planned) production of advanced fighters (Ki-83s, J7Ws, Karyus), and molested my Frank production. I can still crank out droves of crappy fighters (A6M5cs, Tonys, Tojos, and Oscars), and that is what I'm going to do. Eventually these will become (not so effective) surface to air missiles once they develop collision tactics in 1945 (they don't seem to be sacrificing themselves enough yet...).

    But I have a feeling this game is going to come down to boots on the ground in Honshu eventually. I just don't know if he will try to land soon in the North, try to go around and outflank for now with an amphibious operation, or sit back for a while and bomb...





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    Post #: 98
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 1:00:39 AM   
    rader


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    Meanwhile, we are preparing to receive an allied invasion of Honshu just in case. There's basically 3 categories of bases to defend, based on the number of allied troops that could reach them quickly and the amount of land-based air support that could be used to support the invasions. The most obvious place for him to land is directly opposite Hokkaido, where he could practically swim across. Or he could hit just a bit farther down the coast near Sendai/Iwaki with significant land-based air support and naval support, but this area is much more dominated by my air bases in the Tokyo region. A third alternative would be to try to go around and land somewhere down the coast where the defenses are lighter. Troops and defenses are being deployed according to the threat level.

    Alternatively, he could eschew Honshu (that rhymes!) altogether for now, and try to hit another area of the map (most likely Bonins/Ryukus/Formosa in support of the operation against Japan). So I do need to keep plenty of forces in reserve in case he does this. Saying I feel like I'm spread pretty thin is an understatement!




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    Post #: 99
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 6:59:42 AM   
    pauk


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    I would advise you not to be (over)confident about your's numerous air bases at HI. Allies will recive B29 soon, if they didnt already, and they can shut down your AFs. It will be much more difficult task than it was in Solomons, but with this current air model, "the bombers will always get trough" it is certainly doable. And he has many choices, he can put pressure on closer bases (within his fighter radius) and suddently attack your rear AFs which will be weaker defended (just one example)...

    You dont have many options, except massing base forces and construction units at Home islands. I would pull out all BFs from the frontline (Burma, southern DEI, New Britain...) and move them to Home islands (anyway, Allies can shut down all your AFs at the frontline, if they want (but i suspect they will be concentrated on HI). Ofc, i would leave a significant air support at your big hubs (Bangkok and nearby bases, Singapore, oil centers...)

    Where is KB at the moment? perhaps you could set an trap for Greyjoy... showing him near Hokkaido (so he will be careful with his supply transprots and navy, and he will have to strenghten his CAP - what means less fts on sweep over HI)

    After that you can run under the protection of one your bases.... if you get lucky he might attack KB. With KB fighters on CAP and support from land based FTs you might hurt him (i guess, not sure with this current air combat model).



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    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 6:01:03 PM   
    rader


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pauk

    I would advise you not to be (over)confident about your's numerous air bases at HI. Allies will recive B29 soon, if they didnt already, and they can shut down your AFs. It will be much more difficult task than it was in Solomons, but with this current air model, "the bombers will always get trough" it is certainly doable. And he has many choices, he can put pressure on closer bases (within his fighter radius) and suddently attack your rear AFs which will be weaker defended (just one example)...

    You dont have many options, except massing base forces and construction units at Home islands. I would pull out all BFs from the frontline (Burma, southern DEI, New Britain...) and move them to Home islands (anyway, Allies can shut down all your AFs at the frontline, if they want (but i suspect they will be concentrated on HI). Ofc, i would leave a significant air support at your big hubs (Bangkok and nearby bases, Singapore, oil centers...)

    Where is KB at the moment? perhaps you could set an trap for Greyjoy... showing him near Hokkaido (so he will be careful with his supply transprots and navy, and he will have to strenghten his CAP - what means less fts on sweep over HI)

    After that you can run under the protection of one your bases.... if you get lucky he might attack KB. With KB fighters on CAP and support from land based FTs you might hurt him (i guess, not sure with this current air combat model).



    Yes, I am moving many forces back to the home islands while simultaneously trying not to cripple my defense on other fronts.

    I bet he could shut down several of the home island airfields as you say, but I think it highly unlikely that he could keep 4-5 interlocking size 9-10 airfields permanently supressed. And I would very much welcome the attempt, because it would take away from his strat bombing, which is much more deadly in the long run.

    Yes, counter-invasion defense will consist of 3 elements:

    1. The IJN ~ all major surface warships are now in home waters ready to pounce on an invasion.
    2. Air attack ~ most of the Japanese air forces are in the home islands ready to respond.
    3. Ground troops ~ all likely invasion beaches are being heavily reinforced

    The problem is that there are so many possible invasion beaches that it's impossible to adequately guard them all, and that since he is comign from so close (even less distance than the cross-channel invasion at Normandy), it will be very tough to respond with air and naval forces in time to make a difference. We are concentrating ground troops on the "red" bases in the north, with air-sea response lile yot play more of a role in the southerly beaches.

    A nasty thought just occured to me. If he landed at Sendai/Iwaki with a large enough force, he might be able to use his tanks to blitz straight into the base in the center of northern Honshu on the turn immediately following the invasion. I must be on guard about this possibility. I am reinforcing both that base (the high ground), and the adjacent beaches accordingly.

    The allies have been absolutely dead quiet in all other theaters (appart from a minor overland skirmish in New Guinea near Lae). I suspect he has withdrawn almost all troops from everywhere on the map to maximize his force in Hokkaido for a Honshu landing (or possibly an amphibious operation vs. the Bonins/Ryukus/Formosa). I bet he has taken that 10,000 AV indian army around the world and it is now in Hokkaido. I know he has at least 2000 AV in the Solomons/NG, but other than that, he could have everything else in Hokkaido by now. Anyone have a guess to how much AV the Allies can amass in mid-1944 if it's all in the same place?

    The KB is mostly split up out raiding supply lines (we've sunk about 20+ AKs in the last month or so, but not much to write home about actually - it is more of a diversion from the main show). I'm treating them a bit like the confederate cavalry under Nathan Bedford Forest trying to get around Sherman's army and attack the rear. While trying to avoid his carriers, I'm positioning them to interdict convoys leaving the US West Coast. In fact, I seriously considered (and am still considering) a port strike raid on a US West coast city. Might be a first for 1944.

    (in reply to pauk)
    Post #: 101
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 6:13:51 PM   
    pauk


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rader



    The problem is that there are so many possible invasion beaches that it's impossible to adequately guard them all, and that since he is comign from so close (even less distance than the cross-channel invasion at Normandy), it will be very tough to respond with air and naval forces in time to make a difference. We are concentrating ground troops on the "red" bases in the north, with air-sea response lile yot play more of a role in the southerly beaches.


    I bet he has taken that 10,000 AV indian army around the world and it is now in Hokkaido. I know he has at least 2000 AV in the Solomons/NG, but other than that, he could have everything else in Hokkaido by now. Anyone have a guess to how much AV the Allies can amass in mid-1944 if it's all in the same place?

    The KB is mostly split up out raiding supply lines (we've sunk about 20+ AKs in the last month or so, but not much to write home about actually - it is more of a diversion from the main show).

    In fact, I seriously considered (and am still considering) a port strike raid on a US West coast city. Might be a first for 1944.



    yes, i know what you are talking about, for succesfull counter attack during invasion you need to have 10:1 and perfect coordination - which is not going to happend. So you are right, you just cant defend everything :(

    lol, its funny about Indian army in Hokkaido. Dont get me wrong, i found Grey as honourable player and i would do the same in his boots, but its really wierd to have Indians in polar circle instead having them fighting for their Homeland

    I had to say this, cause i heard complaints about using kamis at 44 K feets

    well, i actually encourage your madman idea about raiding west coast. You might hurt him a lot... ofc the risk is enormous, but if you plan this raid carefully it could work ?

    So, if you plan to do that, do it asap !

    banzai!





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    Post #: 102
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 6:20:57 PM   
    rader


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    Greyjoy sent me this in a letter to my air force commander this morning who nearly choked on his boiled seaweed...









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    Post #: 103
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 6:22:29 PM   
    rader


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pauk

    I had to say this, cause i heard complaints about using kamis at 44 K feets



    Actually, Nemo told me to try this, but it didn't work. Unfortunately spitfires and Thunderbolts have really high ceilings. Only works against Hellcats...

    But you're right, I actually do think trying to fly over an enemy's ceiling is a bit gamey. Maybe I shouldn't do it? Any other opinions out there? I wonder if his 4Es could fly over might fighters?? Didn't B-29s have really high ceilings? (EDIT: Actually, no, according to the database, his 4es generally can't fly above 34,000 ft...).

    < Message edited by rader -- 12/17/2011 7:54:44 PM >

    (in reply to pauk)
    Post #: 104
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 6:52:49 PM   
    Crackaces


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rader

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pauk

    I had to say this, cause i heard complaints about using kamis at 44 K feets



    Actually, Nemo told me to try this, but it didn't work. Unfortunately spitfires and Thunderbolts have really high ceilings. Only works against Hellcats...

    But you're right, I actually do think trying to fly over an enemy's ceiling is a bit gamey. Maybe I shouldn't do it? Any other opinions out there? I wonder if his 4Es could fly over might fighters?? Didn't B-29s have really high ceilings? (EDIT: Actually, no, according to the database, his $es generally can't fly above 34,000 ft...).


    Rader .. I have commented on this before in the war room but..

    First there is service ceiling and operational ceiling the game allows one to fly at service ceilings without any of the side effects .. flying higher than 28K feet even with O2 is risky .. above 34K in a 'recipt' engine is dangerious .. the operational losses would be extraordinary because of heat .. you would think "hey its so cold up there that would help" but the air density is so low or because of high density-altitude ...no real cooling effect occurs .. instead one uses excess fuel to cool the engine ...turbochargers really take the heat at these altitudes ...

    So a B-29's service celing might be around 33K feet but the operational ceiling was closer to 24 - 28K and often flown at these levels ..

    quote:

    Maximum speed 357 mph at 30,000 feet, 306 mph at sea level. Maximum continuous cruising speed 342 mph at 30,000 feet. Economical cruising speed 220 mph at 25,000 feet. Initial climb rate 900 feet per minute at combat weight. An altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 38 minutes. Service ceiling 33,600 feet. Maximum range was 3250 miles at 25,000 feet with 5,000 pound bomb load. Practical operational radius was 1,600-1,800 miles. Maximum ferry range was 5,600 miles, rising to 6,000 miles with the extra fuel. http://flgrube1.tripod.com/id26.html


    But in the game I can tool around at 33K with zero side effects and get maxium range etc ..


    Then there are the phyisological effects of high altitude ..at 18K one can experince hypoxia .. at 24K .. well its assured if any oxygen problems occur .. 28K begins the process where the carbooxy hemoglobin curve gets in ther terrority of O2 leaving the body because the pressure inside is so much higher than outside .. unpressurized flights above 34K require sealed masks and special oxygen equipment .. 41K requires flight suits for very long (itsa real emergency to have a Lear lose pressure at 41K ] ..and there is a huge difference between 41-44K feet .. any failure of equipment means instant death including the freezing of O2 lines ..ask the Pilots for the Payne Stewart debacle ...

    So therotically an airplane has a serivice ceiling into the stratosphere but in reality aircraft are flown at their operational ceilings ..

    But this is a game not a similation ..


    I posted in the War Room responding to this problem some articles I have published in Mooney magazines on this subject ..[Note the editor would catch my misspellings ..butnot always if you look carefully ... ]

    (in reply to rader)
    Post #: 105
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 7:10:21 PM   
    DTurtle

     

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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rader

    Actually, Nemo told me to try this, but it didn't work. Unfortunately spitfires and Thunderbolts have really high ceilings. Only works against Hellcats...

    But you're right, I actually do think trying to fly over an enemy's ceiling is a bit gamey. Maybe I shouldn't do it? Any other opinions out there? I wonder if his 4Es could fly over might fighters?? Didn't B-29s have really high ceilings? (EDIT: Actually, no, according to the database, his $es generally can't fly above 34,000 ft...).

    Well, the other thing Nemo has used to a lot of success is to come in at 100 feet - if you distract his fighters with other planes, those kamis can apparently get in with very low warning/engagement times.

    (in reply to rader)
    Post #: 106
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 7:13:01 PM   
    Canoerebel


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    rader, earlier in the game you marched a big army (five divisions?) across the Owen Stanley mountains in New Guinea.  Why would you worry about aircraft altitudes if you were comfortable doing that? 

    P.S. It's hard to read the "tone" in an email - If I could convey my tone here, it would be curiosity only, not accusatory.

    (in reply to Crackaces)
    Post #: 107
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 7:38:55 PM   
    pauk


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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rader

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pauk

    I had to say this, cause i heard complaints about using kamis at 44 K feets



    Actually, Nemo told me to try this, but it didn't work. Unfortunately spitfires and Thunderbolts have really high ceilings. Only works against Hellcats...

    But you're right, I actually do think trying to fly over an enemy's ceiling is a bit gamey. Maybe I shouldn't do it? Any other opinions out there? I wonder if his 4Es could fly over might fighters?? Didn't B-29s have really high ceilings? (EDIT: Actually, no, according to the database, his $es generally can't fly above 34,000 ft...).



    nah mate. You shouldnt listen other guys. It is your's and Grey's game and only you guys should impose rules. Gamey questions are sensible thing.

    is gamey to use northern route and conquer Hokkaido in 44? Is it game to attack and conquer India? Is it gamey to play Sir Robin defence?

    Everything can be justified. So kami at 44 can be justified same as attack via northern route. So its all up to you guys.



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    (in reply to rader)
    Post #: 108
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 7:45:11 PM   
    pauk


    Posts: 4162
    Joined: 10/21/2001
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

    rader, earlier in the game you marched a big army (five divisions?) across the Owen Stanley mountains in New Guinea.  Why would you worry about aircraft altitudes if you were comfortable doing that? 

    P.S. It's hard to read the "tone" in an email - If I could convey my tone here, it would be curiosity only, not accusatory.





    You see rader, i was refering to that kind of posts

    but lets get back to the game. Did you place your subs in northern Pacific... especially those equipped with float planes?

    You may send a few PBs as picket ships as early warning system. Dont worry about gamey questions. Every Allied opponent used picket ships against me.

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    Post #: 109
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 7:51:59 PM   
    pauk


    Posts: 4162
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: DTurtle

    Well, the other thing Nemo has used to a lot of success is to come in at 100 feet - if you distract his fighters with other planes, those kamis can apparently get in with very low warning/engagement times.


    That sounds like plan. Mixing kamis at high and (extremely) low altitude, accompanied with escort on high and medium altitude could result with some sucess


    _____________________________


    (in reply to DTurtle)
    Post #: 110
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 7:56:32 PM   
    rader


    Posts: 910
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crackaces


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: rader

    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pauk

    I had to say this, cause i heard complaints about using kamis at 44 K feets



    Actually, Nemo told me to try this, but it didn't work. Unfortunately spitfires and Thunderbolts have really high ceilings. Only works against Hellcats...

    But you're right, I actually do think trying to fly over an enemy's ceiling is a bit gamey. Maybe I shouldn't do it? Any other opinions out there? I wonder if his 4Es could fly over might fighters?? Didn't B-29s have really high ceilings? (EDIT: Actually, no, according to the database, his $es generally can't fly above 34,000 ft...).


    Rader .. I have commented on this before in the war room but..

    First there is service ceiling and operational ceiling the game allows one to fly at service ceilings without any of the side effects .. flying higher than 28K feet even with O2 is risky .. above 34K in a 'recipt' engine is dangerious .. the operational losses would be extraordinary because of heat .. you would think "hey its so cold up there that would help" but the air density is so low or because of high density-altitude ...no real cooling effect occurs .. instead one uses excess fuel to cool the engine ...turbochargers really take the heat at these altitudes ...

    So a B-29's service celing might be around 33K feet but the operational ceiling was closer to 24 - 28K and often flown at these levels ..

    quote:

    Maximum speed 357 mph at 30,000 feet, 306 mph at sea level. Maximum continuous cruising speed 342 mph at 30,000 feet. Economical cruising speed 220 mph at 25,000 feet. Initial climb rate 900 feet per minute at combat weight. An altitude of 20,000 feet could be attained in 38 minutes. Service ceiling 33,600 feet. Maximum range was 3250 miles at 25,000 feet with 5,000 pound bomb load. Practical operational radius was 1,600-1,800 miles. Maximum ferry range was 5,600 miles, rising to 6,000 miles with the extra fuel. http://flgrube1.tripod.com/id26.html


    But in the game I can tool around at 33K with zero side effects and get maxium range etc ..


    Then there are the phyisological effects of high altitude ..at 18K one can experince hypoxia .. at 24K .. well its assured if any oxygen problems occur .. 28K begins the process where the carbooxy hemoglobin curve gets in ther terrority of O2 leaving the body because the pressure inside is so much higher than outside .. unpressurized flights above 34K require sealed masks and special oxygen equipment .. 41K requires flight suits for very long (itsa real emergency to have a Lear lose pressure at 41K ] ..and there is a huge difference between 41-44K feet .. any failure of equipment means instant death including the freezing of O2 lines ..ask the Pilots for the Payne Stewart debacle ...

    So therotically an airplane has a serivice ceiling into the stratosphere but in reality aircraft are flown at their operational ceilings ..

    But this is a game not a similation ..


    I posted in the War Room responding to this problem some articles I have published in Mooney magazines on this subject ..[Note the editor would catch my misspellings ..butnot always if you look carefully ... ]


    Good summary... I wish these effects were modelled...

    (in reply to Crackaces)
    Post #: 111
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 7:59:00 PM   
    Olorin


    Posts: 617
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    Rader,

    If the Emperor is sneaky he could get KB off Seattle and trash his B-29 factory there. Seattle is also the starting point of the allied SLOC to Hokkaido, so it could worth the risk. The difficulty is to get KB there and back again while avoiding detection and the allied carriers.

    For such a move to succeed, you 'd need to know where his carriers are i.e. you 'd need to wait until he commits them in the next big operation of his. That means that you won't have KB available to meet the next allied offensive, so it's a pickle no doubt about that.

    Just my two cents.

    _____________________________

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    (in reply to pauk)
    Post #: 112
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 8:06:45 PM   
    rader


    Posts: 910
    Joined: 9/13/2004
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

    rader, earlier in the game you marched a big army (five divisions?) across the Owen Stanley mountains in New Guinea.  Why would you worry about aircraft altitudes if you were comfortable doing that? 

    P.S. It's hard to read the "tone" in an email - If I could convey my tone here, it would be curiosity only, not accusatory.


    I've never found you to be anything than perfectly polite CR

    That's an interesting question CR. I didn't think that was particularly gamey, although I do wish supply draw were harder overland. I don't think an argument like "it shouldn't be that easy to draw supply through jungle" has ever stopped an allied invasion of Burma, so why should the Japanese player be punished for doing the same thing? In most games, the allies launch an early invasion of Burma from India to evict the Japanese and benefit from this early supply draw.

    Actually, I found out such a move could be done because my opponent Jzanes did the exact same thing to me in reverse - he landed a big army at Port Moresby and then marched it overland to crush my garrison in Buna. He also launched a very successful Burma invasion from India, relying somewhat on air supply, but I think largely on supply draw through the jungle.

    Additionally, while I am aware that the Japanese historically had trouble attacking Port Moresby overland due to logistical difficulties, not only was this their actual RL plan, but didn't the allies attack back across these mountains on the Kokoda trail during the Buna-Gona offensive?

    The fact that something similar actually occured historically, something similar was planned historically, and most allied players use easy supply draw to their advantae all suggest to me that this is only slightly gamey ~ although I do wish the code was better at modelling logistical problems, and I would be the first to support a HR limiting this kind of move. As I've said before, if you think something's broken, we should HR it rather than relying on people to not commit actions because they are "gamey" (unless they are gamey in the extreme).

    Also, this move can be countered by defending Port Moresby/Burma/wherever, and I think there are some negative impacts of the long supply line in the game (less effective attacks, etc.). Whereas you can't really do much if you can't reach the altitude of enemy planes. A tactic that can't be countered is also more likely to be in the "extremely gamey" camp. I personally don't consider marching an army through the jungle to be anywhere near the same league as striking with uninterceptable aircraft.

    < Message edited by rader -- 12/17/2011 8:10:02 PM >

    (in reply to Canoerebel)
    Post #: 113
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 8:12:20 PM   
    rader


    Posts: 910
    Joined: 9/13/2004
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pauk


    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

    rader, earlier in the game you marched a big army (five divisions?) across the Owen Stanley mountains in New Guinea.  Why would you worry about aircraft altitudes if you were comfortable doing that? 

    P.S. It's hard to read the "tone" in an email - If I could convey my tone here, it would be curiosity only, not accusatory.





    You see rader, i was refering to that kind of posts

    but lets get back to the game. Did you place your subs in northern Pacific... especially those equipped with float planes?

    You may send a few PBs as picket ships as early warning system. Dont worry about gamey questions. Every Allied opponent used picket ships against me.



    I actually think a good HR is to be able to use warships (even patrol boats) as pickets but not random AKLs.

    (in reply to pauk)
    Post #: 114
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 8:12:44 PM   
    Crackaces


    Posts: 2607
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    Status: offline
    Its a game not a similation by any means ..and WitP AE really has some uniqueness in terms of being a game .. more like a movie where we play the parts differently but the story always ends the same ..IJ sign surrender orders in Tokyo Bay .. A game might better be defined by decisions that alter play and change the results. Scenario #2 changes things a bit , but as you just experienced no matter your conquests with all kinds of home rule restrictions ... and intersesting play on your part ..GreyJoy is in the catbird's seat ..

    To me, Home rules might not be as focused on similating history or reality but to make it a game. Player 'A' can do 'X' and there is absouletly no trade-offs or decisions ... and doing so unbalances the situation in some way where things are not fun ..Night bombing was sort of in this category becase fighters were nurfed and bombers could just have their way .. Michealm fixed that .. That said, I agreed to a home rule where submarine forces will take one day off per 7 days at sea .. just because the game does not account for fatigue being in a closed space for months on end ..it made the game feel better for my opponet who was a "bubblehead" ...

    One neat thing about this forum is that the concept of "gamey" and "right" take on new definitions. I try and tell teenagers that right can be defined if you feel comfortable with the issue being published in the local paper. If you feel ashamed .. then it is probably not right .. gamey follows this I beleive in posting in this forum ... but pauk would disagree I bet ..

    (in reply to rader)
    Post #: 115
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 8:13:45 PM   
    rader


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    On the house rule, think some people may not like house rules, but I totally love them! In my view they help customize the game to the level of comfort of the two players involved (waht is ok, what is too gamey, adding political restrictions, etc.). If I had my way, I'd probably have a list of house rules 10 pages long for a game this complex!

    (in reply to rader)
    Post #: 116
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 8:14:51 PM   
    rader


    Posts: 910
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Olorin

    Rader,

    If the Emperor is sneaky he could get KB off Seattle and trash his B-29 factory there. Seattle is also the starting point of the allied SLOC to Hokkaido, so it could worth the risk. The difficulty is to get KB there and back again while avoiding detection and the allied carriers.

    For such a move to succeed, you 'd need to know where his carriers are i.e. you 'd need to wait until he commits them in the next big operation of his. That means that you won't have KB available to meet the next allied offensive, so it's a pickle no doubt about that.

    Just my two cents.


    The problem is that even if I did hit an allied factory, it would be extremely easy and quick for him to repair it. It might set him back 15 days or so at best. It would be better to kill ships IMHO.

    (in reply to Olorin)
    Post #: 117
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 8:17:02 PM   
    rader


    Posts: 910
    Joined: 9/13/2004
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: Crackaces

    One neat thing about this forum is that the concept of "gamey" and "right" take on new definitions. I try and tell teenagers that right can be defined if you feel comfortable with the issue being published in the local paper. If you feel ashamed .. then it is probably not right .. gamey follows this I beleive in posting in this forum ... but pauk would disagree I bet ..


    I absolutely agree with this, but the problem is that one person's gamey can in some cases seem perfectly reasonable to another player. That's a large part of what HRs are about IMO. And I also view house rules as somewhat open to negotiation during the game if problems arise later.


    (in reply to Crackaces)
    Post #: 118
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 8:20:57 PM   
    rader


    Posts: 910
    Joined: 9/13/2004
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: pauk

    is gamey to use northern route and conquer Hokkaido in 44? Is it game to attack and conquer India? Is it gamey to play Sir Robin defence?



    This is a good point. I would say that these are not gamey in that they probably shouldn't be disallowed - it should be up to the allied player to choose what to do with their forces. But I do get the sense that these are certainly "ahistorical" in that the player here is the *supreme dictator* with total strategic command of all their forces. Since there is no haggling to be done with other services or nations and no real lives at risk, players can conduct much of of an "all-in" aggressive attack. Would the allied snap invasion of Hokkaido in 1944 made it past all the checks and balances to be carried out historically? Would the allies have virtually abandonned the pacific or almost all of india to the Japanese advance? I very, very much doubt it. But I certainly don't think Greyjoy acted innapropriately in the least.

    That being said, I do think the game could use some more rewards and penalties for these kind of actions and certainly a more detailed political system. I mean, we know the name and individual statistics of each pilot, but there are no more political details concerning grand stategic goals and inter-service/inter-allied cooperation than restricted commands and Russia doesn't activate until August 1945? That strikes me as really odd...

    < Message edited by rader -- 12/17/2011 8:24:16 PM >

    (in reply to pauk)
    Post #: 119
    RE: Caging the Tiger~ Rader (J) vs. GreyJoy (A) - 12/17/2011 8:44:15 PM   
    rader


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    Also, the only reason I think it is a question if it is gamey is because he actually does have planes that can intercept at that altitude, although not all are able to. If I was doing it with a plane that absolutely could not be intercepted (flying above all his fighters), there would be no doubt in my mind that it would be gamey in the extreme.

    (in reply to rader)
    Post #: 120
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